Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

[Gale Hawkins]

I'm starting to wonder based on reports and specs etc if a portion of these Hertz cars will not be coming from China. CA factory is the only other Model 3 factory that Tesla has.

 

[Blue Mule]

I still don't understand the concept. Why is electric the desire? It's not cheaper to drive an EV pickup truck. The cost per mile is identical to an ICE pickup truck due to utility rates. It doesn't save the planet because battery production is very "dirty" and waste management agencies are still trying to figure out what they're going to do with all the battery packs that are beyond life cycle. So you have environmental issues on the front end and back end both.

How many years will it be until you can charge an electric pickup truck in 5 minutes and then drive 500-1000 miles like you can with current pickup trucks?

I had a Jeep employee tell me last week that they had a case where a woman's hybrid minivan had a failed battery system. They believed that her husband may have burned it up by improperly charging it with a home-made 240v outlet. The repair was over $20,000 and Chrysler refused to cover it under warranty. The owners had no choice but to file an insurance claim. The insurance adjuster totaled the vehicle, all over a battery pack.

Why do people think this is the next great thing? ICEs have been around 100+ years for a very good reason, despite all the other change in the world, and that's because there really isn't a better way.

 

[RoyJackson]

I still don't understand the concept. Why is electric the desire? It's not cheaper to drive an EV pickup truck. The cost per mile is identical to an ICE pickup truck due to utility rates. It doesn't save the planet because battery production is very "dirty" and waste management agencies are still trying to figure out what they're going to do with all the battery packs that are beyond life cycle. So you have environmental issues on the front end and back end both.

Mostly due to public relations, propaganda and a lot of folks are ignorant of the destruction and pollution resulting from the manufacture and disposal of batteries.
They see the "Pie in the Sky", but not the pile of dog dung they're about to step in...

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Doing a small solar system is getting more and more attractive price wise and technically speaking as well. Building an EV charging system with 10-20 life span for $5-$10K would be cool to cut out gas and grid availability concerns. With current grid AC costing 3-4 cents per EV mile traveled delaying for better and cheaper solar systems plus being lazy fuels procrastination.

$20K dedicated solar charging for a Tesla would be a very nice especially when you spread it out over 10 or 20 years of use.

 

[RoyJackson]

This was the energy density chart I was looking at the other day.

Horizontal is mass.
Vertical is volume.

By weight or by volume, batteries can only store about 2-3% of the energy that aviation fuel can. Hydrogen can store way more energy than aviation fuel, but it takes up way more volume.

When operating large container ships, both weight and volume have to be considered.

Compressed hydrogen will be key, but more efficient engines and materials have to be developed. There's a lot of R&D going on right now, for both commercial and military usage in aerospace.
But it's not just reduced greenhouse gases. The more efficient engines and structures result in a lighter aircraft....possibly allowing for increased passenger or cargo load.
Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe...highly unlikely we'd ever run out.
For short haul flights, I think electric engines will be that answer. The designs I've seen were propeller driven (by turbine engines) rather then jet
For shipboard use, I wouldn't be too surprised to see a resurgence in nuclear power. There's a lot of research going on for nukes and fusion. It wasn't too long ago, it was thought fusion power was impossible...might still be, but it does appear to be more feasible.

For transportation...definitely more rail. More EVs in higher populated areas (i.e. cities and suburbs). Rural areas will probably still be using some type of fuel...maybe diesel, maybe hydrogen. But something that would have more range and less refill time then batteries.

Time to put the Crystal Ball away for a while...

 

[SylvainG]

I still don't understand the concept. Why is electric the desire? It's not cheaper to drive an EV pickup truck. The cost per mile is identical to an ICE pickup truck due to utility rates. It doesn't save the planet because battery production is very "dirty" and waste management agencies are still trying to figure out what they're going to do with all the battery packs that are beyond life cycle. So you have environmental issues on the front end and back end both.

How many years will it be until you can charge an electric pickup truck in 5 minutes and then drive 500-1000 miles like you can with current pickup trucks?

I had a Jeep employee tell me last week that they had a case where a woman's hybrid minivan had a failed battery system. They believed that her husband may have burned it up by improperly charging it with a home-made 240v outlet. The repair was over $20,000 and Chrysler refused to cover it under warranty. The owners had no choice but to file an insurance claim. The insurance adjuster totaled the vehicle, all over a battery pack.

Why do people think this is the next great thing? ICEs have been around 100+ years for a very good reason, despite all the other change in the world, and that's because there really isn't a better way.

Where are you for kWh/mile being the same as ounce/mile? Here, it' s about 1/15th. My 2013 Hyundai Tucson used 10L per 100 KM so 0.1L per KM. At $1.47 per L, that's $0.147 per KM. My Telsa Model 3 SR+ with its 50 kWh battery drains 30% per 100 KM so 15 kWh per 100 KM, or 150Wh per KM. At $0.0615 per kWh, that's $0.0092 per KM. That's 16 times less than my Tucson.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I still don't understand the concept. Why is electric the desire? It's not cheaper to drive an EV pickup truck. The cost per mile is identical to an ICE pickup truck due to utility rates. It doesn't save the planet because battery production is very "dirty" and waste management agencies are still trying to figure out what they're going to do with all the battery packs that are beyond life cycle. So you have environmental issues on the front end and back end both.

How many years will it be until you can charge an electric pickup truck in 5 minutes and then drive 500-1000 miles like you can with current pickup trucks?

I had a Jeep employee tell me last week that they had a case where a woman's hybrid minivan had a failed battery system. They believed that her husband may have burned it up by improperly charging it with a home-made 240v outlet. The repair was over $20,000 and Chrysler refused to cover it under warranty. The owners had no choice but to file an insurance claim. The insurance adjuster totaled the vehicle, all over a battery pack.

Why do people think this is the next great thing? ICEs have been around 100+ years for a very good reason, despite all the other change in the world, and that's because there really isn't a better way.

EV ownership costs less is what's driving companies like Hertz to move towards EV fleets so EV adoption is just a dollar and sense decision. Hertz will always know the location of their vehicles the driving habits in use plus photos of accidents and passengers.

In the case of an 80 year old owner with with a paid for 2020 Toyota with 5K miles driving 200 miles monthly it's not a money factor but more of a life or death risk factor of self and others. Then there's risk factor the kids taking one's keys unless it it has Full Self Driving feature.

 

[MossRoad]

This was the energy density chart I was looking at the other day.

Horizontal is mass.
Vertical is volume.

By weight or by volume, batteries can only store about 2-3% of the energy that aviation fuel can. Hydrogen can store way more energy than aviation fuel, but it takes up way more volume.

When operating large container ships, both weight and volume have to be considered.

Forgot the chart!

 

[Doughknob]

Do you think there any short sellers covering still going or is the world just starting to realize the EV cost savings and yet Tesla is the only EV maker selling their vehicles at a profit?

There are always shorts covering during a run-up, and it could have contributed some to recent events. But I think the Hertz deal was a surprise. And I also think there is something else going on - but that is just a hunch of mine.

 

[SylvainG]

Forgot the cart!

View attachment 718452

Have to watch it against a white background because the chart has a transparent background lol

 

[Doughknob]

I still don't understand the concept. Why is electric the desire? It's not cheaper to drive an EV pickup truck. The cost per mile is identical to an ICE pickup truck due to utility rates. It doesn't save the planet because battery production is very "dirty" and waste management agencies are still trying to figure out what they're going to do with all the battery packs that are beyond life cycle.BIG names in the private industry world are working on this as we speak. Recycling EV automobile battery packs is a HUGE potential money-making business. Recycling will happen; I just hope I can choose the start-ups that get out front on it, to invest in! So you have environmental issues on the front end and back end both see previous....

How many years will it be until you can charge an electric pickup truck in 5 minutes and then drive 500-1000 miles like you can with current pickup trucks?
How many years will it be until oil runs out or the price is astronomical?

I had a Jeep employee tell me last week that they had a case where a woman's hybrid minivan had a failed battery system. They believed that her husband may have burned it up by improperly charging it with a home-made 240v outlet. The repair was over $20,000 and Chrysler refused to cover it under warranty. The owners had no choice but to file an insurance claim. The insurance adjuster totaled the vehicle, all over a battery pack.All "systems" have problems and isolated incidents of disasters. That is not unique to batteries. And the batteries are getting better as we go. You are seeing the EV industry in its infancy - people in the 1890s were saying the same thing about IC vehicles vs the horse!!!!!

Why do people think this is the next great thing? ICEs have been around 100+ years for a very good reason, despite all the other change in the world, and that's because there really isn't a better way. What is "Better"?? I want a Tesla because it is FAST. I want a Tesla because I don't have to go to gas stations. I want a Tesla because I can "summon" it from my barn to my house door and have it warm up the cockpit. I want a Tesla because I don't have to change oil. I want a Tesla because I can set it to raise itself up at pre-set locations every time I go over tracks or up my rough drive. To me all these things ARE better.

 

[SylvainG]

This was the energy density chart I was looking at the other day.

Horizontal is mass.
Vertical is volume.

By weight or by volume, batteries can only store about 2-3% of the energy that aviation fuel can. Hydrogen can store way more energy than aviation fuel, but it takes up way more volume.

When operating large container ships, both weight and volume have to be considered.

So Lithium Borohydride is the most efficient, packing the most megajoule per weight and volume.

 

[Agvg]

If the goal is to reduce pollution then the easiest is to reduce the horrible resource waste that all those throw away products, we buy the same products over and over a gain and think its OK. France have started to by law demand longer lifetime and force sellers to offer parts to common products.

 

[Agvg]

You could demand 20 years /1000 000km bumper to bumper warranty on cars and trucks including rust damage.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

There are always shorts covering during a run-up, and it could have contributed some to recent events. But I think the Hertz deal was a surprise. And I also think there is something else going on - but that is just a hunch of mine.

I hope the Tesla smartphone is more than just a rumor.

 

[PuffyC]

I still don't understand the concept. Why is electric the desire? It's not cheaper to drive an EV pickup truck.

No one really argues that EVs aren't cheaper when it comes to fueling and maintenance costs. It's not even close. I won't go into details since we've been there earlier in the thread but the truth is out there.

It doesn't save the planet because battery production is very "dirty" and waste management agencies are still trying to figure out what they're going to do with all the battery packs that are beyond life cycle. So you have environmental issues on the front end and back end both.

Battery production isn't 100% clean but there's very little legitimate debate whether the net is better. The argument seems to be "the solution isn't perfect so let's not do it" but no solution is perfect so if that's what we're waiting on we'll never get anywhere.

How many years will it be until you can charge an electric pickup truck in 5 minutes and then drive 500-1000 miles like you can with current pickup trucks?

That's a fringe case where today ICE is definitely better, and if that's your case you'd be nuts to buy an electric pickup. However for the way the majority of pickups are used by the majority of consumers, this is a nonissue. But we'll get there.

I had a Jeep employee tell me last week that they had a case where a woman's hybrid minivan had a failed battery system. They believed that her husband may have burned it up by improperly charging it with a home-made 240v outlet. The repair was over $20,000 and Chrysler refused to cover it under warranty. The owners had no choice but to file an insurance claim. The insurance adjuster totaled the vehicle, all over a battery pack.

I'm not surprised FCA would deny paying for damage caused by someone's homemade science project. $20,000 is insanely high for pack replacement too. The pack is the single most expensive component in an EV - these things are state of the art - so you blow one up and it's gonna cost you.

Why do people think this is the next great thing? ICEs have been around 100+ years for a very good reason, despite all the other change in the world, and that's because there really isn't a better way.

Much like with the very first gas powered tractors, people will argue that the old ways are better. Why do I have to change when I have a perfectly good ox to pull my plow? Electrics are desired because we already know they're better. One day our grandkids will look back at petrol motors the same way we look back at that poor unemployed ox. The real question isn't what or why, it's when, and the answer is soon.

 

[Jstpssng]

70K$ for a Rivian... 38K for a gasoline 4x4 Crew Cab GMC pickup. Unless you have that kind of money laying around you also are going to be paying a lot of interest. Even at 5$/gallon, you can buy a lot of gas for thirty two thousand dollars. (6400 gallons or 128K miles)

 

[lman]

70K$ for a Rivian... 38K for a gasoline 4x4 Crew Cab GMC pickup. Unless you have that kind of money laying around you also are going to be paying a lot of interest. Even at 5$/gallon, you can buy a lot of gas for thirty two thousand dollars. (6400 gallons or 128K miles)

The good part is it will haul half a sheet of plywood.

 

[Jstpssng]

Much like with the very first gas powered tractors, people will argue that the old ways are better. Why do I have to change when I have a perfectly good ox to pull my plow? Electrics are desired because we already know they're better. One day our grandkids will look back at petrol motors the same way we look back at that poor unemployed ox. The real question isn't what or why, it's when, and the answer is soon.

I'm not arguing that at all; I just don't believe in buying into the latest fad. Once the technology is more defined, I can get some of my questions answered, and somebody starts making an affordable, dependable EV I will probably buy one. There are just too many variables including safety. I don't live near a city, and keep the tanks of my pickups over 1/2 full most of the time, including when traveling. On more than one occasion I've sat in snow and ice storms for an hour or more while an accident scene was cleared. What will it do to battery range when you keep running the heater, wipers, and lights? How much is that range reduced when you are pushing through 6 inches of snow?
It's not uncommon for me to drive 200 miles to my mother's house in the AM, visit for a few hours and do what I can to help out; then come home. Will a battery recharge in that time?

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Investors With $39.2 Trillion In Assets Pledge To Divest From Fossil Fuels | OilPrice.com

Not sure what the impact of this divesting from fossil fuel development will mean to the process. I guess it depends on where demand drops faster than the investments or the other way around. It could lead to higher fuel cost in the short run I expect if things get out of sync.