Ethanol free gas?

[3Ts]

Oh? What seed do I order to grow ethanol?

There is yellow corn, and white corn, both are used for human food. Its just that the prettiest corn is used to serve humans who will see the kernels. Less pretty is ground into corn meal for human and pet food, to make corn syrup and other human food products. The uglier stuff is used for cattle and ethanol. Depending on demand ethanol producers will buy the more expensive prettier corn. There is no doubt ethanol consumes corn that would have been used to feed poorer countries.

Dent corn

Did you know there were 6 different types of corn? | Think Bioenergy

 

[ruffdog]

Tax Money
View attachment 618379

Taxpayers have spent billions of dollars over the last 30 years subsidizing the production of corn ethanol. I would like to get mine back and have corn growers stand on their own two feet. Let the market decide if it is viable.

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Ethanol replaced MTBE's and look at the costs for environmental clean-ups for that. Anywhere from 1-30 Billion that we know of.

MTBE controversy - Wikipedia

 

[goeduck]

Ethanol replaced MTBE's and look at the costs for environmental clean-ups for that. Anywhere from 1-30 Billion that we know of.

MTBE controversy - Wikipedia

Good point. Does anyone know if MTBE is in ethanol free gas? I just want gasoline, and I do not want fries with it. No supersize, no free cookie, just gasoline please

 

[Grumpycat]

Ethanol replaced MTBE's and look at the costs for environmental clean-ups for that. Anywhere from 1-30 Billion that we know of.

MTBE controversy - Wikipedia

You presume MTBE was necessary in the first place.

When O2 sensors appeared in automobiles in 1980 the EPA got a wild-eyed idea that they could make existing engines run cleaner than when qualified for emission testing by oxygenating the fuel to make it run richer. The O2 sensor only detects the stoichiometric optimum mixture and can't be made to peak for any other point. They ran field tests in the early 1980's with first generation O2 sensor engines and "proved" their concept. And then "reformulated gasoline" became law. Initially only in high pollution regions, of course, then the world!

Shortly after it was well known how reformulated gasoline from some regions of the country got horrible MPG in vehicles which did much better elsewhere. Before ethanol was allowed without prominent notice on the gas pump. Back when it was called Gasohol.

The problem was by 1990 combustion engineers did what government bureaucrats thought impossible: they figured out how to get around the O2 sensor limitations. Digital computer control was relatively cheap and easy to create complex maps and recalculate on the fly. Previously the carburetor and ECU were slaves to what the O2 sensor said. But then they learned they could just use the O2 sensor now and then for a calibration point, and run whatever they wanted at other times. Suddenly V6's and V8's started getting 30 MPG on the highway cycle.

EPA was none too happy, this was an early scenario of what later happened with VW's diesel emissions cheating. Automakers were deliberately running leaner, and dirtier, under steady state conditions such as found on open highways. They made no apology. Unlike VW, emissions were under the regulations. Its just that the EPA couldn't tune the emissions by revising the fuel's oxygen content.

To this day government being government will not admit reformulated gasoline no longer works.

 

[John_Mc]

You presume MTBE was necessary in the first place.

When O2 sensors appeared in automobiles in 1980 the EPA got a wild-eyed idea that they could make existing engines run cleaner than when qualified for emission testing by oxygenating the fuel to make it run richer. The O2 sensor only detects the stoichiometric optimum mixture and can't be made to peak for any other point. They ran field tests in the early 1980's with first generation O2 sensor engines and "proved" their concept. And then "reformulated gasoline" became law. Initially only in high pollution regions, of course, then the world!

Shortly after it was well known how reformulated gasoline from some regions of the country got horrible MPG in vehicles which did much better elsewhere. Before ethanol was allowed without prominent notice on the gas pump. Back when it was called Gasohol.

The problem was by 1990 combustion engineers did what government bureaucrats thought impossible: they figured out how to get around the O2 sensor limitations. Digital computer control was relatively cheap and easy to create complex maps and recalculate on the fly. Previously the carburetor and ECU were slaves to what the O2 sensor said. But then they learned they could just use the O2 sensor now and then for a calibration point, and run whatever they wanted at other times. Suddenly V6's and V8's started getting 30 MPG on the highway cycle.

EPA was none too happy, this was an early scenario of what later happened with VW's diesel emissions cheating. Automakers were deliberately running leaner, and dirtier, under steady state conditions such as found on open highways. They made no apology. Unlike VW, emissions were under the regulations. Its just that the EPA couldn't tune the emissions by revising the fuel's oxygen content.

To this day government being government will not admit reformulated gasoline no longer works.

Are you sure you don't have that backwards? Oxygenating the fuel should make it run leaner, not richer. Also, leaner engines tend to run cleaner than engines run on the rich side

 

[Grumpycat]

Are you sure you don't have that backwards? Oxygenating the fuel should make it run leaner, not richer. Also, leaner engines tend to run cleaner than engines run on the rich side

Yes, as counter-intuitive as it sounds oxygenated gasoline runs richer because the ECU thinks there is too much air and not enough fuel.

And yes, really rich engines run dirtier but for what the EPA concentrates on just a bit richer than stoichiometric is cleaner. Leaner is more efficient but lower power and more emissions but still not more than the Federal standards permit.

 

[tjkubota93]

An o2 sensor senses o2.

If it sees more o2, the the system adds fuel to get to stoich.

If it sees less o2, it removes fuel.

It drives the mixture rich and lean to bounce the o2 sensor signal off the hi and lo switch points. This verifys the system is working and it feeds the cat converter more fuel and then more air to burn.

 

[NoTrespassing]

When comparing MPG you need about 5 tanks to get the old out and get a good average. And that means you need a logbook of what your car was doing before you changed fuel source so as to know what it was doing.

The MPG display on the dash is commonly called a Fool Computer because it lies and will make a fool of you. Is nice for a quick approximation but there is nothing like a logbook with miles divided by gallons. I can't explain these variations. Rode different roads but similar speeds and 90% of the time I buy gasoline from exactly the same pump and hose, 99% from the same station.

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I don't have a MPG display. I always hand calculate. I've checked my mileage every tank since new and have a pretty good handle on the mileage. The biggest variation that I can't control is how full I get the tank. Plus or minus 1/2 gallon can really throw off the calculation. I've actually thought about using a dipstick in the filler neck to get more precise but thought better of it.

Kevin

 

[Sawyer Rob]

I don't have a MPG display. I always hand calculate.
Kevin

I have that MPG display on my new pu… I checked it along side of hand calculating two times, one over 1,000 mile trip and another for a little longer.

It was off 1/10", not enough to worry about as far as I'm concerned, I trust the display now to be pretty darn accurate.

SR

 

[atsah]

The lyometers only work if you reset it before each trip otherwise they are useless..

 

[lilranch2001]

maybe too much inbreeding in small communities?..

or too much on an island.....

 

[lilranch2001]

^^^^
Rather than decrease our dependency on foreign oil, I believe that it's supposed to make the engines burn cleaner and reduce air pollution, like MTBE before. I pay attention to fuel economy for that reason as much as from an economic standpoint.
I'm a bit more green than many (most?) members here and understand all too well about that need. However, I also acknowledge that some of the "green leaders" have a different agenda than they claim.

I noted the decrease in mileage a while before I realized that I was running E-10. With my company truck I just swipe the card and pump the gas, so aside from knowing where the lowest prices are I really don't think much about it.

You may want to see a doc about that, the human skin tone should be from off white to dark brown/black

 

[John_Mc]

Yes, as counter-intuitive as it sounds oxygenated gasoline runs richer because the ECU thinks there is too much air and not enough fuel.

And yes, really rich engines run dirtier but for what the EPA concentrates on just a bit richer than stoichiometric is cleaner. Leaner is more efficient but lower power and more emissions but still not more than the Federal standards permit.

My main experience with this is with engines with manually adjustable carbs (such as chainsaws, other than the modern autotune models). For those engines, switching from E0 gas to E10 gas without adjusting the mixture makes them run leaner.

 

[goeduck]

I picked up this little 9.9 HP 2 stroke used that the owner said had not been run in about 5 years. I flooded it while trying to start it and then had one spark plug out checking for spark when the dang thing started on one cylinder. I have never had that happen before. The previous owner said he used ethanol free and ran it out of gas which I attribute to getting it started so easily 5 years later

 

[shooterdon]

I have had a bad experience storing E10 fuel in a 300 gallon tank.

I religiously added Stabil or Seafoam every time fuel was delivered. I emptied the tank every year before filling up for the winter. After 5 years, I have about 75 gallons of bad gas in the tank. Adding fuel treatment to the bad gas does not seem to be helping much.

Last week, I filled three 5 gal jugs with E-free (with Stabil added) to power my gas equipment. I have a 300 gal tank for sale.

 

[NoTrespassing]

Filled up the Accent with pure gasoline again yesterday and managed an all-time record for the car, 43.3 MPG. It's almost a wash on the price difference considering the mileage increase.

 

[Diggin It]

Skimming, I see some odd comments for a farm/ag based forum.

Personally, I feel corn squeezins are best for Granny's ceramic jugs. Some people swear by corn gas, say it's the best thing ever. Others swear at it saying it damages small engines.

 

[Sono]

Ethanol ruins rubber components, that's why all small engines (weed eaters, chainsaws and the such quit after a year ) the reason is, it makes the diaphragms hard and they wont pump fuel anymore making them hard to start or not start at all. I buy cheap or get free non running or hard to start tools like these then run to the local parts supplier to get a handful of diaphragms, repair them and sell as a hobby. I use ethanol free gas in mine, since you cant find it at most stations I buy the cans of premix at the hardware stores or mower dealers. I run regular pump gas in my 4 cycles with no issues using nitryl or pvc vinyl hoses for fuel lines.

 

[ruffdog]

Here is a interesting time line of alcohol being used as a fuel and a fuel blend going back to the 1800's.

Timeline of alcohol fuel - Wikipedia

 

[Sono]

I have had a bad experience storing E10 fuel in a 300 gallon tank.

I religiously added Stabil or Seafoam every time fuel was delivered. I emptied the tank every year before filling up for the winter. After 5 years, I have about 75 gallons of bad gas in the tank. Adding fuel treatment to the bad gas does not seem to be helping much.

Last week, I filled three 5 gal jugs with E-free (with Stabil added) to power my gas equipment. I have a 300 gal tank for sale.

I don't know how true this works, but I have added Acetone to bad gas before that I ran in old mowers, seems to work with no issue. Just remember old mowers had brass floats and metal parts... new mowers have plastic floats and may damage them. I didn't mix a lot, maybe a pint to 2 gallons of bad gas ( what I thought was good enough by eye ) instead of dumping old gas I tried to use it up mixing with acetone or new gas. For large amounts like you have it may not be possible to save and would probly have to find a recycler to take it/