Bigger HST machines.

[cdaigle430]

HST is smooth and efficient, it also allows for easier operations because most equipment is not just drive only. There are several things going on.

Those saying HST is problematic or cause power loss are living back in the 60s.

Take for example the Komatsu D71-24...this is an HST off a 271 hp motor. Dozers are notorious for extreme hard work at slow crawl speeds.

To many negative uneducated opinions here on the HST subject.

In my opinion...HST is not offered on alot of bigger machines because of the initial cost.

 

[Barker806]

I have a Yanmar TY359 with a CVT after having a Kubota Grand L5740 . I can tell you that I will never own another bigger hydro for what it is worth... You have SO much more power to the wheels!

 

[arrow]

I have a Yanmar TY359 with a CVT after having a Kubota Grand L5740 . I can tell you that I will never own another bigger hydro for what it is worth... You have SO much more power to the wheels!

That's not this discussion.
The op doesn't need "power to the ground". He needs convenience and you are not going to beat an hst for that or for his particular needs.

 

[MHarryE]

I think every manufacturer has tractors with CVT's similar to the Fendt Vario. Even AGCO used different versions on their lines such as Massey-Ferguson although MF may now use the Vario design. At least one of my dealers, selling AGCO and Kubota, tells me that. I have a Kubota M7 KVT which uses a Z-F transmission as do some of the other major manufacturers. Operationally, the difference in my L6060 and my M7-171 is the shuttle lever on the M7 for direction control. Otherwise it is seamless from a stop to full speed. In the case of the M7, it will creep once the shuttle is moved forward unless applying the brakes. List price was $4,000 more for my KVT over the 24 speed power shift but having been used to power shift JD's and New Hollands, I thought it was well worth the extra and am not in the least disappointed. Now my combine has 270 HP going to its hydro but except when roading, most of that 270 goes to threshing. Lots of construction equipment use hydros larger than CUT's - hydraulic excavators, pavers, compactors for example. But they need functions like precise ground speed control. In addition, its easier to transfer power to tracks on a excavator through a swivel coupling for hydraulics than mechanical methods (although it will probably all be replaced by electrical methods).

For power loss in the hydro, an International Hydro 186 has 105 engine hp, 80 drawbar hp. The mechanical equivalent 986 has 105 engine hp, 90 drawbar hp. In the Nebraska test, the Hydro 186 used 8.1 gph while delivering 80 drawbar hp and the 986 used 7.1 gph while delivering 90 drawbar hp. A neighbor of mine still uses a Hydro 186 for his loader work and loves it - no significant issues in a 40 year old workhorse.

 

[DieselBound]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that we're going to see a lot more of these kinds of machines pushing into the market.

Agriculture | Merlo

They need to get PTOs on their smaller units. However, I'd think that hydraulic powered implements could be more of an end solution: I know that being able to reverse augers (drilling holes/post holes and such) is a good thing.

 

[Bavarian]

I didn't read all the comments, maybe someone mentioned it.
There are bigger machines on the market. But you need to open your wallet.

Fendt is starting it's product line with the 207 Vario. It's 70 hp. But I think it's not sold in the NA market. The Vario line goes up to 500 hp with the 1050.
I think Massey is selling the same transmission under the name Dyna VT.
AGCO seems to fill your needs.

 

[LD1]

I didn't read all the comments, maybe someone mentioned it.
There are bigger machines on the market. But you need to open your wallet.

Fendt is starting it's product line with the 207 Vario. It's 70 hp. But I think it's not sold in the NA market. The Vario line goes up to 500 hp with the 1050.
I think Massey is selling the same transmission under the name Dyna VT.
AGCO seems to fill your needs.

Dont want, nor do I need a 80hp 9000 pound machine.

Yes, you can get CVT's, IVT's, KVT's whatever. And yes their operation is very similar to HST. still have a forward and reverse selector but pedal intuition is gonna be about the same.

The problem is those all come on tractors WAY bigger than I want.

One size up from a MX or 4000-series deere is what I am after. Not 3 sizes up.

A simple 5000# tractor with 20 or 24" fronts, not the 16" wheels.

Like I said....M6060 or M7060 kubota or a 5065/5075 deere would be perfect. But a tractor that size is not offered in any type of variable transmission or HST. Only banging gears and shuttle. But I dont sit and browse the dozens of tractor MFG's so for all I knew someone already had an offering or something in the pipeline. But that dont seem to be the case thus far

 

[Hermio]

I do a lot of work in the woods. I have a Mahindra 5035HST, 4wd. It is nominally 50 Hp, and weighs about 11000 lb when I have it set up for bushhogging, about 10,000 when I have it set up for logging. I would not have a gear drive in the woods. Too much danger of flipping on an unseen stump or other obstacle, or of getting impaled by a branch that pops up. I did add underbelly armor, but I do not have a tree sweep, FOPS or a cage. I agree that for field bushhogging a 2WD gear drive would be more fuel efficient, unless the grass density is highly variasble, in which case variable speed can actually improve productivity: speed up where the mowing is easy, slow down for the tough spots.

 

[Red Eye]

HST for loader/grapple work, but for field work go Gears.

 

[streamin]

I do a lot of work in the woods. I have a Mahindra 5035HST, 4wd. It is nominally 50 Hp, and weighs about 11000 lb when I have it set up for bushhogging, about 10,000 when I have it set up for logging. I would not have a gear drive in the woods. Too much danger of flipping on an unseen stump or other obstacle, or of getting impaled by a branch that pops up. I did add underbelly armor, but I do not have a tree sweep, FOPS or a cage. I agree that for field bushhogging a 2WD gear drive would be more fuel efficient, unless the grass density is highly variasble, in which case variable speed can actually improve productivity: speed up where the mowing is easy, slow down for the tough spots.

I have the same tractor, I also have owned a Kubota 32 and upgraded to a 50 hp Kubota all HST. I agree though for loader work and in the woods nothing beats hst. Sadly I never owned gear tractor, mainly because of what people say about them for log and loader work, so can't make a comparison.

 

[ArlyA]

HST work best for some some jobs while a manual tranny works best for others. What's the argument?

 

[Tbone07]

I'm in the same boat as you. Own/operate a 150 acre tree farm family property 50% wooded with CRP fields to mow, various hazards and obstacles to mow/operate around, deer plots to roto-till, trees to work around. Biggest and most powerful modern HST tractor I can find is a Deere 4066. But a Deere 5075 with HST would be absolutely perfect.

Got multiple family members who run the tractors with varying levels of expertise. So the HST just works well and is easiest to use. It's safer for some of the steep downhill parts of our property where you just let off the pedal and creep down.

Between our Ford 1920 and TC40, I'll choose the TC40 to mow with every single time. Being able to just let off the pedal to blend up a thicker patch of tall grass or debris, then reverse and back over again is just so much easier with the HST. Same with roto-tilling....on the 1920 I've got to constantly mess with the 3-pt height if it starts to bog down, on the TC40 I just let off the pedal and go a bit slower until it pulls through.

I for one would absolutely be interested in a 5075 or equivalent with an HST.

 

[Bavarian]

Dont want, nor do I need a 80hp 9000 pound machine.

Yes, you can get CVT's, IVT's, KVT's whatever. And yes their operation is very similar to HST. still have a forward and reverse selector but pedal intuition is gonna be about the same.

The problem is those all come on tractors WAY bigger than I want.

One size up from a MX or 4000-series deere is what I am after. Not 3 sizes up.

A simple 5000# tractor with 20 or 24" fronts, not the 16" wheels.

Like I said....M6060 or M7060 kubota or a 5065/5075 deere would be perfect. But a tractor that size is not offered in any type of variable transmission or HST. Only banging gears and shuttle. But I dont sit and browse the dozens of tractor MFG's so for all I knew someone already had an offering or something in the pipeline. But that dont seem to be the case thus far

Actually, the 2xx series is in the 8000 lbs range. It's weight sure is more pointed to ground engaging work vs surface maintenance that you do.
But HSTs are definitely available above the 60 hp threshold.

 

[geoffleach]

Wondering what everyone's thoughts are and if there would be demand for bigger HST machines? ...

I use a Antonio Carraro HST 9800 (85 hp) with a Cleanfix radiator cleaner. Mowing hilly property with a 5' flail mower. Not cheap, but does the work.

 

[MHarryE]

I assume that the companies do a lot of market analysis before deciding. My last 2 companies prior to retiring, CNH and Caterpillar, surveyed to death but often missed the customer. They surveyed big operators and large dealers for the most part. I was in engineering, then switched to product support, and got to talk to the people in the trenches so to speak. My input was accepted for improving durability and maintenance, but things like that talked about here --- very little. That would make it too expensive to sell in its power range would be the likely marketing response - but marketing can sell anything if it's cheap.

But one of the problems faced is suppliers as the companies buy their hydros from somebody else. I selected Bosch-Rexroth as one of the most important suppliers worldwide. A very popular size hydro pump is 56cc max displacement. The next size is 71cc. The 56cc may be good to 60 hp, but the next step to the 71 cc might double the price of the transmission. So that is why we see tractors stopping at about 60 hp. One of my products at Cat doubled - 2 56cc pumps instead of a larger pump in part for reduced height and width but also because we could mount 2 smaller ones at less cost than one large one. So one drove the front, one drove the rear. But we are talking about a machine that cost over $200k. That's all a bunch of engineering jargon but what I am getting at is that due to hydro pump and motor sizing, the jump from 60 to 75 hp might increase the cost of the tractor 25% and wouldn't be marketable.

I work in the same fields with my BIL and nephew driving old fully gear driven IH tractors. We can measure in loads produced every day and I always beat them because of no shifting. Windrow gets heavy, I back off with my KVT control lever. They need to stop and shift down, then stop and shift up. Beyond making hay, the same thing follows in tillage. They don't stop to shift - they go at the slower speed all the time while l set the power and my KVT adjusts to maintain that % of max power all the time, slows for tough going, speeds up in easy going. Much more efficient. Fuel efficiency - I am always running where my engine is most fuel efficient in gm/kW-hr. They seldom hit their engine's sweet spot. Full power shifts get darn close to a CVT, especially when you get over 20 speeds. However my cousin's JD's really have 4 power shift speeds on a so called 20 speed power shift transmission. Power sift is between those 4 speeds. Next is stop and shift range to get a different 4 speed power shift. His NH is better, 6 in each of 4 ranges but there still is the range shift that isn't power.

To the OP - find a nice used IH Hydro-100 or Hydro-186. Rare, but tough and get the job done.

 

[ptsg]

If you want high HP and relatively low weight on a very compact package, just check Antonio Carraro. It's about the closest you're gonna get for your needs. Might be a tad small for the average American but it's not too bad. These are specialized tractors that don't come cheap.

Antonio Carraro SR7600 Infinity:

- 75HP Kohler engine
- 5000 lbs bare weight
- HST with 3 speeds, like the Kubota Grand L High/Low lever but with 3 speeds instead of two. Plus two mechanical ranges on the transmission.
- Cab with AC and all that good stuff
- Reversible engine fan to clean the radiator - a must for your application.
- This one is articulated and it's a narrow version.
- 540/540E PTO

Narrow Vineyard Tractor SR 7600 Infinity | Antonio Cararro

Hydrostatic articulated tractor with narrow track width and reversible drive (75 hp Kohler engine), ideal for work in tight spaces like narrow vineyards, where a minimum turning radius is required.

www.antoniocarraro.it

Antonio Carraro TR7600 Infinity:

- 75HP Kohler engine
- 5300 lbs bare weight
- HST with 3 speeds, like the Kubota Grand L High/Low lever but with 3 speeds instead of two. Plus two mechanical ranges on the transmission.
- Cab with AC and all that good stuff
- Reversible engine fan to clean the radiator - a must for your application.
- This one has the regular front axle steering instead of being articulated and standard width.
- Reversible operators platform
- 540/540E PTO

Hydrostatic Tractor TR 7600 Infinity | Antonio Carraro

The TR 7600 Infinity (75 hp Kohler engine) is a steering hydrostatic tractor with reversible driving position for specialized agriculture and maintenance of public green spaces; ideal also for working on hillsides.

www.antoniocarraro.it

Antonio Carraro Tony 10900 TR

- 98HP Kubota engine
- 5700 lbs bare weight
- HST with 4 sift on the go ranges
- Cab with AC and all that good stuff
- Reversible engine fan to clean the radiator - a must for your application.
- This one has the regular front axle steering instead of being articulated and standard width.
- Reversible operators platform
- 540/540E PTO

Compact Tractor Tony 8900 TR | Antonio Carraro

Tony 8900 TR is a dynamic and versatile compact tractor, designed for precision farming applications, such as crop spraying and all operations that require a constant working speed to achieve perfectly consistent results.

www.antoniocarraro.it

 

[4570Man]

What about just boosting the HP on the MX a little bit and not trading it for something bigger?

 

[LD1]

unless the grass density is highly variasble, in which case variable speed can actually improve productivity: speed up where the mowing is easy, slow down for the tough spots.

Yes, highly variable grass/brush density as well as highly variable levels of "roughness".

But that is precisely what I do. Speed up (up to ~7.5mph) when its smooth or light. Slow down to whatever is comfortable or keeping the power up when rough or thick.

HST for loader/grapple work, but for field work go Gears.

Not really a debate between HST vs gear

I'm in the same boat as you. Own/operate a 150 acre tree farm family property 50% wooded with CRP fields to mow, various hazards and obstacles to mow/operate around, deer plots to roto-till, trees to work around. Biggest and most powerful modern HST tractor I can find is a Deere 4066. But a Deere 5075 with HST would be absolutely perfect.

Got multiple family members who run the tractors with varying levels of expertise. So the HST just works well and is easiest to use. It's safer for some of the steep downhill parts of our property where you just let off the pedal and creep down.

Between our Ford 1920 and TC40, I'll choose the TC40 to mow with every single time. Being able to just let off the pedal to blend up a thicker patch of tall grass or debris, then reverse and back over again is just so much easier with the HST. Same with roto-tilling....on the 1920 I've got to constantly mess with the 3-pt height if it starts to bog down, on the TC40 I just let off the pedal and go a bit slower until it pulls through.

I for one would absolutely be interested in a 5075 or equivalent with an HST.

Exactly what I been saying. Something 5065/5075 HST and Id be all over it. And great point on other operators. I often have my 10 year old son or my wife who is NOT friendly on a gear/clutch drive the machine. Just yesterday mulching some yard trees. I am able to put my son on the tractor while I am in front with a shovel bouncing from tree to tree. Saves me from constantly on/off the machine working solo.

Actually, the 2xx series is in the 8000 lbs range. It's weight sure is more pointed to ground engaging work vs surface maintenance that you do.
But HSTs are definitely available above the 60 hp threshold.

Maybe? I looked them up this morning but now I aint seeing anything smaller than 300 series on their site. But what I saw this morning listed a 207 @ ~4150KG.... which is a tad over 9k

What about just boosting the HP on the MX a little bit and not trading it for something bigger?

HP isnt really the concern. Sure a little more would certainly be put to use. But the idea of the bigger frame is mainly for the smoother ride offered by having 20's or 24's up front. Top that off with a little more ground clearance and sitting higher (better visibility). Thats what I am after. Not necessarily more power.

As power robbing as everyone claims HST's are....I have to slow down WAY more frequently because of rough ride or poor cut quality in stemmy brush. Slowing down for lack of power seldom happens.

 

[Shenandoah MF1760]

My Massey is 59 HP. I thought the HST was the best option for working in the woods, and it still may be in terms of ease of operation for those around me not familiar with manual transmissions.

Would I have bought something bigger if available? Yes.

I'm beginning to think I need something with a backhoe because every time I turn around I find a use for one. I'll probably look for something used with a few more ponies than the Massey, and I won't care what the transmission is.

 

[Bavarian]

I assume that the companies do a lot of market analysis before deciding. My last 2 companies prior to retiring, CNH and Caterpillar, surveyed to death but often missed the customer. They surveyed big operators and large dealers for the most part. I was in engineering, then switched to product support, and got to talk to the people in the trenches so to speak. My input was accepted for improving durability and maintenance, but things like that talked about here --- very little. That would make it too expensive to sell in its power range would be the likely marketing response - but marketing can sell anything if it's cheap.

But one of the problems faced is suppliers as the companies buy their hydros from somebody else. I selected Bosch-Rexroth as one of the most important suppliers worldwide. A very popular size hydro pump is 56cc max displacement. The next size is 71cc. The 56cc may be good to 60 hp, but the next step to the 71 cc might double the price of the transmission. So that is why we see tractors stopping at about 60 hp. One of my products at Cat doubled - 2 56cc pumps instead of a larger pump in part for reduced height and width but also because we could mount 2 smaller ones at less cost than one large one. So one drove the front, one drove the rear. But we are talking about a machine that cost over $200k. That's all a bunch of engineering jargon but what I am getting at is that due to hydro pump and motor sizing, the jump from 60 to 75 hp might increase the cost of the tractor 25% and wouldn't be marketable.

I work in the same fields with my BIL and nephew driving old fully gear driven IH tractors. We can measure in loads produced every day and I always beat them because of no shifting. Windrow gets heavy, I back off with my KVT control lever. They need to stop and shift down, then stop and shift up. Beyond making hay, the same thing follows in tillage. They don't stop to shift - they go at the slower speed all the time while l set the power and my KVT adjusts to maintain that % of max power all the time, slows for tough going, speeds up in easy going. Much more efficient. Fuel efficiency - I am always running where my engine is most fuel efficient in gm/kW-hr. They seldom hit their engine's sweet spot. Full power shifts get darn close to a CVT, especially when you get over 20 speeds. However my cousin's JD's really have 4 power shift speeds on a so called 20 speed power shift transmission. Power sift is between those 4 speeds. Next is stop and shift range to get a different 4 speed power shift. His NH is better, 6 in each of 4 ranges but there still is the range shift that isn't power.

To the OP - find a nice used IH Hydro-100 or Hydro-186. Rare, but tough and get the job done.

Your explanation about the size of pumps and and the resulting changes in design makes a few things clearer for me now.
I was watching a demo video of the Fendt 207 that I mentioned before. At the end of the video they talked about the price. It's been north of €100.000.