Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

[two_bit_score]

On trucks or cars?

Makes of both, mainly.

 

[Agvg]

Top 15 cars in 2019, Norway

Tesla Model 3 (15*683)

Volkswagen Golf (10*025)

Nissan Leaf (6 127)

Audi e-tron (5 377)

Mitsubishi Outlander (5 048)

Toyota Rav 4 (4 977)

BMW i3 (4 851)

Hyundai Kona (3 471)

Hyundai IONIQ (3 356)

Skoda Octavia (3 118)

Jaguar I-PACE (3 080)

Toyota Yaris (2 889)

Volvo XC60 (2 646)

Volvo V60 (2 633)

Toyota C-HR (2 424)

 

[Agvg]

Commercial

 

[airbiscuit]

On trucks or cars?

Tractors!

 

[Gale Hawkins]

And Europe is a very difficult market to work in, as an example Honda that's are a large player has failed almost totally in Europe, most Japanese brands struggle, the Korean brands do better than the Japanese. US brands except Tesla have very little sale, here in Scandinavia we have som US pickup sales, new RAM and F150 is not uncommon, same with Chevy.

I saw today that Kio electric cars are shipping to Norway. The 64 kWa battery sounds like it should have a reasonable range but it does not carry a low ball price.

Kia Niro EV Pricing Announced For Norway

 

[two_bit_score]

Top 15 cars in 2019, Norway

Tesla Model 3 (15*683)

Volkswagen Golf (10*025)

Nissan Leaf (6 127)

Audi e-tron (5 377)

Mitsubishi Outlander (5 048)

Toyota Rav 4 (4 977)

BMW i3 (4 851)

Hyundai Kona (3 471)

Hyundai IONIQ (3 356)

Skoda Octavia (3 118)

Jaguar I-PACE (3 080)

Toyota Yaris (2 889)

Volvo XC60 (2 646)

Volvo V60 (2 633)

Toyota C-HR (2 424)

Thanks! I guess I worded my inquiry poorly. I was interested in what your personal observation was. But these lists are interesting and I appreciate you taking the time to research the question.


.

 

[Agvg]

When it comes to EV it's so common that nobody thinks of it anymore, on the VW Golf it's all most only EV versions that are sold in my area.

On commercial vehicles the EVs are much more rare but it's coming. EV pickups are not available so one company is retrofitting Toyota Hiluxes with Electric drivetrain, it's for use underground so that's why they want EV.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Well, you don't see much Chinese influence on Volvo, and I'm quite sure that Volvo will be made in Sweden in the future. Europe are much more protective when it comes to manufacturing, the Chinese brands that want to sell will eventually have to set up production lines here if they hope to succeed. And EU is very worried about becoming depending on China, it's a dictatorship that has bought knowledge cheap and we the idiots have given them all they wanted on a silver plate.

Since Volvo is a totally China owned it sounds like Europe as well as other parts of the world have accepted business rules have changed.

Fears for Volvo Expose Sour Turn in Sweden’s Ties With China - The New York Times

"But the limits of that freedom are increasingly apparent, as Sweden has unexpectedly become a bellwether for the European Unionç—´ ever more strained engagement with China. Swedish political and business leaders are asking whether the country rushed too swiftly into an economic relationship with China, with the Volvo deal as a renewed source of controversy."

"This year, Mr. Li announced plans to merge Volvo Cars with his Zhejiang Geely Holding Group, the parent of Geely Automotive, creating a global company and, in essence, swallowing the business whole. In Sweden, it triggered a national debate, with a swirl of rumors in its wake."

"Some Swedish officials who are reassessing ties to China have also raised national security concerns. Chinese investors have bought a variety of other Swedish companies, some of which make dual-use technologies that they are forced to share with the Chinese military."

"In March, however, citing a sharp increase in Chinese acquisitions of Swedish technology and knowledge-based companies, the Swedish Security Service, Sapo, labeled China the biggest threat to the country's national security after Russia. The purchases include a semiconductor company, Silex, and Satlab Geosolutions, a satellite positioning company."

We know that Chinese companies are used by the Chinese government as a way to get information and serve as a base for influencing other countries, Mr. Wastberg, the former diplomat, said.

In May, amid increasing concerns over the threat to national security, the government proposed new rules for mergers and acquisitions that would allow officials to block foreign takeovers of Swedish companies.

But the threat went beyond the economy, the intelligence service said, warning of China's stepped up efforts t��o influence basic freedoms and rights in Sweden, by t��rying to influence Swedish politicians and media. That seemed a reference to a spat over the arrest of a Hong Kong-based publisher who holds Swedish citizenship.

After the publisher, Gui Minhai, was abducted in Thailand and convicted in China, Sweden honored him with a human rights award. That prompted China's ambassador to Sweden, Gui Congyou, to issue a stark warning. We treat our friends with fine wine, he told Swedish radio in November, but for our enemies we have shotguns. "

Since the shotguns remark came directly from a China's ambassador we know that is a overt threat to all western nations. While the rest of the world is in a Pandemic panic China becomes more in control of the west perhaps. Their mark on Africa and South America is already known and they are making progress into Australia I read.

As I see it today China will rule the world's EV market place though China owned companies. I do not think the west meant to sell out to China but that we saw no other option for ourselves. I do wish we would have considered the future generations before it was too late. As we in the USA realized in 1950 the country that controls the world of manufacturing controls those with weak manufacturing capacity and weak forward business planning skills. The social liabilities the west has taken on carries a $$$ price tag that we have not computed. Just in 2020 the west has added may 25+ trillion in social related debt when we were already borrowing to pay the interest on prior debt.

EV's are here today but where they come from tomorrow is not totally clear in my vision yet.

 

[Agvg]

One of the big problems are that it's difficult to differentiate between Chinese business and the Chinese communist party, both Norway and Sweden have felt the rage of China if journalist or politicians have criticized human rights in China, the Nobel peace prize was given to a Chinese dissident and it took years before China wanted to behave them selves in a civilized manner.

They did not accept that the government did not controlled the Nobel peace prize and was deeply insulted. Western greed and uncontrollable capitalism have placed us in a very bad situation, but so far the need of the share holders for maximum profit means much more than keeping our western society stable and our citizens employed.

 

[two_bit_score]

Interesting Gale Hawkins!

 

[two_bit_score]

One of the big problems are that it's difficult to differentiate between Chinese business and the Chinese communist party, both Norway and Sweden have felt the rage of China if journalist or politicians have criticized human rights in China, the Nobel peace prize was given to a Chinese dissident and it took years before China wanted to behave them selves in a civilized manner.

They did not accept that the government did not controlled the Nobel peace prize and was deeply insulted. Western greed and uncontrollable capitalism have placed us in a very bad situation, but so far the need of the share holders for maximum profit means much more than keeping our western society stable and our citizens employed.

Do you think the EU is waking up more to a threat by China since COVID broke out?

 

[Gale Hawkins]

One of the big problems are that it's difficult to differentiate between Chinese business and the Chinese communist party, both Norway and Sweden have felt the rage of China if journalist or politicians have criticized human rights in China, the Nobel peace prize was given to a Chinese dissident and it took years before China wanted to behave them selves in a civilized manner.

They did not accept that the government did not controlled the Nobel peace prize and was deeply insulted. Western greed and uncontrollable capitalism have placed us in a very bad situation, but so far the need of the share holders for maximum profit means much more than keeping our western society stable and our citizens employed.

You make a good point that I share with others. The working mom's and dad's in China want nothing more than for their kids and grand kids to have a better life just like the rest of the parents world wide. This is not the same agenda all leaders have however.

I do think the Pandemic may save us if it wakes us up before the game ending buzzer sounds.

 

[Agvg]

Hope all nations understand that China is aiming at dominat the world and have the means and time to do it, China plays the long game, a long game that our maximum four years politicians and our 3 months view of share holders and CEOs don't even see. People talks about Russia as a treat but they don have any real power except nuclear weapons. And the US should try to reduce state dept, it places the US at risk in the long term.

France is worried, they meet China all over Africa, the same does the UK as both still have a close relationship with former colonies. EU is waking up but it's a difficult game when you have built up your rival with money and know how.

 

[Grumpycat]

Beating the dead horse that is arguing about the issues of hydrogen is inane...the key is improving the technology involved in producing it and dealing with the volatility...

Wishing for technology doesn't change the laws of physics.

Hydrocarbons store marvelous amounts of energy by virtue of being able to break molecular bonds and form new lower energy compounds while releasing the surplus energy.

Hydrogen is an attractive means of storing energy by virtue of its ability to form bonds with other elements such as oxygen resulting in lower energy compounds such as water while releasing the surplus energy.

To have energy to release we have to put that much energy in to pull raw hydrogen off other things, plus more energy because there is always a loss in transformation. Ironically the lowest cost of producing H2 is from evil natural gas hydrocarbon, the very thing H2 is supposed to save us from.

To store sufficient H2 in a small and light enough space to be practical it has to be compressed to over 4,000 PSI. That too takes a lot of energy. No amount of wishful thinking can change the fact that energy is required to compress a spring. Ideal Gas Law tells us the compressed gas will be very hot. The cylinder of compressed gas will cool to room temperature before it is used. And once again the Ideal Gas Law tells us the gas drawn off the cylinder will be very cold and have to be heated to be usable. In other words the great amount of energy to compress the gas is lost. Is more than lost because a similar amount of energy is required to heat the gas once it is re-expanded. Even if you used the gas cold it would have to heat itself with the energy it releases resulting in less usable energy.

Am sorry you think this is "beating a dead horse" but it is God's Laws of Physics.

 

[Grumpycat]

Still doesn't come close to the efficiency and low cost of fixed plant power generation.

Yep, plug it in at night. Then start on a 500 mile trip, with the small diesel generator adding charge along the way. It would never be used on trips within the range of the batteries. It's function is to extend the range on long trips.

Still makes no sense. Start with 200 mile range in a battery then your fanciful "small diesel generator" has to generate at a rate of 3/5ths the consumption to arrive with a dead battery at 500 miles. This vehicle has been in production since 2000. It is called "Prius" by Toyota. Only that the battery is only good for about 1/2 mile. And that "small diesel generators" are not as thermally efficient as a Prius gasoline engine, nor anywhere near as low of emissions.

The Prius uses its battery and electric motors to keep the engine running at optimal efficiency. The electric motors meet the instantaneous needs.

You are trying to solve a problem which you only imagine exists.

 

[Grumpycat]

Do you think the EU is waking up more to a threat by China since COVID broke out?

History teaches us that Europe likes being overrun by barbarians. They must like it, they let it happen over and over and over again.

 

[Agvg]

And then Europe is not a country, 1200 years ago I would have been a barbarian if you asked a Englishman

 

[SirMaxwell]

There has not been any real breakthroughs in battery technology in over 18 months...what makes the Nikola a breed apart from battery vehicles is their hydrogen fuel cell vehicles...

this and other non battery vehicles are the future of electric vehicles...battery powered vehicles (with current (NPI) battery technology) are just a flash in the pan and have no real future...

According to Nikola/Trevor, he has in fact made THE breakthrough. Apparently he has batteries twice as dense, twice as powerful, half the cost, of Tesla (The First Battery Breakthrough Story Of 2 Comes From Nikola Motors. There Will Be Many More. | CleanTechnica). Also, for the first couple of years he will NOT be producing Fuel Cells, first comes the Battery Electric Vehicles, then a couple years later the Fuel Cell.

 

[riptides]

Disposal too.

The issue with batteries is not how long they will last or how many charges they are good for...it is and always will be how long a charge lasts...

 

[cqaigy2]

Disposal too.

They are recycled.