Gravel road: Filling potholes with concrete????

[FTG-05]

I live at the end of a one mile gravel. Since I moved here in late 2013, I've been maintaining the road as have the previous owners of my property (the only owners of a tractor).

I finally was able to get out and do some work after all the rain we've had the last 6 months. In that 6 very rainy months, a lot of potholes developed. So I took my BB teeth to dig down and break the hard pan and get down to the bottom of the holes - as I normally do every spring. I did this on Wednesday. On Thursday, while using my rock rake to smooth and groom the road, I ran into one of my neighbor's. We started talking and he said he and his wife had been going down the road and filling the potholes with concrete and then raking gravel over them. Of course, when I took my BB down the road, it dug up and broke up all the concrete he had put down. He made it sound like a lot of concrete - when I asked him to show me, we only found a couple 6-8 inch pieces.

I asked him if he planned to concrete the whole road (of course not). I explained that filling potholes doesn't really solve the problem of why potholes formed in the first place (i.e. usually water) plus it prevents maintaining the road - which entails more than just filling potholes. And, as we found out here, maintaining the road will just tear them out.

I've reviewed a couple gravel road maintenance .pdfs I have including 003-07-NPS-gravelroads-sec1 (that is it's saved title, there is no title page), and Gravel Road Maintenance Manual (Maine DEP and Bureau of Land and Water Quality). The first doesn't mention concrete at all; the 2nd only in the context of crushed concrete.

When I started this gravel road work years ago, I spent a lot of time both here and on YT learning how to maintain my road. In all that time, I have never read or seen anyone mention filling potholes with concrete as a solution to gravel road maintenance.

Comments, suggestions?

 

[BrokenTrack]

I have never heard of it either.

Maine DOT will spread cement (not concrete) in powder form over a VERY tricky wet spot, glade it in with the gravel, with the moisture in the ground setting up the concrete to make a firm base, but they do it very, very, sparingly. Well I should say, I have only seen them do it once, and it was a swampy area.

I would just maintain the road like you have been, it seems like you know what you are doing.

Myself: I have an ever growing network of gravel roads myself. When I took over this farm in 2008, I would have to haul wood from stump to roadside by over a mile, but now I have snuck some all season, heavy haul roads back into the woods, so life is getting better.I figure by the time I get them all done, we will have hoover trucks, tractors and cars! (LOL)

If you are looking for more road information, the US Forest Service has a lot of information on roads too, and how to maintain them; in PDF Format, and in YouTube Videos. They use graders in their videos, but you can get some pointers nonetheless.

 

[BrokenTrack]

Now that I think about it, they do have EarthCrete, which I too have done. I have a gravel pit so I use gravel instead of soil, but if a person wants to make a concrete pad on the cheap, they can buy bags of Portland Cement, spread it evenly over the ground, then take a rototiller and mix up the soil/cement powder. Moisture in the ground will harden it eventually. Or, a person can add water, and then mix it up with their rototiller.

It goes without saying that after the mixture is churned up, you screed and trowel it like you would any concrete slab.

It is just a lazy-mans way of avoiding the use of a cement mixer.

(Note: for "blocks" you can do the same thing, but put the dirt/cement mixture in paper bags. Eventually they will harden into a block. Eventually the paper will disintegrate. This works good for "blocking" up around culvert ends and such.)

(Note 2: For "lightweight concrete", sawdust can be substituted for sand/gravel/soil to make Sawdustcrete.)

 

[FTG-05]

BT, good point about spreading concrete. I've done the same with old leftover concrete bags (the mix). But there I drop it into my bucket, break it up, then spread it over wet or problematic areas - areas where there should be more gravel but just too cheap to buy it.

 

[zzvyb6]

On our dirt county road (there is some gravel in there if you get out a magnifying glass), one 'fix' for the potholes and erosion was to switch to a single Garbage company with advice to the driver(s) to NOT do hard braking. We all noticed that the 4 garbage haulers were all in a hurry and doing emergency stops at every driveway.

Now one provider with smooth braking is helping immensly. The brake hop on the truck'(s) double axle was the major cause of the hole digging. We still have some people doing burnouts as they leave their house, but this becomes obvious.

 

[Hay Dude]

I once installed about 2 miles of metal t posts and barbed wire around a lake property (owner wanted NO trespassing or drownings)
I dug a small 5-gallon bucket sized hole, hammered 6’ t posts into bottom of hole maybe a foot and dumped a dry 80lb bag of concrete mix in each hole. Still standing 35 years later :thumbsup: There was no convenient way to mix concrete and carry it to post holes (the whole job was in undergrowth and thick woods. Ground was soft and moist).
Generally, ground moisture will be absorbed by the dry mix and harden pretty good. Not at strong as a property mixed crete, but good enough for post ballast.

 

[TractorGuy]

That's gonna be a real pain to maintain. I hope you and the neighbor came to the agreement not to do that any more.

Tell him if he wants to fill holes to use the same type fill that is on the road. Gravel or crushed concrete would work fine and you could mix and grade either.

We did a road with crushed concrete that was maximum 3/4" and it has been awesome.

 

[airbiscuit]

Noooooooooooooo. Concrete filled potholes will only create new potholes around their perimeter and make it impossible to grade. If you're in the mood to buy a new attachment, a box blade with rippers will help disturb the hard bottom of the pothole and give you "new" material to work with.

 

[fried1765]

I live at the end of a one mile gravel. Since I moved here in late 2013, I've been maintaining the road as have the previous owners of my property (the only owners of a tractor).

I finally was able to get out and do some work after all the rain we've had the last 6 months. In that 6 very rainy months, a lot of potholes developed. So I took my BB teeth to dig down and break the hard pan and get down to the bottom of the holes - as I normally do every spring. I did this on Wednesday. On Thursday, while using my rock rake to smooth and groom the road, I ran into one of my neighbor's. We started talking and he said he and his wife had been going down the road and filling the potholes with concrete and then raking gravel over them. Of course, when I took my BB down the road, it dug up and broke up all the concrete he had put down. He made it sound like a lot of concrete - when I asked him to show me, we only found a couple 6-8 inch pieces.

I asked him if he planned to concrete the whole road (of course not). I explained that filling potholes doesn't really solve the problem of why potholes formed in the first place (i.e. usually water) plus it prevents maintaining the road - which entails more than just filling potholes. And, as we found out here, maintaining the road will just tear them out.

I've reviewed a couple gravel road maintenance .pdfs I have including 003-07-NPS-gravelroads-sec1 (that is it's saved title, there is no title page), and Gravel Road Maintenance Manual (Maine DEP and Bureau of Land and Water Quality). The first doesn't mention concrete at all; the 2nd only in the context of crushed concrete.

When I started this gravel road work years ago, I spent a lot of time both here and on YT learning how to maintain my road. In all that time, I have never read or seen anyone mention filling potholes with concrete as a solution to gravel road maintenance.

Comments, suggestions?

Putting concrete, or even dry cement in potholes, is a totally stupid idea.
You will have concrete rocks to deal with as they rip out when grading.

 

[FTG-05]

I'm starting to see a consensus....

 

[CoyPatton]

I'm starting to see a consensus....

As you should. As most gravel road potholes are relatively shallow. Concrete put into them will have no holding strength as it would in a hole dug for a post.
The good if there is a good, is that the concrete placed into the potholes will break up somewhat easily as you dig with the scarifiers to cut up/into the ground/gravel to get rid of the potholes. You are in my opinion doing exactly what you need to do with your box blade to maintain the road and the concrete is not benefitting anything or anyone.
If the road is really wet, stay off of it as you have. If it is just damp, it may be easier to dig out the pothole instead of the ground getting really hard packed.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Now that I think about it, they do have EarthCrete, which I too have done. I have a gravel pit so I use gravel instead of soil, but if a person wants to make a concrete pad on the cheap, they can buy bags of Portland Cement, spread it evenly over the ground, then take a rototiller and mix up the soil/cement powder. Moisture in the ground will harden it eventually. Or, a person can add water, and then mix it up with their rototiller.

It goes without saying that after the mixture is churned up, you screed and trowel it like you would any concrete slab.

It is just a lazy-mans way of avoiding the use of a cement mixer.

(Note: for "blocks" you can do the same thing, but put the dirt/cement mixture in paper bags. Eventually they will harden into a block. Eventually the paper will disintegrate. This works good for "blocking" up around culvert ends and such.)

(Note 2: For "lightweight concrete", sawdust can be substituted for sand/gravel/soil to make Sawdustcrete.)

In Vietnam we called it soil cement. The mixture was engineered proportions. The laterite (clay) terrain there turned to mush in the rain. Same process except it was only used for the subgrade. Gravel base and asphalt over it Short term roads just got the siol cement to get by through one rainy season.

Ron

 

[John_Mc]

Noooooooooooooo. Concrete filled potholes will only create new potholes around their perimeter and make it impossible to grade. If you're in the mood to buy a new attachment, a box blade with rippers will help disturb the hard bottom of the pothole and give you "new" material to work with.

Ummm... that's exactly what he has been doing:

So I took my BB teeth to dig down and break the hard pan and get down to the bottom of the holes - as I normally do every spring.

And I agree with the others here. Your neighbors need to stop. He's not solving anything, he's just making your job more difficult.

They are trying to be helpful, however, which is a good thing. You may want to encourage that. Perhaps leave him a small pile of gravel which they can shovel onto potholes "to help smooth things over until I can get back out and regrade again". Not at all a permanent solution, but you leave them feeling as though they are contributing, and they are not making your job harder. Giving them a stake in keeping the road in good shape may also make them more protective of it: they may be inclined to have a chat with the truck driver who slams on the brakes, or the neighbor who peals out, digging stuff up.

 

[Egon]

Concrete works well for potholes, it just has to be applied properly. A full width continuous pad six inches deep will work well. You may note that many buss stops have concrete pads in place of asphalt.

Engineered soil cement used to be used in base layers all the time. Don’t know if it’s still popular. It could be spread with a grader but most was laid down and packed just like asphalt. It usually got a tack coat over it for sealing.

 

[flusher]

Putting concrete, or even dry cement in potholes, is a totally stupid idea.
You will have concrete rocks to deal with as they rip out when grading.

Exactly right. Who in their right mind would do something like that? Use crusher run gravel, some water, and pack it with a heavy roller.

 

[fried1765]

Concrete works well for potholes, it just has to be applied properly. A full width continuous pad six inches deep will work well. You may note that many buss stops have concrete pads in place of asphalt.

Engineered soil cement used to be used in base layers all the time. Don稚 know if it痴 still popular. It could be spread with a grader but most was laid down and packed just like asphalt. It usually got a tack coat over it for sealing.

The OP posted about potholes in his gravel road.
"Concrete works well for potholes"........"6 deep"?..... for filling potholes in a gravel road?
The grader blade sure won't like that.

 

[Egon]

Note: full width and extended distance.

 

[FTG-05]

Note: full width and extended distance.

Except that's not what they're doing. There are taking a couple bags of cement mix and dumping it the potholes - then covering them up with gravel.

Astute observers will note the mental disconnect of them being upset when I "dug" up their concrete pothole covers which I did doing normal gravel road maintenance.

 

[Red Horse]

Except that's not what they're doing. There are taking a couple bags of cement mix and dumping it the potholes - then covering them up with gravel.

Astute observers will note the mental disconnect of them being upset when I "dug" up their concrete pothole covers which I did doing normal gravel road maintenance.

Two add my two cents you are right on and to reinforce what others have pointed out, you can't just "fill" potholes. I have been taking care of a few common gravel drives in my 'hood, and over the years have brought in an occasional load of graded base or "process" (3/4" crushed bluestone mixed with dust-no voids!) as needed. I then rip up the bad areas with my heavy 72" box blade using the 7 ripper shanks set to lowest setting. Then retract shanks and grade with box. In my old age I finally added a hydraulic top link, so it makes the job a lot easier. I don't have a hydraulic side link so I have to jump off
to set the slope but that is also critical IMO.

"Gravel Road "101"...Get the water off as quick as you can". So I have always tried to maintain a crown and make sure I cut reliefs at edges so the water does not build up.

 

[fried1765]

Two add my two cents you are right on and to reinforce what others have pointed out, you can't just "fill" potholes. I have been taking care of a few common gravel drives in my 'hood, and over the years have brought in an occasional load of graded base or "process" (3/4" crushed bluestone mixed with dust-no voids!) as needed. I then rip up the bad areas with my heavy 72" box blade using the 7 ripper shanks set to lowest setting. Then retract shanks and grade with box. In my old age I finally added a hydraulic top link, so it makes the job a lot easier. I don't have a hydraulic side link so I have to jump off
to set the slope but that is also critical IMO.

"Gravel Road "101"...Get the water off as quick as you can". So I have always tried to maintain a crown and make sure I cut reliefs at edges so the water does not build up.

You do very obviously understand the proper methodology!