Winch: Hydraulic vs. PTO?

[Garrik]

I want to install a winch on my Kubota MX6000, to be used primarily for skidding logs. I have remote hydraulics in both the front and the rear - the front circuit, which is rated at 9.5 gpm at 2560 PSI seems plenty powerful enough to drive a fairly big hydraulic winch (certainly something in the 15,000 lb class, and probably 20,000 lb). Seems like one could build a nice winch mount for the SSQA pretty easily.

But most (many?) of the commercial skidding winches seem to be PTO winches designed to be mounted on the 3 point hitch.

Setting aside, for the moment, the question of whether mounting a winch on the hitch or the SSQA would be stronger/better/more reliable, any thoughts on hydraulic drive vs. PTO drive? Positive and/or negative points on either one? The specs for commercial products would seem to suggest that more power is available from a hydraulic winch driven by the front aux circuit than from a PTO winch given my ~55 PTO HP - but that doesn't really make any sense to me...

Thanks much!

 

[bcp]

A hydraulic winch may be designed as a recovery winch and be awfully slow for dragging logs. Even the PTO skidding winches are faster than PTO recovery winches.

Bruce

 

[jeff9366]

Seems like one could build a nice winch mount for the SSQA pretty easily.

This is a really bad idea.

Tractors are engineered to perform heavy work at the Three Point Hitch with the wide rear axle providing stability.

If you attempt to winch from the Loader you will disintegrate the Loader before long. You may hear the disintegration but probably not feel the disintegration in progress.

MORE: https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums...rs-cross-drawbars-illuminated.html?highlight=

 

[Stan B]

Setting aside, for the moment, the question of whether mounting a winch on the hitch or the SSQA would be stronger/better/more reliable, any thoughts on hydraulic drive vs. PTO drive?

I too have thought a hydraulic winch would be convenient, being that it would be easy to make it movable from the front to rear. There's probably always going to be more HP available at the PTO than the hydraulic outputs just due to conversion losses, but I don't think a winch, at least for skidding purposes, would max out any available HP. So, then it just comes down to matching the hydraulic motor at your available flow with a gearbox that gets you a few tons of pulling force at a reasonable line speed.

One example is this one, which uses a capstan design. Still though, notice it digs into the ground just like the PTO ones. I think the mounting config is the primary consideration. Take this hydraulic winch for example, rated at 11,000 lbs. If the highest rating on your loader (breakout) is around 3500 lbs, that winch could exceed that by a 3x factor. Any SSQA mount would need to have some kind of setup to "dig" into the ground like the PTO skidding whiches.

I though about designing something that could bolt onto my pallet fork frame that would provide a mount for the winch, and a few cleats that would dig into the ground. The intent being to winch the logs onto the forks. Still, off axis loads are tough on FEL arms. Another option would be to mount the winch to the tractor's frame on the front, behind the FEL if there is room. Kind of like how it would be mounted on an truck. Could also fab up a compatible mount for the drawbar on the rear, and figure some kind of quick attach pins.

But to circle back to your question, I don't think the prime mover (PTO vs hydraulic) matters; the overall system does. I mean, there are hydro and gear tractors that both get the job done and is a similar distincition.

 

[dougtrr2]

I think a hydraulic winch has some merit. The advantage I see with a hydraulic is being able to "feather" the pull. I like my Farmi PTO winch, but it is pretty much either engaged or not. I cringe at the thought of slipping the clutch. Maybe a logging winch clutch is different, but I just balk at slipping any clutch.

If you proceed, I would try to incorporate two features. The first would be to make the mount "dig in" to the ground like a PTO winch does. It would take a lot of stress off the tractor. The second would be to incorporate a two speeds, sort of like a log splitter. Slower for getting things broke loose and faster for the long haul.

Look forward to seeing how this project progresses.

Doug in SW IA

 

[oosik]

If you want to skid logs - why not get a 3-point skidder. They are designed, set up & specifically engineered to handle this situation. Unless you have the knowledge & skills - you might just be looking to build something that could be quite dangerous.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

I want to install a winch on my Kubota MX6000, to be used primarily for skidding logs.
Thanks much!

That right there SCREAMS pto winch!

Power with either is NO problem at all, but a hydraulic winch is slooooooow and you will very soon tire waiting for it, unless you are only going to pull a log or two every once in a while.

Another thing, a pto winch anchors itself to the ground, so it's pulling against "itself", that makes it very easy on the tractor.

There are other advantages, but those two are important enough, to show that a pto winch is far superior for pulling wood out of the woodlot, over a hydraulic powered winch.

ST

 

[Smokeydog]

I bought a Smart grapple with a 12k industrial warn hydraulic winch, ssqa mount. Modified it fit cat 2 3pt hitch also. The company in Montana is no longer in business. Plans changed and sold it local tree trimmer that they use also daily. For winching logs you have to engage the ground. Logging winches do this with a blade. Any system to transport the logs you have hitch or grapple. Can’t pull on the winch.

Use a milemarker hydraulic two speed hydraulic winch on my truck to mainly pull trees down.

If logging you need a logging 3pt winch.

 

[Garrik]

Tractors are engineered to perform heavy work at the Three Point Hitch with the wide rear axle providing stability.

If you attempt to winch from the Loader you will disintegrate the Loader before long.
]

Appreciate all of the thoughts very much.

Sorry, I should obviously have been more clear that I would build this winch assembly onto a blade as both the commercial PTO skidding winches and the commercial SSQA skidding winches do. Thus transferring the pulling force onto the ground, not the tractor. And of course in either case there would need to be a screen to protect the driver and the tractor.

Just really trying to think about power source differences between PTO and hydraulic. Either one could be mounted on the rear 3 point hitch by just running hydraulic lines back there from the front remote anyway...

 

[MossRoad]

9.5gpm at 2650 psi = about 14HP.

What's your PTO HP rated at?

Horsepower Calculator - Metaris Hydraulics

 

[Garrik]

lol - wait, we are allowed to do math? That makes it all too easy...

52 PTO HP on this tractor, so quite a bit more power available from the PTO now that you mention it. Thanks!

 

[MossRoad]

lol - wait, we are allowed to do math? That makes it all too easy...

52 PTO HP on this tractor, so quite a bit more power available from the PTO now that you mention it. Thanks!

:thumbsup:

 

[Sawyer Rob]

IF, that 9.5 gpm is the pump size, that is NOT what you will get at the remotes...

Also, are you quoting engine or pto hp?

BTW, even 9.5 gpm is going to make a slooow skidding winch!

SR

 

[RSR]

IF, that 9.5 gpm is the pump size, that is NOT what you will get at the remotes...

Also, are you quoting engine or pto hp?

BTW, even 9.5 gpm is going to make a slooow skidding winch!

SR

If it is a closed system under steady flow, conservation of mass says what flow rate passes through one location has to be the same flow rate that passes through all others. So, if it's 9.5 GPM at one place in the loop, it's 9.5 GPM everywhere.

 

[ovrszd]

That right there SCREAMS pto winch!

Power with either is NO problem at all, but a hydraulic winch is slooooooow and you will very soon tire waiting for it, unless you are only going to pull a log or two every once in a while.

Another thing, a pto winch anchors itself to the ground, so it's pulling against "itself", that makes it very easy on the tractor.

There are other advantages, but those two are important enough, to show that a pto winch is far superior for pulling wood out of the woodlot, over a hydraulic powered winch.

ST

Good stuff right there.

I used to have a Mile Marker 12K hydraulic winch. Extremely slow in low side. Extremely under powered in high side.

Most positive thing about a hydraulic winch is it will pull all day. Same with a PTO. No way with an electric.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

If it is a closed system under steady flow, conservation of mass says what flow rate passes through one location has to be the same flow rate that passes through all others. So, if it's 9.5 GPM at one place in the loop, it's 9.5 GPM everywhere.

Then, THAT wouldn't be what the pump is rated for!

SR

 

[RSR]

Then, THAT wouldn't be what the pump is rated for!

SR

???

I'm not sure what you're saying.

 

[MossRoad]

Stop arguing. The pump SIZE isn't 9.5 GPM. The pump RATING is 9.5 GPM at the given PSI. Several folks have interchanged SIZE with RATING, and it's no big deal and not worth arguing about and could be easily straightened out with some kind words rather than exclamation points.

Pump SIZE is measured in displacement.
Pump RATING is measured at specific flow (Gallons Per Minute) at a given PSI at a given RPM.

The tractor's hydraulic system won't give nearly the HP that its PTO will give. 14 VS 50, or about 3.5 times the power.

(good read on hydraulic pumps here: Engineering Essentials: Fundamentals of Hydraulic Pumps | Hydraulics & Pneumatics )

 

[Industrial Toys]

Why does it seem that one can find well performing hydraulic snowblowers, but hydraulic winches are always painfully slow? I mean, you could wrap a cable around a hydraulic snowblower auger shaft and probably move some timber, quite quickly!

I would like to have a SSQA mount hydraulic winch, with free spooling out and remote controlled operation (electric D05 Valve Block) for pulling pine logs out of the bush, as a one man operation.

I have yet to see anything that comes along used, fill this requirement.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

??? I'm not sure what you're saying.

I guess BOSS Moss thinks everyone is arguing!! DOH!

Anyway, what I'm saying is, what ever the pump is rated for output in GPM, that's NOT what you end up with at the remotes...

SR