Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

[MossRoad]

Ya right. An ev that needs 50-80 amps to charge. Id like to see an arrey that can output that level of power for 8-12 continuous hours.

You know that's not how it works.

 

[MossRoad]

The new ford advertisement for their truck says it takes 80 amps for 8 hours. I’m not making this up. and I never only drive 30-40 mile a day. More like 200 doing service calls.

at 80 amp charging, they say the truck will get 30 miles for every charging hour. Then again they say

With Ford Intelligent Backup Power, enabled by the available 80-amp Ford Charge Station Pro and home management system Ford can help install, F-150 Lightning automatically kicks in to power your house. Once power is restored, the truck automatically reverts to charging its battery. Based on an average 30kWh of use per day, F-150 Lightning with extended-range battery provides full-home power for up to three days, or as long as 10 days if power is rationed, with results varying based on energy usage.

i install generators for a living. Nearly every one is a 22kw generator. How can they say the national average power use is 30 kWh per day. If you run the numbers, this is rediculous assumption. No way in he** this truck can operate a house for 3 days, unless there only running refer, freezer and a few lights. Add in wells, elect heat, heat pumps, ac units. Their nuts.

hows that old saying go......figures never lie, but liars always figure.

Maybe that's the average, and not the median (mean?)?

 

[MossRoad]

Average is just over 10K per day according to this.

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

www.eia.gov

 

[grsthegreat]

You know that's not how it works.

Its not. Enlighten me

 

[drssg]

I could see driving an EV car, with an ICE car in the household for backup.

I cannot see having an EV truck, with an ICE truck available for when I need long distance towing.

OTOH, I know people who own a truck, but do little our no towing. They just want to occasionally have the space available to load something into the bed. I'm sure it will fit some people's needs.

 

[Grumpycat]

Trucks and tractors really need 240 volt overnight charging where they normally park to work best. This even applies to our 40 kWh Nissan Leaf battery.

If wiring a new outlet 240V is trivially harder than 120V.

 

[Grumpycat]

Tesla plans to move to solar for primary at Super Chargers stations I read. I hope to build a garage and use it's roof to power our place to reduce our $5K annual electric bill. Power generation and storage costs are dropping like a rock.

I don't believe it.

10kW requires 33 panels of 300W. One 120kW Supercharger stall would require 400 panels and for most of the country would only produce 100% for 4-5 hours/day. That would be 9,000 sq feet of solar farm. 1/5th acre. Small Supercharger sites have (8) charging stalls.

Rational parts of the country are exercising the fine print of the Federal Grid Tie law which states the utility only has to pay the incremental cost of generation, which averages $0.015/kWh. Yet the utility sells your kWh for full retail price when you need it back. For me that is about $0.10/kWh. Have to give them 6.7 kWh for every 1 I get back.

The cheapest PV solar one can buy, installed, is about $2/Watt. So 10kW peak output costs $20,000. Or $240,000 per Supercharger stall.

At most Tesla will build a canopy covered with PV panels over charging stalls. The shade and protection from rain would be nice. For (8) stalls, 20-30kW for 4-5 hours/day.

 

[Grumpycat]

The charging stations could have local power storage. I read an article not long ago about using flywheels to store energy. A big flywheel can store an impressive amount of power, and release it quickly for a 20 minute charge. Then it could gradually spin up again, stabilizing the load on the grid.

Popular Science or Popular Mechanics featured flywheel storage in the 1970's.

You do not want to be near one in case of an earthquake. The stored energy will rip the spinning flywheel out of the ground.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I could see driving an EV car, with an ICE car in the household for backup.

I cannot see having an EV truck, with an ICE truck available for when I need long distance towing.

OTOH, I know people who own a truck, but do little our no towing. They just want to occasionally have the space available to load something into the bed. I'm sure it will fit some people's needs.

Keep in mind EV's be it cars, trucks, tractors, etc will not make up 50% of the world's supply before 2050.

Ford has not even built the battery factories needed just to pump out F150 EV's in mass for years to come.

When did you first hear about the Cybertruck? How many Cybertrucks did you meet on the road today?

For many EV's will be as rare as unicorns in our remaining years.

We know talk is cheap. Prototypes are easy and most will never see the light of day.

 

[Grumpycat]

A new roof, ability to be off/on grid and battery storage system with Tesla heat pumps should have our big ticket items out of the way for a few decades. If we can get solar and storage at no net cost over time that would be a retirement plus. Years ago this happened for some in farming.

You absolutely do not want solar on the roof if there is any place to put it on the ground. PV panels are heavy. Roof mount greatly complicates. Means the PV panels have to be removed to re-shingle the roof.

 

[Grumpycat]

250,000 to 350000 watts chargers. holy crap, how is the power grid supposed to support this.

What makes you think that is hard or even unusual today?

Small stores and restaurants get bigger utility service connections than that.

Besides, you are willingly being suckered into believing the same "gas station" model currently used is appropriate for EVs. But for long distance travel one will charge at 10kW at home during the night when the power grid is greatly underutilized.

If I remember correctly this is a 480kVA installation. If I remember wrong then it is 750kVA. Utility is the big grey cabinet inside the chain link fence. The actual Telsa Superchargers are the white cabinets in the fence. There are (4), each 150kW split between (2) stalls. (8) vehicles could draw 75kW each. Yes, more than 480 kVA, is believed Tesla can throttle the cars if necessary.

 

[MossRoad]

Its not. Enlighten me

The solar panels feed the grid. The grid is your battery. Anything you don't use goes back into the grid. When you want to pull a load that your array cannot handle, you pull from the grid. Like at night, when most people would be charging their car, not during the day, when they are driving the car.

 

[Oaktree]

Solar panels are not used to directly fast charge EV's or power your AC powered TV or frig.

So enlighten us. I would imagine the panels go into an inverter which coverts the DC to AC at whatever voltage the charger requires. A Watt is a Watt. If you need 80A @240V, you will need 800A @ 24 to get the same power (assuming your inverter is 100% efficient, which it isn't). Pretty big array, and that kind of draw for the 8-12 hr the batteries would be charging would require a huge battery bank as a reservoir.

 

[Grumpycat]

Ya right. An ev that needs 50-80 amps to charge. Id like to see an arrey that can output that level of power for 8-12 continuous hours.

Does not.

An EV will charge on whatever you can provide. Many can not accept more than 7.2kW, 30A at 240V. All Teslas can usefully charge at 10A on 120V. Believe the Fiat 500e could only charge on 120V. Friend had one and a 120V EVSE was all that was provided, all he ever used. It probably would have worked with a public 240V J1772, but many of those are only 208V. The EV will make do with whatever it is given.

The EV that can accept up to 80A at 240V is rare. Was a $3500 option on early Tesla Model S. In recent years up to 72A is standard AC input on S and X. Some 3 and Y can take 48A. Some were limited to 32A at 240V.

All Teslas can accept at least 300A at 400VDC. Very early Model S would only do 90kW, or 225A. The vehicle negotiates with the Supercharger as to what it wants vs what is available.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

So enlighten us. I would imagine the panels go into an inverter which coverts the DC to AC at whatever voltage the charger requires. A Watt is a Watt. If you need 80A @240V, you will need 800A @ 24 to get the same power (assuming your inverter is 100% efficient, which it isn't). Pretty big array, and that kind of draw for the 8-12 hr the batteries would be charging would require a huge battery bank as a reservoir.

Good question. Based on my $149 Harbor Freight solar panel system that's still in the box that was a home schooling project that never got out of the box thanks to good YouTube training on the subject typically solar panels mainly exist to power an energy storage device which with our HF system is a 12 battery.

Since the F150 Lighting is currently a fictional product without defined battery kWH size the charging needs are not known.

 

[Grumpycat]

Since the F150 Lighting is currently a fictional product without defined battery kWH size the charging needs are not known.

Charging needs are not really dependent on battery size. We have 2 data points from published articles:

1) 80A at 240V places 30 miles of range in the battery per hour.

2) 150kW DC charger will put 54 miles of range in the battery in 10 minutes. Another said 200 miles in 41 minutes which I find even more amazing as the rate could not have tapered much as the battery SOC increased.

One has 0.64kW/mile, the other 0.463kW/mile. The 300 mile battery must be at least 140kWh, maybe 200kWh, assuming 100% charging efficiency. Battery capacity is only an interesting data point. Performance is all that matters. The 2 points above define what one must put in, "300 miles" is what one gets out. Stuff in the middle doesn't matter.

 

[Grumpycat]

California's PG&E pays retail minus various operating expenses until parity - if you send more into the grid than you pull, they pay peanuts.
(Guessing CA qualifies as "marxist" in your version of reality)

Yes, what else would you call a government controlled economy? Price is what the government says.

Environmentalists love the word "sustainable" but there is nothing sustainable about providing electricity if one is forced to purchase electricity at price greater than what one can get it elsewhere. If allowed to continue without bounds the utility will go bankrupt.

Tell you what: I'll grow hay and you will have to buy it from me at the same price you sell hay to others. You get nothing for carrying my hay to other customers. Nothing for the shed to store hay. Then when I need hay I'll buy yours for the same price as you paid me.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

BYD may be the best EV maker in the world now and later.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

You absolutely do not want solar on the roof if there is any place to put it on the ground. PV panels are heavy. Roof mount greatly complicates. Means the PV panels have to be removed to re-shingle the roof.

I have a south facing rock slope about 100 x 400 that would be perfect for a solar installation. I don't know if I could sell the power. I'm the last house on the power line - it stops at my mailbox - and I suspect it's only a 5kv. primary.

 

[goeduck]

I have a south facing rock slope about 100 x 400 that would be perfect for a solar installation. I don't know if I could sell the power. I'm the last house on the power line - it stops at my mailbox - and I suspect it's only a 5kv. primary.

Why would it matter if your excess goes back into the grid?