Tractor Sizing First Time Tractor Buyer . . . need some advice!

[markfsanderson]

Greetings,
New to the area, purchased a horse farm here in NOVA. A fully functioning Ferguson TO-20 tractor was included in the deal - but it has no loader. I've looked at JD, Kubota, RK, and Kioti and it seems like these tractors have a great price/performance. Given that, I've read threads where the CK series is not considered enough tractor for handling hay bales. If not, why not? Here is my criteria below . . . any help in narrowing down tractor choice would be greatly appreciated.

Tractor Purchasing Criteria

Environment:
10 acre horse farm in Faquier County North Virginia (about 40 miles west of DC)
3 pastures of approximately 2 acres each
5 stable/2 tack room barn
30 foot machine shed/run-in
1/4 acre pond
Land mostly flat except for slight decline towards pond/woods
moderate size house with smallish yard; land mostly dedicated to horses, woods and pond
8' gates are minimum size

Needs
Using a front loader bale spike carry a single 900+ lb measuring 4'x5' hay bale and lift it 5 feet safely to clear hay bale feeders and unload F-350 Truck
Front end loader carry at least 1000lb of gravel, soil and etc.
Can mount a front third function and use it on grapple
In future mount a backhoe (not sold on it yet, but maybe in the future?)
(added)
Brush hogging
Dragging the horse ring
Pulling carts with up to 1000lbs of firewood and etc


Wants
USB/12V/110v charger/inverter output
cup holder
adjustable steering wheel
Nice Seat w/Arm Rest

Questions
What is minimum comfortable size for above needs?
What are rear remotes used for?
Do the grapple kits include the 3rd function installed?
Will R14 tires work for this environment?


Mark

 

[jeff9366]

The fundamental importance of TRACTOR WEIGHT eludes many tractor shoppers. Neophyte tractor operators are often intimidated by instability of tractors with small front wheels and large rear wheels, therefore frequently purchase tractors too light, too small for long term satisfaction. ((Tractors seem to shrink after about twenty hours of operating experience.))

The most efficient way to shop for tractors is to first identify potential tractor applications, then, through consulataton, establish bare tractor weight necessary to safely accomplish your applications. Tractor dealers, experienced tractor owners and TractorByNet.com are sources for weight recommendations.

Sufficient tractor weight is more important for most tractor applications than increased tractor horsepower. Bare tractor weight is a tractor specification easily found in sales brochures and web sites, readily comparable across tractor brands and tractor models, new and used.

Shop your weight range within tractor brands. Budget will eliminate some choices. Collect a dealer brochure for each tractor model in your weight range. I spreadsheet tractor and implement specs, often a revealing exercise. I have a column for cost per pound.

Selling a used tractor is easy. Selling multiple light implements in order to buy heavier, wider implements for a new, heavier tractor requires a lot of time. Depreciation on implements is worse than depreciation on a tractor.

When considering a tractor purchase, bare tractor weight first, tractor horsepower second, rear axle width third, rear wheel ballast fourth.

BUY ENOUGH TRACTOR​

 

[jeff9366]

New to the area. Purchased a ten acre horse farm in Northern Virginia.

Environment:
10 acre horse farm in Faquier County North Virginia (about 40 miles west of DC)
3 pastures of approximately 2 acres each
5 stable/2 tack room barn
30 foot machine shed/run-in
1/4 acre pond
Land mostly flat.

Needs
Using a front loader bale spike carry a single 900+ lb measuring 4'x5' hay bale and lift it 5 feet safely to clear hay bale feeders and unload F-350 Truck
Front end loader carry at least 1000lb of gravel, soil and etc.
Can mount a front third function and use it on grapple
In future mount a backhoe (not sold on it yet, but maybe in the future?)

The tasks you have listed are more suited to an all-terrain Skid Steer (or Compact Track Loader variant) rather than a tractor.

Skid Steers and CTLs have more powerful Loaders than tractors, rear engines to counterbalance front end loads, and no narrow, rotating/steering front axle, which lead to tractor rollovers when tractors lift heavy loads. Skid Steer provides more loader lift in a much more compact machine but you give up the tractor's Three Point Hitch.

VIDEOS: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tractor+versus+skid+steer







To move and lift Round Bales five feet numerous experienced operators use a 4,000 pound bare weight tractor.

To move and lift 900 - 1,200 pound Round Bales nine feet SAFELY most would recommend a 5,000 pound bare weight tractor.

VIDEOS: Kubota MX Series VS. Kubota M Series - YouTube

Kubota BX-B-L-MX-M | What series is right for you? - YouTube


Some use Pallet Forks to move round bales and perform grapple carrying tasks. Ten acres with a home and three pastures should not demand a grapple for residual 3-4 acres. I prefer tractor simplicity whenever possible. Pallet Forks are simple.

VIDEOS: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pallet+forks+vs+grapple

 

[Peter 315]

Kubota MX........

 

[Citydude]

^^^ yes, an MX series is what I recommend as well.

 

[jeff9366]

Questions
1) What are rear remotes used for?
2) Do the grapple kits include the 3rd function installed?
3) Will R14 tires work for this environment?

1) Rear remotes are used to hydraulically power attachments which will only be cycled intermittantly.
One PAIR required for each function.

Box Blade scarifiers/rippers up/down

hydraulically powered Three Point Hitch - Top Link and right Lifting Rod. ( Box Blade adjustments.) (Rear/Angle Blade adjustments.)

VIDEOS: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tractor+rear+remote+ports


2) No


3) Yes - however R14s are four ply tires. R4/industrial tires are tougher six ply tires which outfit around 80% of compact tractors. Flats on tractors are misery.

Skid Steers come with ten ply tires in most cases.

 

[jeff9366]

Wants
USB/12V/110v charger/inverter output
cup holder
adjustable steering wheel
Nice Seat w/Arm Rest

Kubota 'Grand L' model of 3,800 - 4,000 pounds bare tractor weight.

VIDEOS: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kubota+grand+l+series

My 2013 Kubota Grand L came with Titan brand R4 ten ply Skid Steer tires in front as standard equipment.

 

[markfsanderson]

The tasks you have listed are more suited to an all-terrain Skid Steer (or Compact Track Loader variant) rather than a tractor.

Skid Steers and CTLs have more powerful Loaders than tractors, rear engines to counterbalance front end loads, and no narrow, rotating/steering front axle, which lead to tractor rollovers when tractors lift heavy loads. Skid Steer provides more loader lift in a much more compact machine but you give up the tractor's Three Point Hitch.
...

Thanks for the advice . . . My TO-20 can still work (for now) and should be able to do the work that requires a PTO ( brush hogging ). I'll need to edit my question to include that requirement. Your advice of buying heavier is well taken, I've had similar advice (size it and double it) from others as well.

Mark

 

[jjp8182]

Wants
USB/12V/110v charger/inverter output
cup holder
adjustable steering wheel
Nice Seat w/Arm Rest

Questions
What is minimum comfortable size for above needs?
What are rear remotes used for?
Do the grapple kits include the 3rd function installed?
Will R14 tires work for this environment?

The wants may quickly drive you to a cabbed premium line of tractors (e.g. Kubota Gand L or Kubota M4 lines on the smaller end).

As for minimum size I'd think the Kubota Grand L's (or L4701),MX, M4, or even M5 or something in the John Deere 3, 4, or 5 families (or equivalent from other brands) would likely do the job with the larger sizes being more comfortable/suitable. If you're driving around with bales on the machine I wouldn't recommend a skid steer or CTL as they generally tend to be slower and a rougher ride than tractors. A compact telehandler would probably be the better non-tractor option - particularly if you'll be stacking the bales for storage (though a compact wheel loader could also do the job).

Rear remotes permit use of external hydraulic cylinders/swtches or hydraulic motors (depending on type of rear remote). Most (but not all) implements with hydraulic motors will have flow recommendations/minimums that are beyond most small compact tractors - the most notable exception being hydraulic augers which will frequently have different models to support different minimum/maximum hydraulic flow rates.

Note sure what's meant by grapple kits(?), but having a 3rd function installed with the loader will permit use of loader attachments that have additional hydraulic functionality (e.g. grapples, augers) without running hoses to the rear remotes or installing a separate diverter valve.

If you're not sold on a backhoe it's probably worth looking at renting a compact/mini excavator (when needed) rather than buying a backhoe for the tractor.

Just my :2cents:

 

[jjp8182]

This: https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/haying/433356-what-tractor-buy-move-large.html

..may also be worth a read when it comes to the hay handling aspect.

 

[BrkMstr]

My CK3510HSTSE, has no issues with lifting 1000lbs, that is one of the reasons I went with Kioti rather than another Kubota. I needed / lifted a lot of crushed stone, had to lift over 5' rails on dump trailer - bucket lifted well over 1K, I believe it's rated for around 1,900 - the SE offers the seat / cup / steering / rear remotes / mirrors / linked / cruise / adjustable stabilizers, electronic PTO and more - you would need to add the inverter it does have the 12V outlet - I use the rear remotes for my snow blower tilt chute, and hydraulic center link during the summer - they are used for many other attachments as well, back hoe, post digger, stump grinder etc. I believe you would appreciate the R14's just make sure they are the heavy ones as some come with 2ply sidewall's which, to me do not work well with heavy loader use - make sure you get the 6ply - for what you've listed I would not have any issues with the 3510, with the CK's you can go up to the 40HP. If you go with the heavier bails, I've moved some over 2K, than I would go with the DK or the NX - bottom line, talk with the dealers and try them, a good dealer will let you put on the folks, brush hog etc see how they set up / comfort - it's a lot of money make sure you get what you want - I run a 72" finish mower, 60" brush hog, Pine Rake, 66" Front Blower, 48" Pallet folks, Quick-Hitch, Trailer mount - did not get a grapple but yes if you have the dealer install the kit you will get the third function controller and the quick connects up front on the loader......

 

[PILOON]

Did U specify new vs used?
If used one advice is to hire a competent tractor mechanic to check out the purchase B4 plunking down hard earned cash.
Preferably one that is familiar with the brand.
Might just be the best $$'s you'll ever spend.

 

[markfsanderson]

BrkMstr,
Thanks for speaking from direct experience with the Kioti tractors! I'll approach the dealer with this model in mind . . . thanks again!

Mark

 

[markfsanderson]

Piloon,
I'll edit my OP and put in new . . . for a new-ish tractor owner (i've owned my TO20 for 7 months now, so I'm *completely* new) I'd like to stick with new.

Thanks!

 

[coobie]

Wow fist page of posts recommend Kubota H,mm.I own both products Kubota & Kioti go drive them both and make your choice.Back in 2012 we saved over $8,000 buying kioti tractor over a comparable Kubota tractor.Both make great tractors.

 

[jjp8182]

Wow fist page of posts recommend Kubota H,mm.I own both products Kubota & Kioti go drive them both and make your choice.Back in 2012 we saved over $8,000 buying kioti tractor over a comparable Kubota tractor.Both make great tractors.

...might be due to spread/frequency of different dealerships. Personally I'm more familiar with Kubota and JD as they're what I'm more familiar with and have seen more of ....where on the other hand I'm not sure I've ever even seen a Kioti tractor in person though there's a dealership a little more than 30 miles away ...and almost every other brand has at least one dealership with a 20 mile radius -- JD actually has three(?), Kubota two (both multi-brand dealerships), and NH, Case, MF, LS, Mahindra, and even RK all have at least one (usually multi-brand) dealership as well.

So really what hasn't been said yet is that the dealer makes the difference. Personally I'm not sure I'd buy a JD in my area just because the nearest JD dealerships are part of a large chain and have (from what I've seen) the stereotypical large chain employee attitudes. Just me, but I'd much rather deal with either the smaller chains or family dealerships that put more emphasis on quality support. For me one of the Kubota dealerships is located on my drive between work and home (makes buying parts/new implements really convenient), is a customer-focused multi-generation family-owned dealership -- which just made it a simple choice since Kubota also manufactures a tractor that had the features/performance I wanted.

Sooner or later everything breaks or needs replacement parts or even just routine maintenance parts and unless it's a disposable item that dealership support or availability of parts is something worth considering. ...especially since not all tractors have the same maintenance intervals. From what I've seen buying oil or hydraulic fluid (and other parts) in the quantities needed for a tractor can also offset initial savings when the tractor is used heavily/routinely.....

No brand loyalty here (last I checked none of them had any to me) - just things I've observed and the things with which I'm most familiar from past interactions.

 

[IndyIan]

I'd get a ~4000lb tractor with 50+hp. Then you can lift bales carefully without something on the 3pt and run good size common implements. I can't really think of a time my tractor has been too big but it could use another 20hp to run my buddies old round baler. He keeps buying and fixing old farm equipment and its convenient that my tractor can run most of it at times when his tractors are tied up or in the shop.
For brands I'd limit it to your local dealers and get a sense of who will back you up if needed. Kioti happened to have the best dealer near me, and be cost competitive so it was an easy decision. I think this website is the best for researching individual tractor models for issues so do some searching here once you narrow down which dealers you want to deal with.

 

[4570Man]

I'd get a ~4000lb tractor with 50+hp. Then you can lift bales carefully without something on the 3pt.

I wouldn’t bet on that.

 

[jeff9366]

I'd get a ~4000lb tractor with 50+hp. Then you can lift bales carefully without something on the 3pt.

Neither would I.

 

[Egon]

Probably the main item is lift height to unload the F350. Once you get the proper lift height the rest of the tractor will be sized accordingly. Also note the required lift height will be considerably more than five feet.