LS SAYS A REGEN EVERY 2 HOURS IS NORMAL (Update) 600hrs, 50 regens

[JCoastie]

this tractor has no foot throttle. My plan is to see if the dealer will check the injectors, soot production, thermostat, possibly the turbo getting too much oil, etc, those seem to be the main take away's recommended so far. Basically look to see if it is producing too much soot, the cause and the fix. But please keep the recommendations coming.

 

[ovrszd]

It ran *95hrs* before its first normal regen, then started regening every 8.9hrs on avg after that, and that just ain't right.

LS telling you, after looking at it *3 times* for the same issue, throwing parts at it, then telling you, 'Oh, every 2hrs is normal so your OK', when that didn't fix it... is complete BS.

I'll go "all in" here. This saga will not change. Nothing will happen. A year from now the OP "might" post back with his past year's data. It will look just like what he displays now.

Use the tractor, ignore the data. If it cranks every time you want to use it, and performs as you would expect, exempting regen frequencies, use it.

 

[Oh Lordy HepMe HepME]

And that helps the OP HOW?

True he certainly didnt help OP but clearly helps others looking at used tractors reading this thread. Maybe they'll buy an older model machine without all the BS newer models have?
It wasnt politely stated but I understand his point though.
Just say'n...

 

[Will S]

this tractor has no foot throttle. My plan is to see if the dealer will check the injectors, soot production, thermostat, possibly the turbo getting too much oil, etc, those seem to be the main take away's recommended so far. Basically look to see if it is producing too much soot, the cause and the fix. But please keep the recommendations coming.

The problem you face is with getting them to do anything, since they (the manufacturer) say even ever 2 hours is normal, that becomes the "normal" for LS. It's their way of denying warranty service, to correct what pretty much ALL of us agree, is definitely not normal.

So, what can you do? You could put pressure on them through various social media sites, and that may get their attention. Things like this can cost them many tens of thousands of dollars in lost revenue, vs what it might cost them to correct this issue.

OTOH, if there are a lot of in-warranty LS tractors with this same issue, they may be claiming "it's normal", so they are not doing a lot of warranty work that they could escape.

Who knows why someone in LS would say that, but I'm glad you started this thread, since that definitely removes them from consideration in any future purchase by anyone in this family.

 

[JCoastie]

I sent all the detailed info from my initial post in a PDF to the dealership last Monday and included a link to this forum thread. I let them know I'd like them to investigate an excessive soot issue under warranty, injectors, thermostat/temp, turbo, etc. They sent that along to LS, and said they'd contact me when they heard back. I stopped in yesterday (Friday) since I had not heard from them yet, letting them know I'm still waiting....Out of sight, out of mind.

 

[JCoastie]

it's been 10 days, but I finally got an update after some prompting

LS service techs were at the factory last week, they discussed the issue. The next step they want us to do is install a new EGR valve and re check the software on the ECU. The EGR valve should be here next week...

Will post the outcome after the install and a bit of use.

 

[tractortroof]

Find someone to delete it. My Kubota regens every 16 hours. $2000 to delete the bothersome software.

Some regen systems will simply destroy the engine.

 

[rademamj1]

Though we never found out from the OP, the true cause of his short Regen cycles on his LS; I still favor a bad injector, that is providing far more fuel than normal as the probable cause. That also would account for the "strong diesel odor" from his exhaust.

 

[deezler]

^ agreed, good candidate there. Pretty sure it isn't the EGR valve causing extra regens..... oof.

 

[Capt99]

Try blowing out radiator min regen is 4 hrs on non LS motor ie 2015-2018 models Mine was 2 things Very dusty radiator core and a small stainless steel seal on injector tough part to get but my dealer found a great substitute at hardware store and for 5$ replaced it blew out dust cleaned air filter, another big culprit for a very low price vice a 2300$ injector Part of regen problem is air flow sensors detect low flow which is interpreted as carbon build up thus requiring regen Things to try clean radiator, air filter and always run motor at at least 2000 + rpm these motors are designed to run hot and higher rpm Down side is fuel consumption but hey! Anything for the green environmental folks
Added note, my dealer has me blowing dust from engine area before every job Has worked great for me ReGeN is right at 4 hrs cycle with a regen of 32 min I have a 2015 XR4046

 

[deezler]

You're saying your XR4046 regens every 4 hours? For 32 minutes each time? That's horrible.

 

[Capt99]

Yes that’s what is advertised and I talked to an engineer Regen doesn’t affect use I keep track of hours with grease maker so I don’t have to leave it running when jobs done

 

[rademamj1]

We had a thread here about 3 years ago, regarding regen cycles from owners. From all the hundreds of posts, it appeared that a coherent picture developed:

1. The higher rpm you operated your tractor, the longer the time between Regens.

2. Most Regens were passive, meaning owners could still work their tractors during a Regen cycle.

3. Tractors with higher horsepower, had longer times between Regens. Most tractors under 40Hp had Regens between 21 to 30 hours. Tractors between 40 to 75HP had Regens between 28 to 45hours. While Tractors over 75HP typically showed Regens between 38 to 60 hours.

4. Bad injectors accounted for a surprisingly 70% of Regen problems.

5. Kubota owners appeared to be the happiest, because their Tier4 Regen systems rarely caused problems.

6. No where in the thread did LS tractor Owners appear to have 4 hour Regen cycles.

 

[ljjhouser]

Yes that’s what is advertised and I talked to an engineer Regen doesn’t affect use I keep track of hours with grease maker so I don’t have to leave it running when jobs done

Hello Capt99. Welcome to TBN. Do I understand that post correctly - REgen with LS at every 4 hours is advertised by them and really is considered normal? For a couple years I have found it hard to understand why there is so much controversy relating to Teir 4. But it that is true, now I understand why. I think my tractor runs about 30-35 hours or more between regen. I thought that was normal.
I must have misunderstood what was being referred to.
Again, welcome to the board.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Though we never found out from the OP, the true cause of his short Regen cycles on his LS; I still favor a bad injector, that is providing far more fuel than normal as the probable cause. That also would account for the "strong diesel odor" from his exhaust.

I have one injector that I strongly believe leaks a little bit while the engine is warming up as I have a slight misfire during warm-up and then when the engine does warm up to a proper operating temperature, everything seemingly works just fine. The tier IV spec is to have thermostats open at 160°F, which in any place that is cool or cold, puts the ECU into a warm-up, fuel-enrichment map. Compounding the issue, a lukewarm engine may not be able to burn all the fuel that is injected, spewing out what doesn't burn right into the lousy DPF and plugging it up far faster than designed. For this reason, the field-fix among fleet operators having overly frequent regeneration cycles is to install a warmer thermostat thereby getting the engine up to a proper operating temperature and off of the enriched warm-up fuel map.

 

[deezler]

I bought my Kioti CK3510 with 103 hours on it. I have 165 now and I have never detected it regen once. I am a mech engineer who dyno tests engines daily, so I'm what you might call hyper sensitive to engine noises and modes. So either mine is doing all passive regens (likely, I keep RPMs up and occasionally work it hard) or I have a problem brewing, lol.

 

[George2615]

Hello Capt99. Welcome to TBN. Do I understand that post correctly - REgen with LS at every 4 hours is advertised by them and really is considered normal? For a couple years I have found it hard to understand why there is so much controversy relating to Teir 4. But it that is true, now I understand why. I think my tractor runs about 30-35 hours or more between regen. I thought that was normal.
I must have misunderstood what was being referred to.
Again, welcome to the board.

Some of the older LS tractors have the Shibaura engine. The owners manual says normal regen cycle occurs about every 5 hours (+ or -). Newer LS tractors have an LS engine and normally does a regen about every 50 hours.

 

[FERLING]

Try blowing out radiator min regen is 4 hrs on non LS motor ie 2015-2018 models Mine was 2 things Very dusty radiator core and a small stainless steel seal on injector tough part to get but my dealer found a great substitute at hardware store and for 5$ replaced it blew out dust cleaned air filter, another big culprit for a very low price vice a 2300$ injector Part of regen problem is air flow sensors detect low flow which is interpreted as carbon build up thus requiring regen Things to try clean radiator, air filter and always run motor at at least 2000 + rpm these motors are designed to run hot and higher rpm Down side is fuel consumption but hey! Anything for the green environmental folks
Added note, my dealer has me blowing dust from engine area before every job Has worked great for me ReGeN is right at 4 hrs cycle with a regen of 32 min I have a 2015 XR4046

You're saying your XR4046 regens every 4 hours? For 32 minutes each time? That's horrible.

I bought my Kioti CK3510 with 103 hours on it. I have 165 now and I have never detected it regen once. I am a mech engineer who dyno tests engines daily, so I'm what you might call hyper sensitive to engine noises and modes. So either mine is doing all passive regens (likely, I keep RPMs up and occasionally work it hard) or I have a problem brewing, lol.

LS SAYS A REGEN EVERY 2 HOURS IS NORMAL

Here's my regen history, the best I have record of it. I'm sure I missed a few early on before I recognized there was a real problem and started keeping track. I have been having excessive regens almost since the tractor was purchased.

Dealership has been great at getting the tractor in for service and trying a few things, but unfortunately the problem has not been resolved. They called me yesterday after hearing back from LS and informed me that LS’ stance is that regeneration every 2 hours is normal. If regeneration is occurring more frequently than 2 hours apart, there could be an issue.

I find that unacceptable. I use the tractor at home, it is not a business machine, but based on an 8 hour work day, what should be a normal regen cycle of around 50 hours, would give me 6+ days between regens, and LS is telling me that 4 times per day is normal!

First some qualifying information.

• Tractor is run consistently between 1800 and 2400 RPM
• Always used on road diesel filled from high turnover stations in 5 gallon cans, I fill 2 or 3 cans, 10-15 gallons at a time, so there has been a lot of fuel turnover, not the same, or old fuel being used. Tried with and without fuel additive (Power Kleen or Howes) no change. At one point LS blamed fuel quality, but refused to test the fuel in the tank to prove it.
• DPF switch left in regeneration mode, I have never inhibited regeneration.

Occasionally before a regen, the DPF regeneration indicator will blink on/off at 1 sec intervals indicating a >120% soot load, then soon after it will go through a normal regen cycle without me needing to initiate it via the DPF switch. I have not kept a detailed record of when the indicator flashes before a regen, but I have noticed it several times (and I’m sure I missed it blinking a few times too.) Normally it seems to go right into regen mode (solid light) indicating 100% soot load, not >120%, but not always.

I’ve also had a few regens complete and then within 5 minutes the tractor goes into limp mode which a restart clears. That has happened maybe 3 times or so. I don’t recall what was displayed on the instrument panel other than the red ! (Vehicle control error warning indicator.)

Another thing I have noticed more recently, this may be indicative or not; I have noticed a much more pronounced diesel odor in the exhaust than in the past. While nothing like my previous non tier IV motor which was sooty, the MT240 used to burn extremely clean with no noticeable exhaust odor, now there is a diesel exhaust smell, not horrible, but definitely noticeable. Maybe now because it has 300 hours that is to be expected. There is no visible soot or black smoke, just a diesel odor that was not there previously. I may also hear injector or valve chatter that is louder then before as well.

Additionally there were a couple regens run at the dealership during troubleshooting and maintenance which I don't have listed below.

Regen time on hour meter, all regens completed successfully after ~15 minutes:

4 (ran by dealer due to error code, day after I brought it home)
101
106
112
115 (Dealership replaced DPF Sensor, removed and cleaned DPF)
118
119
148
165
175
187
191
197
213
224
234
250
254 (Dealership replaced ECU and DPF sensor. Invoice notes “REGEN OCCURRING TO OFTEN WITH NO SOOT LOAD”)
259 (In Dealership for service, ran diagnostic, nothing significant noted)
262
269
276
300
307

I'm looking for advice on how to move forward. First I need to be able to get the dealer to move forward since LS who is paying for the warranty work says this is NORMAL OPERATION.

Next I see 2 different paths.

1. DPF System has a fault
2. DPF system working normally, tractor producing too much soot

Comments?

New FPT engine: Tier 4 Final compliant; higher torque rise
Inside, the WORKMASTER 50, 60 and 70 models are powered by new FPT Tier 4 Final emissions compliant, 3-cylinder turbo-charged engines.

To meet tough Tier 4 Final emissions standards, the New Holland emissions treatment system uses a combination of internal exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) to control nitrogen oxides (NOx) and a particulate matter (PM) catalyst. The PM Catalyst system has two unique sections— a diesel oxidation catalyst (DOC) that turns nitrous oxide (NO) into nitrogen dioxide (NO2) and a soot collection and combustion chamber that eliminates the remaining soot. Unlike other tractors that require extra fluids, or that use a diesel particulate filter (DPF) that must be “regenerated,” the New Holland system is completely automatic, with no need to stop working while the tractor regenerates.

New Holland introduces WORKMASTER tractors with Tier 4 Final engines

 

[Rc4510]

the early shibura engines,mines a 2014 4046 are programed to do a regen every 4 hrs.the dpf might not be full of soot but the regen will still kick in at 4 hours.mine does the burn for about 20-30 min.you can shut off tractor and it will finish its regen when ever you go back to work.kinda a waste of fuel but so far mines been trouble free

 

[RobertEH]

Brand new Tractor owner here. I picked up an LS MT235HE last month and so far I am having a blast! My first regen cycle was at about 23 hours.

So far I have no implements that use a PTO so I have been keeping my RMPs as low as possible/needed. Generally I work at idle, or around 1500 RPM. Will this create more Regen cycles than operating at higher RPMs would? (e.g. does operating at lower RMPs not generate the engine temperatures needed to burn off soot during normal operation)? Would it be advisable to run the engine up around 2500 RPM for a few minutes every time I have it out to burn off soot?