Kioti 4510 AL41

[Aussiekioti]

First time poster, hoping for someone who has had similar problem or can shed some light on the AL41 Loader components. Only 150 hrs on my 2012 Kioti, don't know if oils or filter have ever been changed but will do soon. When using forks and lifting a heavy pallet (Approx 350kgs) the arms lift it ok, but the forks then "sag/droop" so anything on the pallet would slide off. Yes it is heavy and worse when further forward/out on the forks, but everyone I speak to says it should not droop. It should hold the pressure. I had a hydraulics guy look at it and he measured the pressures and the curl pressure was as low as 1500psi maybe 1800psi under load. He bypassed the valve on the arms (self leveling valve I'm told, but he was not familiar with it so did not know what was normal operation of the valve). When bypassed, it did not droop and the full pressure was getting to the curl rams. Operation was a little jerky/responsive and I think we lost the levelling feature. To him this meant the problem was in the valve, not oil filter and oil age etc. But he could not do anything further as Kioti dealer would not give him, or did not know the internal workings of the valve or a technical schematic etc. I have also turned down the relieve valve on this self leveling valve by a quarter of a turn and this seems to have improved it, but I don't want to go too far and this was after the hydraulics guy was gone so I did not have a pressure gauge when doing it. The Kioti dealer has the complete valve block setup in stock for $500, but this would not necessarily fix the problem. I contacted Walvoil directly and they said failure very unusual, likely just the relief valve in it, so they sold me one of these for $50 which I have not yet installed. My questions are: (1) Anyone else have similar experience
(2) Do all AL41s have this self leveling valve or is it an option (ie: can I just bypass it completely without issue if wanted.
(3) Is the relief valve in this leveling valve the whole system relief valve or just some sort of adjustment for the levelling function? How much can I screw it in without worry? If not all AL41 have a self leveling valve, what do they then have as a relief valve?
(4) does anyone know what psi values should be at both the rams, if I know this I may be able to measure and adjust to the correct settings?
(5) Does anyone know how many psi the rams can take until seal failure? (To help determine relief valve setting, as fully screwed in this valve has a top range of I think something like 2800psi.
(6) Is there any other relief valves in this circuit and if so where?
I will attempt to post a photo of the valve block I mention which is for self levelling, in which the black thing on top is a relief valve

 

[Leejohn]

The thing you are calling a relief valve might not be. I would guess that is flow adjustment to set the self leveling. The relief valve should be in the loader control valve.

 

[Aussiekioti]

Thanks Leejohn, can you see the photo in my question? So the adjustment on this valve would do what...can I safely screw in the relief valve thing and or how do you adjust and why when this is bypassed my problem disappears? The loader control valve, is this the big stick control, I think called DCV also. ?

 

[ptsg]

So, you have a mechanical self leveling loader.

All mechanical self leveling loaders will have that relief valve. The relief valve is there to prevent damage to linkages, pins, etc.

Here is an example, let's say you fully dumped your bucket near the ground ( full dump, no stroke left on the cylinder). If you lift the loader, the mechanical linkage, will try to dump the bucket further, but that ain't happening because it's already hitting the stops. So there is where the relief valve comes into play. Basically opens, allowing the cylinder to give, before stuff breaks.

Same principle happens in full height and full curl. Once you come down, something needs to give, that will be the relief valve.

Now, someone has been messing with the valve before. That's why you may have been having problems. It's my understanding that this valve should be set at system pressure, or slightly below.

350kg is nothing for that tractor. These tractors usually run at 2500 to 2600 psi or around 180bar on system pressure. That relief valve should be set somewhere around that. Not higher, otherwise the lift cylinders won't be able to over come the relief valve.

A service manual for the loader and tractor would be ideal to set this thing right. Since you got 2800 psi with the relief valve cranked all the way down, I would set it somewhere around 2400 to 2500 psi and work the tractor for a while.

Oh, and welcome to TBN.

 

[oldnslo]

Pure Mechanical self leveling does not require any relief valve or any hydraulic input it is all done with mechanical linkage.

Hydraulic self leveling which is what you are describing should not reduce curl pressure if operating correctly. Without a schematic can only guess on what valves are in that block. Some models have option to turn leveling feature off others do not. Like Ptsg states there is some form of safety to allow self level to work if curl cylinders are at end of stroke but again this should not limit curl pressure below system operating pressure.

If you just try and curl with a load does that work properly or is it always weak?

 

[Aussiekioti]

Is my photo in my post visible? I'm now confused with what is mechanical and what is hydraulic. I think I have hydraulic self leveling and the block shown in my photo is I think the device. It doesn't seem to have any way of turning off the feature. The curl seems to work fine and mostly does not seem weak, but the tractor is new to us. I can fill a bucket of soil and it curls without problem and does not seem slow. The only problem I have with the curl is that when under a heavy pallet, it won't curl and or will just curl but slowly "flop/droop" back down. If the black valve in the photo can be adjusted and result in higher curl pressure it sounds like it is ok to do this? Knowing there should be no loss of pressure due to the self leveling feature is good to know. I think I will be changing the oil and filter and the black valve/spring assembly and will report back, but will first just wind down the valve and try to determine which fix actually has the biggest impact. Time to buy a pressure gauge setup! Still keen for any other tips or experiences with the block in the photo and confirmation that adjusting this valve will/can increase curl pressure. I've also read about some tractors have a "Regen" function for dumping, how do I know if I have that?
Thanks for the comments so far!!

 

[ptsg]

You have a mechanical self leveling loader. Note the parallel arms/linkage over the main loader arms. But this system needs a safety relief valve (the block shown on the picture). If that relief valve is set low (as it is now), the bucket will drop under load or weight of the 350kg pallet in this case.

That relief valve should be set around the system pressure. Somewhere around 2500 to 2600 PSI.

 

[Aussiekioti]

Ahhhh, now it is all making much more sense, this block really is only a relief valve!! Knowing that I think I will buy a gauge, change oil and filter, change the relief valve bits then adjust. OMG thanks for the help!!! Will report back here when done.

 

[oldnslo]

Aussie,
Could you please take a photo showing the complete side view of your loader. Reason for asking is that I am curious to see if you the mechanical version of self level in Europe is different than what I have seen in the USA. Here in the USA I have never seen a mechanical system with a manifold like that in your picture.

 

[Aussiekioti]

Hi, see attached photos, hopefully!! While I have your attention, I also have a loader joystick which today only learnt it had float mode, which I alsoearnt can be handy. But this stick also has two buttons, one does the open/close of the 4in1 bucket. What does the other do or is it for other uses possibly not on my tractor? Lastly in my reading, when dumping a load I've read that some loaders have a REGEN function. How do I know if I'd have this and is it important?

 

[Leejohn]

That relief valve is for the 4 & 1 bucket. I'm with Oldnslo on this I can not see why a relief is needed for that loader other then the one in the loader control valve.

 

[oldnslo]

Aussie,
thanks for the pictures since they do confirm mechanical self leveling.

Couple of questions on the block with the unknown black valve.
What do the two hoses going towards the bucket attach too?
What do the two smaller hoses going back towards the tractor connect too?
Same question for larger hoses coming in top and bottom of block.

Knowing how this is connected might help determine what that block does.

No clue on what the buttons do.

Regen dump: This makes dump function faster and reduces or eliminates the "floppy" bucket syndrome experienced on some models of tractors. Try pushing your joystick past normal dump position, if you have regen feature the lever should snap over detent feature and your dump with either speed up or slow down.

 

[ptsg]

That relief valve is for the 4 & 1 bucket. I'm with Oldnslo on this I can not see why a relief is needed for that loader other then the one in the loader control valve.

That relief valve block is not for the 4 and 1 bucket. I did explain what it is for on post #4.

You'll see on every mechanical self leveling loader, that they use the same relief valve block. It's there to prevent stuff from bending or breaking once the the curl cylinders are at the end of the stroke. If there is no relief valve mounted on the loader arms, it's because the loader valve has built in relief valves on the work ports, which will end up doing the same thing as the block.

 

[oldnslo]

ptsg,
I am possibly out of touch on newer mechanical self level but our older Gehl 4500 skid steer was 100 % mechanical and did not have any relief valve in the circuit. The geometry of the parallel linkage prevent bending things. You could have the bucket fully dumped with tip of bucket on the ground and raise to full height. Bucket just stayed dumped. Reason for this is that Mechanical system does NOT extend or retract the curl cylinders while raising or lowering. The parallel linkage moves the cylinder position which in turn changes the bucket angle.

Hydraulic self level the curl cylinders extend or retract in relationship to the lift - lower cylinders. On these you do need a relief since you can now try to force oil into a cylinder that is at end of stroke.

I suspect that block is for an auxiliary function potentially the 4 in 1.

Aussie,
sorry for hi-jacking this thread.

 

[ptsg]

ptsg,
I am possibly out of touch on newer mechanical self level but our older Gehl 4500 skid steer was 100 % mechanical and did not have any relief valve in the circuit. The geometry of the parallel linkage prevent bending things. You could have the bucket fully dumped with tip of bucket on the ground and raise to full height. Bucket just stayed dumped. Reason for this is that Mechanical system does NOT extend or retract the curl cylinders while raising or lowering. The parallel linkage moves the cylinder position which in turn changes the bucket angle.

Hydraulic self level the curl cylinders extend or retract in relationship to the lift - lower cylinders. On these you do need a relief since you can now try to force oil into a cylinder that is at end of stroke.

I suspect that block is for an auxiliary function potentially the 4 in 1.

Aussie,
sorry for hi-jacking this thread.

I understand what you're saying but what would happen if you fully dump the bucket with the tip on the ground till it hits the hard stops on the quick attach (visible on one of the latest pictures)? If you try to lift the loader then, something has to give. Hence the need for the relief valve.

You can see it connected to the curl/dump circuit on the latest pictures from the OP. That relief valve is actually a crossover relief valve but with a single relief valve.

EDIT: Was going through a Gehl 4510 parts diagram, just to understand how they did it, and they do use a relief valve on the curl/dump circuit but most likely mounted somewhere near the valve and hard to see.

 

[oldnslo]

Aussie
Have you been successful in determining if you have regen dump on that loader?

 

[Aussiekioti]

Nope still don't know about REGEN and still not really sure what it does but from what you are saying it would be part of the joystick DCV? That said I hav just learnt about and used FLOAT mode and am loving the difference this makes back dragging!!? Are we now all back into agreement that this block is just a relief valve and that I should set it closer to system pressure. I can definitely hear it clicking on and off when full curl or I think reverse curl more so. I'm also hearing a squishy sound I think in the block or hoses so I'm thinking an oil and filter change is way overdue. As said, will report results when done. I will probably first do the oil and filter and then test. Then I'll adjust valve to pressure and test, then will replace the valve and reset and test. Happy to be hijacked as am learning lots!! Does anyone want to still know where the hoses go? My hydraulics expert who tested the pressures determined that to get an understanding, but without knowing what is going on inside the block he could not work out cause of loss of pressure and when he contacted the dealers they were not helpful or did not know or have the schematics he was wanting!

 

[oldnslo]

Aussie,
If your hydraulics expert traced the lines did he tell where they connected?
The two lines running up the frame towards the bucket. Trace them and see if you can determine what they connect to. I.e. do they connect to the tilt cylinders?

 

[Aussiekioti]

Hi guys, hopefully this post will alert some of the helpful contributors and apologies for the delay. For those curious I've attached a few more photos and have drawn a picture showing where the lines go to. In the picture, where I show a line going to a ram, it is actually going to a junction that goes to each side, but I show if it is the back or front of the ram. I have also included a diagram of from the parts list and note that the actual part is called an "anti-shock block" which is obviously what most of you have indicated. As for its point of failure, I still have not changed the oil or swapped over the relief valve so will still report back on that at some stage soon! I still haven't worked out if I have REGEN, which by the sound of it is like the "float mode" but instead of passing an indent on the up/down, I should have a similar indent in the dump direction?! Still wondering if anyone can answer what the second button on my joystick may be for (if anything) or if for some more exotic attachments? (Currently the thumb button is used to change the left right curl action into open/close of the four in one bucket! Also, on the electronic distribution block that the four in one bucket attaches to, to the left attached to the electronic part there is a rounded plastic cover thing, it looks like it adjusts something, any idea what it does???

 

[ptsg]

The distribution block is actually called a diverter valve. As it diverts the fluid from the curl/dump to the 4n1 bucket with the press of a button.

The rounded plastic cover is the solenoid valve. When energized ( by pressing the button) it moves the spool inside of the valve to divert the flow.

As to why you have two buttons, to me it's a case of whoever installed that 3rd function, just used a joystick with two buttons.