Renovating my house in the suburbs

[MossRoad]

Couple of questions...

- Why do they require a new wire from the street?
- Instead of cutting the driveway and trenching, can't someone do a horizontal boring? The cable company does horizontal boring in our neighborhood all the time instead of the overhead wires. The go right under the street, driveways, etc.... takes them less than an hour most times. So, it might be something for you to look at.
- When I had to go under my driveway for a sprinkler line, I dug a trench on one side perpendicular to the driveway and used a piece of plastic water pipe connected to a garden hose and jetted under the driveway. I left the 3/4" piece of pipe and used it as a conduit for the sprinkler line. Is that something that is possible for you?
- When we moved our electric meter from one side of the house around the corner to the adjacent side for aesthetic reasons, we put in a new electrical panel about 4 feet from the old panel. We pulled the old panel feed from the meter back into the house and fed it from a double pole breaker in the new panel. Then we fed the new panel to a new disconnect outside under the meter with new wiring. This allowed us to then install new wiring into new breakers in the new panel at our own pace. It was nice that I could kill the old panel without killing the entire house. Or, I could pull the disconnect under the meter, and kill the new panel to work in there safely. Since we were not adding any circuits, only replacing existing ones, no permits were required, only an inspection.

 

[airbiscuit]

When you move a panel like that, how do you deal with existing wires being too short to make it to the new panel?

 

[MossRoad]

When you move a panel like that, how do you deal with existing wires being too short to make it to the new panel?

We didn't move the old panel. We left it in place.

I installed all new wiring for the appliance circuits (washer/dryer, dish washer, well pump, air conditioner, furnace) first, as I wanted them off the old panel, as they draw the biggest loads. I did not re-use any of the old wire on any of those circuits. As I go along, I remove the old breakers and cover the blank spaces in the old box.

For circuits that I didn't want to replace completely, like lighting and receptacles, I traced the wire back to the first outlet or fixture, and ran new wire from there to the new panel.

Really, the only advantage to doing it this way was that I could take as long as I wanted to move circuits off the old box and onto the new one. It's been 25 years, and I still have a couple left on the old box. :laughing:

 

[airbiscuit]

You must be good at fishing.

 

[dragoneggs]

Not mandatory but basically nobody here will work on them and everybody says they're a fire risk due to some issue with overloaded circuits not tripping and some falsified UL testing back in the day. Mine trips just fine. Maybe it's just a local racket to keep the electric contractors happy?

When I bought our house, the home inspector said the FP panel should go. I negotiated the house price down to swap the panel and add a mechanical interlock for a generator.

 

[dstig1]

The beams look really good! :thumbsup:

 

[Muhammad]

Couple of questions...

- Why do they require a new wire from the street?
- Instead of cutting the driveway and trenching, can't someone do a horizontal boring? The cable company does horizontal boring in our neighborhood all the time instead of the overhead wires. The go right under the street, driveways, etc.... takes them less than an hour most times. So, it might be something for you to look at.
- When I had to go under my driveway for a sprinkler line, I dug a trench on one side perpendicular to the driveway and used a piece of plastic water pipe connected to a garden hose and jetted under the driveway. I left the 3/4" piece of pipe and used it as a conduit for the sprinkler line. Is that something that is possible for you?
- When we moved our electric meter from one side of the house around the corner to the adjacent side for aesthetic reasons, we put in a new electrical panel about 4 feet from the old panel. We pulled the old panel feed from the meter back into the house and fed it from a double pole breaker in the new panel. Then we fed the new panel to a new disconnect outside under the meter with new wiring. This allowed us to then install new wiring into new breakers in the new panel at our own pace. It was nice that I could kill the old panel without killing the entire house. Or, I could pull the disconnect under the meter, and kill the new panel to work in there safely. Since we were not adding any circuits, only replacing existing ones, no permits were required, only an inspection.

The issue is with the permitting process and inspections. The building code here specifies that all panel replacements are "upgrades" regardless of whether you're actually upgrading it or keeping the same amperage. All upgrades must follow current building code. Building code says you can't use the same conduit to run a new line. So it must be a new line. New trench. New conduit. 3 feet down. It also has to pass a feeder test so any 90 degree angles that catch the wire would fail. I think the whole ordeal involves five inspections.

Yeah one could just replace it without a permit and then if it ever failed and caused a fire your homeowners insurance would deny your claim.

Things are locked down pretty tight here. Can't touch much on your house without a permit. Technically moving one light fixture requires a permit.

 

[MossRoad]

You must be good at fishing.

I worked in I.T. for 30 years in a 140+ year old building.

Small drill bits, long stiff wires for probing, 5' flexible drill bit, fish tape, and a big old tub of joint compound!

 

[MossRoad]

The issue is with the permitting process and inspections. The building code here specifies that all panel replacements are "upgrades" regardless of whether you're actually upgrading it or keeping the same amperage. All upgrades must follow current building code. Building code says you can't use the same conduit to run a new line. So it must be a new line. New trench. New conduit. 3 feet down. It also has to pass a feeder test so any 90 degree angles that catch the wire would fail. I think the whole ordeal involves five inspections.

Yeah one could just replace it without a permit and then if it ever failed and caused a fire your homeowners insurance would deny your claim.

Things are locked down pretty tight here. Can't touch much on your house without a permit. Technically moving one light fixture requires a permit.

YIKES!

 

[coldsteelva]

I worked in I.T. for 30 years in a 140+ year old building.

Small drill bits, long stiff wires for probing, 5' flexible drill bit, fish tape, and a big old tub of joint compound!

Corollary to the adage "Shoot, Shovel, Shut up" : "Poke, Pull, Plaster" - nothing to see here.

 

[Muhammad]

Got the living room beams finished up. I want to make one more beam for the dining room but will do that when other stuff is done.

If you're curious about the spacing, look at the fireplace and windows which is what I based the placement on.

 

[grsthegreat]

holy cow.....i forgot how sucky calif building codes are. i have replaced quite a few federal pacific (Zinsco) panels over the years....Zinsco used to advertise "Our breakers NEVER trip". here they allow the old panel to act as a junction box as long as the front (dead front cover) can be sealed with a padlock or a couple of screws. if you need old panel removed, you have to fish from nearest outlet/switch/appliance to new panel.

there used to be a company that made styrofoam beams ,and such, that were hard to tell from real wood. i remember using them many moons ago. i guess they figure, there up there 12 feet, whos to know. i guess companies like them still exist Faux Wood Beams - Foam Ceiling Beams

when replacing service here you can reuse old conduits as long as they meet current sizing restrictions set forth by NEC codes. as far as pulling thru existing conduit, as long as you can tie it onto your truck and yank it thru, good to go. (Im not joking)

 

[dragoneggs]

Got the living room beams finished up. I want to make one more beam for the dining room but will do that when other stuff is done.

If you're curious about the spacing, look at the fireplace and windows which is what I based the placement on. View attachment 672110View attachment 672111

That's fantastic!

 

[MossRoad]

That looks great! :thumbsup:

 

[Muhammad]

holy cow.....i forgot how sucky calif building codes are. i have replaced quite a few federal pacific (Zinsco) panels over the years....Zinsco used to advertise "Our breakers NEVER trip". here they allow the old panel to act as a junction box as long as the front (dead front cover) can be sealed with a padlock or a couple of screws. if you need old panel removed, you have to fish from nearest outlet/switch/appliance to new panel.

there used to be a company that made styrofoam beams ,and such, that were hard to tell from real wood. i remember using them many moons ago. i guess they figure, there up there 12 feet, whos to know. i guess companies like them still exist Faux Wood Beams - Foam Ceiling Beams

when replacing service here you can reuse old conduits as long as they meet current sizing restrictions set forth by NEC codes. as far as pulling thru existing conduit, as long as you can tie it onto your truck and yank it thru, good to go. (Im not joking)

Thanks guys.

Yeah I've seen the Styrofoam beams... still would have been $6k for those.

Biggest issue I ran into was cupping of the wood, and in fact the wood I bought was already cupped. The miter edges separated even more as I left them out in the hottest heat wave we've ever had in California. I think to do these right you really need straight lumber and a climate stable environment for the wood.

Speaking of California, yes it's really silly with the building codes. Just heard from somebody about a palm tree growing near an electric transformer box. The homeowner wanted to remove the palm to stop it from possibly damaging underground lines... power company came out and said if you damage the line while removing it, they'll charge $50,000 to fix it.

Well it just so happens the next week an unidentified driver smashed into the transformer and took off. The power company came out and told the homeowner that they (power company) needed to remove the palm tree to repair the transformer. No charge to the homeowner.

So that's one way homeowners are getting stuff done.

As for me I'm just going to keep the stab-lok until I need to trench for something else. Maybe I'll look for a main breaker on ebay to keep as a backup in case mine ever fails.

 

[MossRoad]

....
As for me I'm just going to keep the stab-lok until I need to trench for something else. Maybe I'll look for a main breaker on ebay to keep as a backup in case mine ever fails.

That's a good idea. Right after we bought our current house, with the old electrical panel, I changed out a few breakers. I found an electrical supply salvage company. Kinda weird. But it was an old school just stuffed with salvaged electrical components. Looked like an episode of Hoarders! They had replacement components for just about anything ever made. We got a bunch of stuff for my employer, and I found stuff for my house, so picked them up cheap. Unfortunately, they are now out of business. However, e-bay should be a good place to look.

 

[EddieWalker]

Speaking of California, yes it's really silly with the building codes. Just heard from somebody about a palm tree growing near an electric transformer box. The homeowner wanted to remove the palm to stop it from possibly damaging underground lines... power company came out and said if you damage the line while removing it, they'll charge $50,000 to fix it.

I left CA in 2002 and it's amazing to me how much the state has changed. I just learned about the True Up fee from PG&E. A friend in Gilroy has 2,900 square feet and 80 solar panels. She just got a bill for $2.703.25 because she used too much electricity during the heat wave. Friends in the Bay Area are commenting about how much their True Up bill is and one said it was $3,500!!!!

 

[Muhammad]

I left CA in 2002 and it's amazing to me how much the state has changed. I just learned about the True Up fee from PG&E. A friend in Gilroy has 2,900 square feet and 80 solar panels. She just got a bill for $2.703.25 because she used too much electricity during the heat wave. Friends in the Bay Area are commenting about how much their True Up bill is and one said it was $3,500!!!!

Yeah that's crazy, we are lucky enough here in San Diego that the just turn our power off when they run out.

 

[grsthegreat]

I left CA in 2002 and it's amazing to me how much the state has changed. I just learned about the True Up fee from PG&E. A friend in Gilroy has 2,900 square feet and 80 solar panels. She just got a bill for $2.703.25 because she used too much electricity during the heat wave. Friends in the Bay Area are commenting about how much their True Up bill is and one said it was $3,500!!!!

holy crap.........im so glad i left that hole 27 years ago. I thought it was bad then.

 

[MossRoad]

I left CA in 2002 and it's amazing to me how much the state has changed. I just learned about the True Up fee from PG&E. A friend in Gilroy has 2,900 square feet and 80 solar panels. She just got a bill for $2.703.25 because she used too much electricity during the heat wave. Friends in the Bay Area are commenting about how much their True Up bill is and one said it was $3,500!!!!

I thought that true up deal was an annual settling of the bill for people with solar panels. The way I read that, your friend used $2700 more in electricity for the year than she produced. Her solar system wasn't sized large enough to cover her usage, so she had to buy power from PG&E. At least I think that's the case. :confused3: