LS SAYS A REGEN EVERY 2 HOURS IS NORMAL (Update) 600hrs, 50 regens

[Will S]

I didn't say that LS regen interval was normal; the manufacturer did. Show me your source of information where EPA says regens shall not occur more frequently than x number of hours?

I agree, it's a BS statement on the part of the manufacturer, but if they claim it's working normal (emissions below EPA mandate), how can you prove that it is not? By saying other brands of tractors don't regen this often?

 

[Williy]

I wonder have they checked all the wiring to
see if properly grounded? Perhaps the
sensor inside the canister needs a bath
as it could be gummed up causing the
regen's so soon???

willy

 

[Fxfymn413]

Show me your source of information where EPA says regens shall not occur more frequently than x number of hours?

I do not have access to that info., but the EPA does and that is why the OP should contact them.

I spent a large part of my working life dealing with performance standards and how they are implemented. I can guarantee that somewhere in the performance standard for Tier 4 emissions there is some kind of statement that says how many times per x number of hours the system can regen under actual working conditions. Otherwise the builder could use small, less costly, equipment that regens very frequently and consequently wears out very fast.

What this really comes down to is an LS technician with what I assume is a proprietary program from LS on his/her laptop needs to read the ECM and compare it to what the factory program has established as normal operating parameters for that particular engine. Just because it is not throwing a code doesn't mean it is operating correctly.

 

[Will S]

I do not have access to that info., but the EPA does and that is why the OP should contact them.

I spent a large part of my working life dealing with performance standards and how they are implemented. I can guarantee that somewhere in the performance standard for Tier 4 emissions there is some kind of statement that says how many times per x number of hours the system can regen under actual working conditions. Otherwise the builder could use small, less costly, equipment that regens very frequently and consequently wears out very fast.

What this really comes down to is an LS technician with what I assume is a proprietary program from LS on his/her laptop needs to read the ECM and compare it to what the factory program has established as normal operating parameters for that particular engine. Just because it is not throwing a code doesn't mean it is operating correctly.

Fxfy,
I understand where you are coming from, but EPA does not specify how engine designs reduce emissions, so I don't think they would specify a limit on how frequently regens occur, (where that's the chosen method of compliance). If, as you say, a manufacturer used "small less costly equipment" that wears out very fast, I don't see how that would be a concern of the EPA, since EPA requires all engine manufacturers to warrant the emissions system for a specified number or years.

So a manufacturer that used a system that wears out too fast, will cost that company (recurring losses), for the warranty replacements.

If EPA has in fact specified a regen minimum interval, that document should be available to the public (google search). I searched epa.gov and several other sites, and didn't find anything relating to that. If such a document exists, you should be able to find it.

 

[sd455dan]

Fxfy,
I understand where you are coming from, but EPA does not specify how engine designs reduce emissions, so I don't think they would specify a limit on how frequently regens occur, (where that's the chosen method of compliance). If, as you say, a manufacturer used "small less costly equipment" that wears out very fast, I don't see how that would be a concern of the EPA, since EPA requires all engine manufacturers to warrant the emissions system for a specified number or years.

So a manufacturer that used a system that wears out too fast, will cost that company (recurring losses), for the warranty replacements.

If EPA has in fact specified a regen minimum interval, that document should be available to the public (google search). I searched epa.gov and several other sites, and didn't find anything relating to that. If such a document exists, you should be able to find it.

Just a question here.
During regeneration aren't pollutant's released from the exhaust system increased???
If so, and if most tractors do it every 50-200 hours, wouldn't that mean that this tractor is in fact exceeding overall allowable pollution output per it's hours of overall use?

ps. google search of basic terms of DPF regeneration and pollution yielded this:

Does DPF regeneration cause pollution?


A side effect of DPF regeneration is the increased emission of gaseous pollutants and particulate matter

 

[rademamj1]

I came in late on this thread, however this sounds very much like an fuel injector problem. One injector or multiple injectors are providing an over supply of fuel to the engine, and the unburned diesel is forcing short period regens. Most regens tend to be in the 18 to 38 hour cycles. Typically, the larger the engine, the longer the regen period. Two hour regens are definitely a cause for concern. I would strongly encourage your dealer to evaluate the health of your injectors using diagnostic software. They can identify which injector is not supplying the correct fuel.

 

[rScotty]

Fxfy,
I understand where you are coming from, but EPA does not specify how engine designs reduce emissions, so I don't think they would specify a limit on how frequently regens occur, (where that's the chosen method of compliance). If, as you say, a manufacturer used "small less costly equipment" that wears out very fast, I don't see how that would be a concern of the EPA, since EPA requires all engine manufacturers to warrant the emissions system for a specified number or years.

So a manufacturer that used a system that wears out too fast, will cost that company (recurring losses), for the warranty replacements.

If EPA has in fact specified a regen minimum interval, that document should be available to the public (google search). I searched epa.gov and several other sites, and didn't find anything relating to that. If such a document exists, you should be able to find it.

Why doesn't someone just read the EPA regulation and find out? Or call the EPA and ask?

 

[rademamj1]

Just a question here.
During regeneration aren't pollutant's released from the exhaust system increased???
If so, and if most tractors do it every 50-200 hours, wouldn't that mean that this tractor is in fact exceeding overall allowable pollution output per it's hours of overall use?

ps. google search of basic terms of DPF regeneration and pollution yielded this:

Does DPF regeneration cause pollution?


A side effect of DPF regeneration is the increased emission of gaseous pollutants and particulate matter

Tier4 emissions using DOC/DPF certainly don't increase gaseous and particulate emissions, but effectively decrease said emissions and most effectively the diesel particulates. The EPA and industry leaders throughly evaluated moving from Tier3 to Tier4 emissions standards. The typical Tier4 system increased tractor costs about $3200, with the DOC removing most gaseous pollution, while the DPF collects carbon particulates until they are ready for regeneration burn.

In fact, The Tier 4 standards require that emissions of PM and NOx be reduced by about 90% over Tier3 emmisions. Such emission reductions can be achieved through the use of control technologies—including advanced exhaust gas aftertreatment.

At no point does the EPA define needed regeneration intervals or regeneration standards, but rather stays focused on particulate emission standards.

 

[Will S]

Just a question here.
During regeneration aren't pollutant's released from the exhaust system increased???
If so, and if most tractors do it every 50-200 hours, wouldn't that mean that this tractor is in fact exceeding overall allowable pollution output per it's hours of overall use?

ps. google search of basic terms of DPF regeneration and pollution yielded this:

Does DPF regeneration cause pollution?


A side effect of DPF regeneration is the increased emission of gaseous pollutants and particulate matter

It is my understanding that when regen occurs, the very high temperature in the DPF burns off the soot, no Nox, so no, there are no harmful emissions released. If the DPF was just collecting exhaust soot, but then releasing it during regen, that never would have met EPA regs.

Maybe someone will chime in here who actually is an expert of regen systems.

 

[rScotty]

Just a question here.
During regeneration aren't pollutant's released from the exhaust system increased???
If so, and if most tractors do it every 50-200 hours, wouldn't that mean that this tractor is in fact exceeding overall allowable pollution output per it's hours of overall use?

ps. google search of basic terms of DPF regeneration and pollution yielded this:

Does DPF regeneration cause pollution?


A side effect of DPF regeneration is the increased emission of gaseous pollutants and particulate matter

I've wondered the same thing.... Is DPF a legal & political solution rather than a real solution? Does it really work?

How in the world does running an engine faster all day and then periodically burning off the carbon benefit anything? Doesn't DPF simply take big chunks of soot and make it into smaller types of carbon? If we add in a regeneration cycle that adds up to more carbon in the atmosphere at the end of the day.... not less.

rScotty

 

[sd455dan]

I've wondered the same thing.... Is DPF a legal & political solution rather than a real solution? Does it really work?

How in the world does running an engine faster all day and then periodically burning off the carbon benefit anything? Doesn't DPF simply take big chunks of soot and make it into smaller types of carbon? If we add in a regeneration cycle that adds up to more carbon in the atmosphere at the end of the day.... not less.

rScotty

Well if nothing else the tractor will likely burn through more diesel, and at diesel prices "these days" that would be enough to want the amount of time between regen maximized.
Was just looking at some posts about how much extra diesel is burned in a full size diesel truck per regen and the number quoted was up to a 1/2 gallon. With diesel around here over $5 that's an extra $2.50 per regen.

My nephews 2012 DPF'd Cummins powered Ram always had over a quart of diesel in the engine oil at change time as well,(also measured over full on the dipstick,) that can't be good for lubricity of the oil either. Tier 4 is very likely using/ burning more refined petroleum than tier 2 tractors.

ps. It does make a lot of sense that elevating burn temps with a catalyst involved will dramatically reduce pollution. It just seems like Tier 4 is a band aid until a more "efficient" system is figured out.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

LS SAYS A REGEN EVERY 2 HOURS IS NORMAL

Here's my regen history, the best I have record of it. I'm sure I missed a few early on before I recognized there was a real problem and started keeping track. I have been having excessive regens almost since the tractor was purchased.

Dealership has been great at getting the tractor in for service and trying a few things, but unfortunately the problem has not been resolved. They called me yesterday after hearing back from LS and informed me that LS’ stance is that regeneration every 2 hours is normal. If regeneration is occurring more frequently than 2 hours apart, there could be an issue.

I find that unacceptable. I use the tractor at home, it is not a business machine, but based on an 8 hour work day, what should be a normal regen cycle of around 50 hours, would give me 6+ days between regens, and LS is telling me that 4 times per day is normal!

First some qualifying information.

• Tractor is run consistently between 1800 and 2400 RPM
• Always used on road diesel filled from high turnover stations in 5 gallon cans, I fill 2 or 3 cans, 10-15 gallons at a time, so there has been a lot of fuel turnover, not the same, or old fuel being used. Tried with and without fuel additive (Power Kleen or Howes) no change. At one point LS blamed fuel quality, but refused to test the fuel in the tank to prove it.
• DPF switch left in regeneration mode, I have never inhibited regeneration.

Occasionally before a regen, the DPF regeneration indicator will blink on/off at 1 sec intervals indicating a >120% soot load, then soon after it will go through a normal regen cycle without me needing to initiate it via the DPF switch. I have not kept a detailed record of when the indicator flashes before a regen, but I have noticed it several times (and I’m sure I missed it blinking a few times too.) Normally it seems to go right into regen mode (solid light) indicating 100% soot load, not >120%, but not always.

I’ve also had a few regens complete and then within 5 minutes the tractor goes into limp mode which a restart clears. That has happened maybe 3 times or so. I don’t recall what was displayed on the instrument panel other than the red ! (Vehicle control error warning indicator.)

Another thing I have noticed more recently, this may be indicative or not; I have noticed a much more pronounced diesel odor in the exhaust than in the past. While nothing like my previous non tier IV motor which was sooty, the MT240 used to burn extremely clean with no noticeable exhaust odor, now there is a diesel exhaust smell, not horrible, but definitely noticeable. Maybe now because it has 300 hours that is to be expected. There is no visible soot or black smoke, just a diesel odor that was not there previously. I may also hear injector or valve chatter that is louder then before as well.

Additionally there were a couple regens run at the dealership during troubleshooting and maintenance which I don't have listed below.

Regen time on hour meter, all regens completed successfully after ~15 minutes:

4 (ran by dealer due to error code, day after I brought it home)
101
106
112
115 (Dealership replaced DPF Sensor, removed and cleaned DPF)
118
119
148
165
175
187
191
197
213
224
234
250
254 (Dealership replaced ECU and DPF sensor. Invoice notes “REGEN OCCURRING TO OFTEN WITH NO SOOT LOAD”)
259 (In Dealership for service, ran diagnostic, nothing significant noted)
262
269
276
300
307

I'm looking for advice on how to move forward. First I need to be able to get the dealer to move forward since LS who is paying for the warranty work says this is NORMAL OPERATION.

Next I see 2 different paths.

1. DPF System has a fault
2. DPF system working normally, tractor producing too much soot

Comments?

So you know: the field fix for tier 4 is to install a warmer thermostat. Pull your T-stat, figure out what temperature it starts to open and what temp it is fully open, then go to the largest auto parts store you can find with a caliper. Working with a competent ASE parts guy, you should be able to find a 185-195 degree T-stat as a drop-in replacement. Putting in a warmer thermostat gets the engine up to operating temperature quicker leading to reduced regen cycles and especially so anywhere every day isn't 60 degrees F and above it will not cause your engine to overheat. As a rule, mechanics have been changing to warmer thermostats in cars and trucks in my area of Minnesota since before I started as a tech 31 years ago.

 

[Will S]

I wonder about a lot of things with all this business. When I was searching the web for some documents that might reference " minimum interval for DPF regen" (I didn't find anything), I did run across this, which was posted in January 2021. About half way down the page, there is a flow chart series of questions to determine if Tier 4 applies to my (over 25hp) tractor engine.

I was more than a little surprised at what I saw, and I'm wondering can this be true?

Do you need to be Tier 4 compliant?

 

[cat fever]

I didn't read all the posts but my Kioti goes about 60-75 hours before a regen is needed.

 

[tractorred]

LS SAYS A REGEN EVERY 2 HOURS IS NORMAL

Here's my regen history, the best I have record of it. I'm sure I missed a few early on before I recognized there was a real problem and started keeping track. I have been having excessive regens almost since the tractor was purchased.

Dealership has been great at getting the tractor in for service and trying a few things, but unfortunately the problem has not been resolved. They called me yesterday after hearing back from LS and informed me that LS’ stance is that regeneration every 2 hours is normal. If regeneration is occurring more frequently than 2 hours apart, there could be an issue.

I find that unacceptable. I use the tractor at home, it is not a business machine, but based on an 8 hour work day, what should be a normal regen cycle of around 50 hours, would give me 6+ days between regens, and LS is telling me that 4 times per day is normal!

First some qualifying information.

• Tractor is run consistently between 1800 and 2400 RPM
• Always used on road diesel filled from high turnover stations in 5 gallon cans, I fill 2 or 3 cans, 10-15 gallons at a time, so there has been a lot of fuel turnover, not the same, or old fuel being used. Tried with and without fuel additive (Power Kleen or Howes) no change. At one point LS blamed fuel quality, but refused to test the fuel in the tank to prove it.
• DPF switch left in regeneration mode, I have never inhibited regeneration.

Occasionally before a regen, the DPF regeneration indicator will blink on/off at 1 sec intervals indicating a >120% soot load, then soon after it will go through a normal regen cycle without me needing to initiate it via the DPF switch. I have not kept a detailed record of when the indicator flashes before a regen, but I have noticed it several times (and I’m sure I missed it blinking a few times too.) Normally it seems to go right into regen mode (solid light) indicating 100% soot load, not >120%, but not always.

I’ve also had a few regens complete and then within 5 minutes the tractor goes into limp mode which a restart clears. That has happened maybe 3 times or so. I don’t recall what was displayed on the instrument panel other than the red ! (Vehicle control error warning indicator.)

Another thing I have noticed more recently, this may be indicative or not; I have noticed a much more pronounced diesel odor in the exhaust than in the past. While nothing like my previous non tier IV motor which was sooty, the MT240 used to burn extremely clean with no noticeable exhaust odor, now there is a diesel exhaust smell, not horrible, but definitely noticeable. Maybe now because it has 300 hours that is to be expected. There is no visible soot or black smoke, just a diesel odor that was not there previously. I may also hear injector or valve chatter that is louder then before as well.

Additionally there were a couple regens run at the dealership during troubleshooting and maintenance which I don't have listed below.

Regen time on hour meter, all regens completed successfully after ~15 minutes:

4 (ran by dealer due to error code, day after I brought it home)
101
106
112
115 (Dealership replaced DPF Sensor, removed and cleaned DPF)
118
119
148
165
175
187
191
197
213
224
234
250
254 (Dealership replaced ECU and DPF sensor. Invoice notes “REGEN OCCURRING TO OFTEN WITH NO SOOT LOAD”)
259 (In Dealership for service, ran diagnostic, nothing significant noted)
262
269
276
300
307

I'm looking for advice on how to move forward. First I need to be able to get the dealer to move forward since LS who is paying for the warranty work says this is NORMAL OPERATION.

Next I see 2 different paths.

1. DPF System has a fault
2. DPF system working normally, tractor producing too much soot

Comments?

 

[tractorred]

LCoastie, As a retired service rep. for a large tractor manf. that also has the Regen tractors, every two hours of regen is not normal at all. Sounds to me that LS either does not know what the issue might be or possible is buying time to figure it out. From what you have indicated of the rpm and no soot and regens within 5 mins. these issues should put the light on for someone at LS. I would call LS directly and start at their national service manager and then higher if need be. Need to be forceful but [don't go out of bounds.]

 

[ovrszd]

We all need to continually remind ourselves, his tractor does not regen every 2 hours. He never said it did and has repeatedly said it does not. He provided very detailed information as to it's regen rate since he's had it.

I think his situation is simply what it is. Nothing is going to change that except possibly his usage.

 

[Midniteoyl]

We all need to continually remind ourselves, his tractor does not regen every 2 hours. He never said it did and has repeatedly said it does not. He provided very detailed information as to it's regen rate since he's had it.

I think his situation is simply what it is. Nothing is going to change that except possibly his usage.

It ran *95hrs* before its first normal regen, then started regening every 8.9hrs on avg after that, and that just ain't right.

LS telling you, after looking at it *3 times* for the same issue, throwing parts at it, then telling you, 'Oh, every 2hrs is normal so your OK', when that didn't fix it... is complete BS.

 

[the old grind]

I won't gamble on my dealer's 'back room guy' since the former one (awesome fellow) has since earned his position (seniority, experience, knowledge) and is now the 'parts counter guy' since Ron retired. Can only guess who replaced him. lol

I'm a DIY guy who hopes to die with a wrench in hand, maybe not typical, but if you 'have the book' and a little knack can't anyone DIY with the best of 'em? (Tractor or a desk, dogs! Pick one. LOL)

That said, and apologies for deep pockets, but symptoms are not unlike a leaky injector ... bad fuel, bad filter not withstanding. For $150-$200 I'd have any tractor's injectors rebuilt, pop-tested, as if a 'test-load' for shot-gunning a problem so far from reasonable expectations.

 

[mred2]

On my LS4150, the regens have not been a problem. The first one at about 35 hours, the next at about 50. I can't tell you more as I don't really notice them. I do know it happens more often as to how I drive the tractor. Start, put out hay, shut it down, regens more often. Pulling a mower, disc, a lot less. One thing, I am old school, I never use the foot throttle. I noticed a long time ago on older tractors, that when you rev the engine up, black comes out of the exhaust. I set the rpm and leave it.
If it is not how the tractor is run, most likely not getting hot enough or fuel problem.