Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

[Slowpoke Slim]

I'm sure this won't matter to the tree hugger movement:

Read this one today. Not all peaches and cream, this here "utopia" you guys are frothing over...

Are children ‘dying like dogs’ in effort to build better batteries?

 

[Larry Caldwell]

I'm sure this won't matter to the tree hugger movement:

Read this one today. Not all peaches and cream, this here "utopia" you guys are frothing over...

Are children ‘dying like dogs’ in effort to build better batteries?

Wow. From the Deseret News, no less. I really wasn't expecting a socially progressive article from them, but judging from the way Utah has dealt with its homeless problem, I shouldn't be surprised. Bring in modern mining equipment and let the kids go back to school.

 

[/pine]

What do electric cars and diarrhea have in common...?

The hope, “I will make it home.”...!

 

[sd455dan]

Better batteries?

And here I thought Tesla's new 4680 cell was aiming to be Cobalt free...

Tesla’s 4680: A Cobalt-Free Silicon Battery Solution - New Industry Products

Tesla’s new 4680 battery solution offers a tabless electrode to improve thermal management and deliver 6x the amount of power while decreasing the internal resistance of the battery cell.

eepower.com

 

[Grumpycat]

Still apprehensive since there is no free market for electricity and I don't like being without choices as I have for fuel now.

You keep saying that but:

1) You are free to move to where electricity is cheaper. But you are where you are because of the cost of electricity, land, food, education, opportunity, and whatnot. For how many of those do you have competitive free markets?

2) If you don't like the cost of utility electricity, you are free to run a genset.

3) Or build a solar farm to make your own electricity. Maybe a wind farm? Few have hydro opportunities. Sadly government won't give you a nuclear license.

4) You think you have choices for fuel now? Your only choice is in who you select to truck it from the nearest fuel depot. It all comes out of the same pipe and it is almost certain your Shell stations' base fuel was not refined by Shell. Gasoline is sold and resold an average of 7 times before the final sale at the gas pump. At the very least the refiner sells to the pipeline. The pipeline sells to a local distributor who sells to the station who sells to you.

$15,000 will buy the parts for a complete 10kW PV farm, no storage.

Most of the country averages the equivalent of 5 hours of full sun/day no matter sunrise at 5:38AM and sunset at 7:50PM, and sometimes cloudy, the net average is as if the sun shines at full intensity for 5 hours then nothing.

10kW for 5 hours is 50kWh.
18,250 kWh/year.
182,500 kWh/10 years for $15,000 is $0.082/kWh not counting time value of money.

Moderate storage battery could double the cost. But you would have essentially fixed price and the system is free for years 11-25 of its expected life.

In most of the country Tesla will install such a system with about 36kWh of battery storage for $50,000.

Don't say you do not have options for electricity.

 

[3930dave]

I'm sure this won't matter to the tree hugger movement:

Read this one today. Not all peaches and cream, this here "utopia" you guys are frothing over...

Are children ‘dying like dogs’ in effort to build better batteries?

Cobalt, lithium, tantalum........... diamonds...... off-shore recycling. It's an old story, that doesn't get much traction with the green movement.... their version of Inconvenient Truth.

People would sooner jump out the window of the highrise Foxconn tenement they live in, than keep building new iPhones.....

It ain't a pretty business.

I'd like to see the industry data, on lithium recovery rates - specific to EVs, but also for all lithium batteries.

But, we went down the Rabbit Hole some time back, round about the time people started celebrating dismantling hydro-electric installations.

Rgds, D.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Cobalt, lithium, tantalum........... diamonds...... off-shore recycling. It's an old story, that doesn't get much traction with the green movement.... their version of Inconvenient Truth.

People would sooner jump out the window of the highrise Foxconn tenement they live in, than keep building new iPhones.....

It ain't a pretty business.

I'd like to see the industry data, on lithium recovery rates - specific to EVs, but also for all lithium batteries.

But, we went down the Rabbit Hole some time back, round about the time people started celebrating dismantling hydro-electric installations.

Rgds, D.

The old incinerators burned the lithium, but the new hydrometallurgy process will recycle everything but the plastic, and should work regardless of the charge exchange medium.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I'm sure this won't matter to the tree hugger movement:

Read this one today. Not all peaches and cream, this here "utopia" you guys are frothing over...

Are children ‘dying like dogs’ in effort to build better batteries?

If you were buying store bought chewing or snuff tobacco in 1956 you could have been supporting 6 year old child labor. I dropped tobacco plants all day long and received one quarter.

Neither my dad or his friend had a vehicle worth more than $50 or running water on the farms.

The child labor provided by my friend and I that day helped lift both families a notch out of poverty. Unlike our fathers my friend and I finished high school and brought our kids home from the hospital in cars worth $1000 or more to houses with running water.

Think about what you type before you hit Post.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I just watched this and thought it was interesting. I can't speak to the technical skills of the guy but we can give him an A for effort at least. It is to be a solution to use solar for AC without a bank of batteries required. Maybe in part two he will actually get his Tesla charging with the system.

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

If you were buying store bought chewing or snuff tobacco in 1956 you could have been supporting 6 year old child labor. I dropped tobacco plants all day long and received one quarter.

Neither my dad or his friend had a vehicle worth more than $50 or running water on the farms.

The child labor provided by my friend and I that day helped lift both families a notch out of poverty. Unlike our fathers my friend and I finished high school and brought our kids home from the hospital in cars worth $1000 or more to houses with running water.

Think about what you type before you hit Post.

So you didn't read the article at all, did you?

Read what was posted before you reply and hit Post.

And I worked on my family farm growing up as a kid, and didn't receive squat for out right pay. I got to live in the house, eat food and go to school with clothes on my back. Not one kid I knew growing up died while working on a farm. But I knew lots of kids that grew up on farms. Most of my peers in school did.

If you bothered to read the article, it has nothing to do with growing up in the US and working on a farm. It has to do with 3rd world mines, their working conditions, and how much it actually costs (in human lives, and worldwide environmental destruction) for you to feel good about plugging in your electric car and "saving the planet". As long as you never look at where these raw materials are coming from, or how they're extracted (mined or strip mined) and brought to market. Mining in third world countries will only continue and grow, because that's where it's cheapest to collect the raw materials from. And no one gives a TOSS about the impacts there. What little oversight there is can be easily brushed aside if you know where to drop off the suitcase full of cash.

All you're getting at the end of the day is the source point of the pollution is transferred to somewhere "else" that you cannot see from the charge station of your electric car. So if you can't see the pollution and destruction of the planet with your own eyes, it's not happening. Just plug your car in and go inside, because you're "saving" the planet.

I suppose it also doesn't matter that the iPhone in your hand was also built using child/slave/political prisoner labor?

These "things" come at a cost. Your "Feel Good Movement" is smoke and mirrors.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

So you didn't read the article at all, did you?

Read what was posted before you reply and hit Post.

And I worked on my family farm growing up as a kid, and didn't receive squat for out right pay. I got to live in the house, eat food and go to school with clothes on my back. Not one kid I knew growing up died while working on a farm. But I knew lots of kids that grew up on farms. Most of my peers in school did.

If you bothered to read the article, it has nothing to do with growing up in the US and working on a farm. It has to do with 3rd world mines, their working conditions, and how much it actually costs (in human lives, and worldwide environmental destruction) for you to feel good about plugging in your electric car and "saving the planet". As long as you never look at where these raw materials are coming from, or how they're extracted (mined or strip mined) and brought to market. Mining in third world countries will only continue and grow, because that's where it's cheapest to collect the raw materials from. And no one gives a TOSS about the impacts there. What little oversight there is can be easily brushed aside if you know where to drop off the suitcase full of cash.

All you're getting at the end of the day is the source point of the pollution is transferred to somewhere "else" that you cannot see from the charge station of your electric car. So if you can't see the pollution and destruction of the planet with your own eyes, it's not happening. Just plug your car in and go inside, because you're "saving" the planet.

I suppose it also doesn't matter that the iPhone in your hand was also built using child/slave/political prisoner labor?

These "things" come at a cost. Your "Feel Good Movement" is smoke and mirrors.

Can you share a link with more info about the "Feel Good Movement" you mentioned?

While I enjoy driving a quiet vehicle with no gas tank and transmission I got our bottom of the heap EV to understand the factors behind the paradigm shift from internal combustion engines to electric motors for transportation needs.

The EV evolution today is just getting started like the tractor evolution was 100 years ago. No serious farmer tries to make a living using 100 year old tractors today. The evolving lithium ion battery is not the future but only one stepping stone to get to a better method transportation in the future.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Unlike many Tesla fan boys this one seems emotionally stable.

 

[NoTrespassing]

I use less than 30kwh/day (about 26 actually). I'm bringing the average down.

Kevin

Was trying to reply to another post. Oh well.....

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I use less than 30kwh/day (about 26 actually). I'm bringing the average down.

Kevin

Was trying to reply to another post. Oh well.....

It's amazing what info can jump out from measuring anything. At the house I am sure we're using electric that provides little benefits. When we bought our 2016 Nissan Leaf SL in 2019 the 30 kWh battery was about to fail after 22K miles. The 107 mile range was down 30--60 miles based on my driving style needed to get back home or to some charging source. 5 weeks after buying it the battery triggered the warranty and Nissan replaced it with a new 40 kWh battery pack giving us a solid 150 mile range so I got more wasteful when driving locally. At some point I want solar for the house.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Unlike many Tesla fan boys this one seems emotionally stable.

I think he greatly underestimates the time the transition will take. My Mazda ICE pickup was manufactured in 2003. I suspect it will need new heads by the time it's 20 years old. I will spring for that expense, because new vehicles are so expensive, and it's hard to find mini pickups on the market nowadays. Judging from the used car market, I'm far from the only one making the decision to keep an old rig running.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I think he greatly underestimates the time the transition will take. My Mazda ICE pickup was manufactured in 2003. I suspect it will need new heads by the time it's 20 years old. I will spring for that expense, because new vehicles are so expensive, and it's hard to find mini pickups on the market nowadays. Judging from the used car market, I'm far from the only one making the decision to keep an old rig running.

I find the taxes due when trading or buying new can more than pay for repairs needed on the current vehicle most often but dealerships seldom see it that way.

The move to EV's will be slow until new EV's are cheaper than a similar ICE vehicle. That was to happen in 2025 but last week I read now it's 2027. Nissan lost out on EV's because battery packs fail under warranty. Our 2016 Leaf battery failed in 2019 at 25K miles and the warranty was 8 years or 100K miles after some lawsuits.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Sounds like there is some confusion of the F-150 pricing options.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

I find the taxes due when trading or buying new can more than pay for repairs needed on the current vehicle most often but dealerships seldom see it that way.

The move to EV's will be slow until new EV's are cheaper than a similar ICE vehicle. That was to happen in 2025 but last week I read now it's 2027. Nissan lost out on EV's because battery packs fail under warranty. Our 2016 Leaf battery failed in 2019 at 25K miles and the warranty was 8 years or 100K miles after some lawsuits.

There is no sales tax in Oregon, so no taxes on a car purchase or trade, but I take your meaning. My typical vehicle runs well over 300,000 miles before I retire it. Keeping a rig running that long costs me an average of $1500/year in repair bills. With reasonable care to the interior and exterior, I can keep it looking good, though leather seats start to break down after 20 years.

The Google wizard says the average age of cars on the road is 11.9 years and 25% of cars on the road are 16 years. If they quit making ICE vehicles now, it would be 2035 before half the cars on the road were EV, and 2060 before current vehicles qualify as antiques.

I'm much more interested in self-driving vehicles than battery powered. I'm already in the age group where I have to personally appear for a vision test to get my drivers license renewed. In another 15 years I might not be safe on the road, which will put a real crimp in my lifestyle. I convinced my mother to hang up her car keys at 90 after watching her turn right into a crosswalk occupied by children and not noticing that she almost ran them over. There comes an age when no matter how good a driver you are, the computer will be better.

All I need to do is keep my old pickup running for another 15 years.

 

[cqaigy2]

I think he greatly underestimates the time the transition will take. My Mazda ICE pickup was manufactured in 2003. I suspect it will need new heads by the time it's 20 years old. I will spring for that expense, because new vehicles are so expensive, and it's hard to find mini pickups on the market nowadays. Judging from the used car market, I'm far from the only one making the decision to keep an old rig running.

Good point. I put $4k into my 2000 Ford Ranger and expect to drive it another 5-10 years. But i've only owned one new car, my current 2014 Subaru.

 

[MossRoad]

My trusty 93 Suburban just bought the farm a few months ago. Rust. I got it 13 years ago for $5K and put $1K into it over the years.

Was out in Oklahoma last week and upgraded to a 2003!