Ballast Centre of Gravity

[CoyPatton]

Noted. I never take my tractor out of 4x4.

I do not know your property so that may be appropriate, but would not be for 95+% of tractor owners. You should NEVER use 4x4 on solid surfaces (this will be in all owners manuals) included very hard packed soils. There is some lag between the front axle and rear axle due largely to different size tires and partially to how the 4x4 is designed.what that means is on surfaces that do not allow for slippage you run a huge risk of damage to the mechanical components of the 4x4.
Again your owner’s manual will tell you to use 4x4 when need! For a very few operators is that going to be 100% of the time.

 

[oosik]

I only use/need 4WD very seldom. Mainly when I try to plow snow up out of the valley on my driveway. I will usually just quit all that foolishness and plow down into the driveway valley. Some years, if we get an exceptionally heavy snow fall, I'll use it to keep the tractor going straight as I plow snow with the rear blade. I generally use my tractor 85-95 hours per year. I know for certain - less than five of those hours are in 4WD.

Using 4WD on any hard surface is a sure, quick way to see just how good your tractor warrantee is.

Look at your Op Manual - it will provide the info you need.

 

[kenlip]

CoyPatton and oosik, Thanks for the responses.

All my manual says about using 4-wheel drive is:
* Depress the clutch pedal before engaging the front
wheel drive lever.
* If the front wheel drive lever is difficult to set to OFF,
stop the tractor, turn the steering wheel and move the
lever.
* Tires will wear quickly if front wheel drive is engaged
on paved roads.
* Front wheel drive is effective for the following
jobs:
1. When greater pulling force is needed, such as working
in a wet field, when pulling a trailer, or when working
with a front-end loader.
2. When working in sandy soil.
3. When working on a hard soil where a rotary tiller might
push the tractor forward.
4. For increased braking at reduced speed.

One day, I had driven to the property in a 2-wheel drive car, towing a trailer. There was no way the car and trailer were going get up the hills, so I parked the trailer at the bottom and drove up to where the tractor is kept. Driving down to pick up the trailer, with only an empty bucket attached, I suddenly found myself slipping out of control and heading for some rocks. I doubt I would have been injured, but the tractor would have been badly damaged had I hit the rocks. The brakes were totally ineffective on the steep, slippery surface. Somehow, I managed to regain control at the last minute and avoided colliding with the rocks.

This might not have happened had I not had the bucket on or had some ballast at the back.

I was totally puzzled as to why this had happened, given that I had made the same trip numerous times with no problem at all. Eventually, I found that the selector had been moved and the tractor was in 2-wheel drive. I put it back into 4x4 and regained full control on the hills.

Even if it is not ideal for the longevity of the tractor, I think it makes sense to keep it in 4x4 rather than possibly find myself careening out of control and ending up tumbling down the side of the mountain, into the ravine below.

 

[kenlip]

The topographical map of my property. We drive the tractor on the road between the red marker and the grey marker.

View attachment 667715

 

[FTG-05]

Be very cautious going down hill. I know of no tractors that have brakes on the front axles. While being in 4x4 in a low range and low gear will provide greater traction on the front axle and help to control movement. If the rear tires lose traction so does your ability to brake—again be cautious!

The last time I bushhogged my hill, I was going down one of the steepest parts - at the top - when a small branch came into the cab and flipped the 4x4 lever out of gear.

Yea, I took the "Two Inch Ride". It's called two inches because that's how much seat cushion you suck up before you reach bottom and get back control.

That's when I decided to hire my hill bushhogging job from now on. From then I only bushhog when I go up or down the hill to mow my lower field. I either stay out of brushy areas coming down or keep my left foot on the 4x4 lever to prevent it being knocked out of 4x4.

Hill from the top:

From the bottom; I came down just to the left of the brush pile:

 

[CoyPatton]

The last time I bushhogged my hill, I was going down one of the steepest parts - at the top - when a small branch came into the cab and flipped the 4x4 lever out of gear.

Yea, I took the "Two Inch Ride". It's called two inches because that's how much seat cushion you suck up before you reach bottom and get back control.

That's when I decided to hire my hill bushhogging job from now on. From then I only bushhog when I go up or down the hill to mow my lower field. I either stay out of brushy areas coming down or keep my left foot on the 4x4 lever to prevent it being knocked out of 4x4.

Hill from the top:

From the bottom; I came down just to the left of the brush pile:

Folks quite simply put, the harrowing experiences you have described are times that you should be using FWA if equipped.
However the excerpts from the manual clearly indicated that for the typical user 95+% FWA is not a full time usage item. I never said it should not be used as needed! And as I said I do not the property so it is entirely possible that you may be in that less than 5% that may need to use it.
I will give you that if your tractor has a model that is 2wd and yours is FWA model. That with both tractors in 2wd, the non FWA model will pull better in 2wd mode.
Bottom line use FWA when needed.

 

[Mat4644]

Manufactures spin the front tires slightly faster to maintain steering on soft conditions. Otherwise the wide rears would push the fronts when trying to steer. Personally I think it's an non-issue except on dry hard surfaces.

 

[PILOON]

Fronts are generally considerably smaller than rears hence wear at different rates.
For that reason fronts are generally 5% bigger when new to compensate for faster wear.
For that reason it is preferable to never use 4WD on paved surfaces as fast wear will result.

 

[Michael In Tennessee]

One day, I had driven to the property in a 2-wheel drive car, towing a trailer. There was no way the car and trailer were going get up the hills, so I parked the trailer at the bottom and drove up to where the tractor is kept. Driving down to pick up the trailer, with only an empty bucket attached, I suddenly found myself slipping out of control and heading for some rocks. I doubt I would have been injured, but the tractor would have been badly damaged had I hit the rocks. The brakes were totally ineffective on the steep, slippery surface. Somehow, I managed to regain control at the last minute and avoided colliding with the rocks.

This might not have happened had I not had the bucket on or had some ballast at the back.

I was totally puzzled as to why this had happened, given that I had made the same trip numerous times with no problem at all. Eventually, I found that the selector had been moved and the tractor was in 2-wheel drive. I put it back into 4x4 and regained full control on the hills.

Even if it is not ideal for the longevity of the tractor, I think it makes sense to keep it in 4x4 rather than possibly find myself careening out of control and ending up tumbling down the side of the mountain, into the ravine below.

I did that once on my MX4800. Won't do it again. Fun ride! I generally keep it in 4wd, but had earlier in the day been on the road in front of the house.

Like others suggested, for ballast, I'd get a box blade or such. You seem to need one anyway. I managed to get an 8 ft box blade at an auction for small money. It weighs something like 850lbs. Mostly though, I just keep my BH92 backhoe attached. Its weights more like 1500 lbs and sticks out further. I also have my tires mounted as outboard as possible. I have a fairly steep property. Even then, I drive side-hill only as necessary and then very carefully. Drop on low side wheel in a hole and your day might get bad. ROPS and belts at all time just in case.

 

[kenlip]

There have been some fantastic responses - thank you to everyone.

The more I think about it the more questions come to mind. Perhaps I am 'overthinking' everything

I would imagine there must be a 'sweet-spot' (a small range) for ballast weight relative to tractor weight and loader capacity. If the ballast is too light, it won't do a good enough job balancing the load on FEL. But, if it is too heavy is there not a risk of the load on the front wheels decreasing to the point where one loses front wheel traction in 4x4 and one loses steering control.

One might need the heavy weight of the ballast when moving a heavy load on the FEL but I would imagine that the weight could be a problem once one has removed the load from the FEL.

Of course, it isn't just the weight of the ballast but also it's distance from the back and front axles. It's the moment of the centre of gravity of the ballast about these fulcrum points that really matters.

 

[Wagtail]

I run a specific 3PH ballast box as a typical counterbalance to my FEL and whichever attachment I have on there and what task I'm going to use that attachment for. The ballast box is loaded with bricks, which can be added/subtracted to adjust the weight, plus the height at which I 'carry' it adds to the balance and 'centre of gravity' and stability. Ideally, I'd love to get my hands on the rectangular weights of a broken weight/exercise contraption to replace the bricks.

I typically run bale-spikes on my FEL so my brick-laden ballast box, carried low, is good to handle/transport a 6x5 round bale. "Low and slow" is the mantra for any FEL work. If I'm running my tiller or slasher off of the 3PH, I'll always put my 4in1 bucket on the FEL to counterbalance.

There are threads here on TBN of people making 3PH counterweights... however, they're of a fixed weight, typically due to the use of concrete used to form them.

(I know that you're not a 'newbie', Mate. I'm writing most of this response to someone who is reading this thread as a 'newbie'. :thumbsup

 

[kenlip]

I run a specific 3PH ballast box as a typical counterbalance to my FEL and whichever attachment I have on there and what task I'm going to use that attachment for. The ballast box is loaded with bricks, which can be added/subtracted to adjust the weight, plus the height at which I 'carry' it adds to the balance and 'centre of gravity' and stability. Ideally, I'd love to get my hands on the rectangular weights of a broken weight/exercise contraption to replace the bricks.

Thanks, Wagtail

Would you mind sharing a photo or two of your set-up?

Cheers
Ken

 

[CoyPatton]

There have been some fantastic responses - thank you to everyone.

The more I think about it the more questions come to mind. Perhaps I am 'overthinking' everything

I would imagine there must be a 'sweet-spot' (a small range) for ballast weight relative to tractor weight and loader capacity. If the ballast is too light, it won't do a good enough job balancing the load on FEL. But, if it is too heavy is there not a risk of the load on the front wheels decreasing to the point where one loses front wheel traction in 4x4 and one loses steering control.

One might need the heavy weight of the ballast when moving a heavy load on the FEL but I would imagine that the weight could be a problem once one has removed the load from the FEL.

Of course, it isn't just the weight of the ballast but also it's distance from the back and front axles. It's the moment of the centre of gravity of the ballast about these fulcrum points that really matters.

Your guess of a sweet spot is accurate and has been mentioned. And unfortunately that sweet weight changes as ur load weight changes. Most folks compromise and use the weight at either what they need typically (trial and error process which using rear forks and a tote of water could be yours). Or they go for weight to offset the max weight their loader will handle (usually plus some weight as a safety net).
You have to be much greater at math formulas than I am to express it but the lessons learned on the elementary school playground back it the day apply! I am referring to what we called a ‘see-saw’ now I believe it is a tetter-todder. As a kid in the 60’s they had 3 spots to ride the board at. Remember the further from the pivot point the weight was, a smaller person could lift a heavier one.
Same principles apply to ballast (front and rear). Notice non loader tractors often have front ballast weights to offset implements.
And yes heavy weight can cause a loss of steering thus the front ballast.

 

[ericm979]

I would imagine there must be a 'sweet-spot' (a small range) for ballast weight relative to tractor weight and loader capacity. If the ballast is too light, it won't do a good enough job balancing the load on FEL. But, if it is too heavy is there not a risk of the load on the front wheels decreasing to the point where one loses front wheel traction in 4x4 and one loses steering control.

I don't think that sweet spot is narrow. Sometimes I have my PTO chipper on the back when I am doing grapple work. It's 1100lbs and the weight is farther back than the 550lb box blade. The difference is only barely noticeable.

The only loss of front traction I have noticed is the front pushing in turns when carrying something heavy in the grapple and turning on wet ground. The answer is to slow down.

 

[fruitcakesa]

I have been carrying concrete ballast all the time as I pretty much do all loader work and at 500#+- it balances most FEL loads.
I have since mounted a winch on the 3ph and weight is comparable but more of that weight is up high.
While it may balance the FEL load, it seems like it takes less to lose rear traction than with the concrete

 

[FTG-05]

Folks quite simply put, the harrowing experiences you have described are times that you should be using FWA if equipped.
However the excerpts from the manual clearly indicated that for the typical user 95+% FWA is not a full time usage item. I never said it should not be used as needed! And as I said I do not the property so it is entirely possible that you may be in that less than 5% that may need to use it.
I will give you that if your tractor has a model that is 2wd and yours is FWA model. That with both tractors in 2wd, the non FWA model will pull better in 2wd mode.
Bottom line use FWA when needed.

What is FWA?

 

[CoyPatton]

What is FWA?

You call it 4x4, but to be 4x4 the tires on the front must be of the same size as the rear. If this is not the case in most utility and smaller size tractors they are all actually Front Wheel Assist = FWA!

It is actually much more complexed than same size tires, it has to do with how the power is directed to the front wheels, but in simple mechanical terms, manufactures will not send the power levels to different size tires due to the damage that will occur!
You should hear the term tire lag in ‘4x4’ frequently (including if you read it your owners manual)! Why does this exist?
Different size tires! Imagine the damage if the same power was delivered!
Note your designed to run on the highway 4x4 truck does not deliver the same power to the axles either, there is lag there also, note the delay in shifting out of ‘4x4’. This is mechanically related. All Wheel Drives are worse about this

 

[Rancher Ed]

You call it 4x4, but to be 4x4 the tires on the front must be of the same size as the rear. If this is not the case in most utility and smaller size tractors they are all actually Front Wheel Assist = FWA!

It is actually much more complexed than same size tires, it has to do with how the power is directed to the front wheels, but in simple mechanical terms, manufactures will not send the power levels to different size tires due to the damage that will occur!
You should hear the term tire lag in 4x4 frequently (including if you read it your owners manual)! Why does this exist?
Different size tires! Imagine the damage if the same power was delivered!
Note your designed to run on the highway 4x4 truck does not deliver the same power to the axles either, there is lag there also, note the delay in shifting out of ?x4? This is mechanically related. All Wheel Drives are worse about this

This is not entirely correct, as the term 'power' is being incorrectly substituted for 'rotational input speed'. Power is the rate at which work is done, and in the context of a tire the same amount of power can be delivered by a small tire (lower torque with higher speed) as a large tire (higher torque and lower speed).

There is no standard definition of 4x4 vs 4WD (4-Wheel-Drive) vs MFWD (Mechanical-Front-Wheel-Drive; primarily used by John Deere) vs FWA (Front-Wheel-Assist). FWA originally referred to the ability for the front wheels to be hydraulically driven to assist when additional traction was needed, and the driving speed was not linked to the rear tires in any way. In general, 4x4, 4WD, and MFWD are all used to refer to drive systems in which the front and rear tires are mechanically coupled (a locked center differential, or no differential at all) to produce approximately the same travel speed (not necessarily the same wheel speed).

"Lead/Lag" refers to the difference in speed between the front and rear tires. Most systems are designed with 2-4% front wheel lead because when turning the front tires travel farther than the rear tires, so a slight lead helps minimize binding in the drive train. (There is also a benefit to having the front pulling versus the rear pushing when traveling in a straight line) For a simple example, our tractor will have rear tires with a circumference of 4 and front tires with a circumference of 2. As part of the drive train the manufacture will gear the tractor differential so that the front tires spin 2.1 times the speed of the rear tires. This means each time the rear tire makes one revolution and travels a distance of 4, the front tires will have made 2.1 revolutions and traveled a distance of 4.2 (a 5% greater distance).

AWD (All-Wheel-Drive) refers to systems that have a center differential that allows the front and rear tires to turn at different speeds instead of being locked together. This allows the systems to be used on pavement and other hard surfaces without creating binding and excessive wear. AWD is primarily used in passenger vehicles, and I am unaware of any tractors that have an AWD system.

 

[skipperbrown]

If you use a 3 pt hitch pallet fork for your totes, an appropriately sized hydraulic toplink will make life a lot more enjoyable.

 

[CoyPatton]

If you use a 3 pt hitch pallet fork for your totes, an appropriately sized hydraulic toplink will make life a lot more enjoyable.