Your thoughts on this framing job

[pmsmechanic]

I'd like to see how this story ends.

 

[MossRoad]

Even the "window" framing is all wrong. There should be king and jack studs and headers. I see none, at least not in a proper way. This honestly looks like somebody used up scrap lumber in a haphazard attempt to frame a wall, and ignored all standards and codes.

If you look at each vertical stack of windows, there are headers at the top of each stack. And there are king and jack studs on the sides of each vertical stack all the way up to those headers.

 

[MossRoad]

Headers marked...

 

[aczlan]

Headers marked...

View attachment 595747

But how many vertical members are there that go all the way from top to bottom? Or that go from the bottom section past the second or third window on the end wall?
As I see it, there is a upright next to the first set of windows on the end, then a short three to four foot upright past the second set of windows on the end, send a longer upright past the upper two or three sets of windows.
But they should have had longer boards going through there and stagger the joints so that at least one board went through each joint between levels.
That would seem to me to be more important then having a single uninterrupted board that goes all the way across the end of the building.
As it sits, there is one joint about eight or ten feet off the ground where the only thing holding it's together is the nails going down from the top and up from the bottom.
There is another joint about 3 feet above that at the top of the lowest set of square windows where again it does not appear that there is anything other than the nails going down from the top and up from the bottom that are holding the horizontal joint together from pushing out towards the end.

Aaron Z

 

[MossRoad]

That's one of the things about giant glassed walls with thin framing members.... where does all the weight transfer to?

That center ridge beam has to hold at least 1/2 the weight of the roof on the end posts, and the side walls have to hold 1/4 of the weight each. The window framing on the gabled end wall doesn't have to hold any of the roof weight. It's just filler.

Yes. It seems that the verticals are too broken up between levels. And they appear to just be held together with nails. I believe someone mentioned a giant hinge effect if the walls try to bow. I'd have used solid king studs up to the lower level of the roof, and jack or trimmer studs to hold the window framing and headers.

Also, in the 3rd picture


There's three studs forming a post for the center ridge. But the center ridge is only 2 boards wide. On a cathedral ceiling, as I mentioned above, I thought the center ridge beam was supposed to hold 1/2 the load of the roof. Two boards, to me, does not make a beam. 3 or more make a beam. I'd have used 3 boards for the center ridge beam.

 

[RoyKing]

Too many hinge points and with all ending at the same level, should have had some 16' running through. At least stagger the seams. It no lateral strength two guys with 16' 2x4 could have pushed that wall right down. POOR design. Even when finished that wall would have flexed with any amount of wind. Those pic condemn that contractor.

 

[MossRoad]

Looking at this picture, I'd be most concerned with this layer of vertical framing being broken up (circled in black). I don't understand why it was done like that.

I'd have liked to seen solid studs in the places I've indicated with blue, with trimmer studs supporting the window framing and headers.

Above that level on the gabled end wall, as mentioned, the window framing supplies little to no support to the roof, just the end rafters.



I'd have liked to seen a video of it in failure. Someone should send it to an engineering college for the students to model and put it in a wind tunnel.

 

[HillStreet]

The wall units are built in sections that intersect but they do not interlock. No shear resistance between the square sections, they are just stacked like boxes. Even a high wind would have passed right through if it were built correctly.

 

[Diggin It]

I'd have liked to seen solid studs in the places I've indicated with blue, with trimmer studs supporting the window framing and headers. .

I have absolutely NO training as a carpenter and haven't even read a book about it, but that's what I would have done. The center of the five you marked in the end wall should go floor to roof also. I'm guessing it's 14' or so which is easily available.

 

[JNA]

The vertical walls were built with a hinge in the middle, of course it failed. Continuous framing members are required from the floor to the roof. They built in a sill plate in the middle. Are building permits required where this was built?

Exactly although it could of had iron in it.

 

[s219]

If you look at each vertical stack of windows, there are headers at the top of each stack. And there are king and jack studs on the sides of each vertical stack all the way up to those headers.

That type of header would not pass code, it needs to be the width of the wall studs and not boxed in with horizontal 2x4. It creates a weak point when done the way they did it. Whoever decided to do it that way had no proper training, otherwise they would not have wasted the time and lumber on it.

Kings and jacks have to be done in a very specific arrangement to be effective, and that includes kings bridging multiple jacks if there are multiples.

 

[KennyG]

In looking at it more, it seems they intended to sheath the small triangular studded sections of the wall, which would have helped a lot with the bracing, but I'm not sure it's enough. I don't know how they were going to address the lack of collar ties given that it's built on a slab. Those side walls WILL push out. I've seen that happen and it's not pretty.

 

[s219]

Here are a couple pics of the way things are supposed to be done. First, here's an "all window" wall with proper framing and arrangement of kings, jacks, and headers:



If you know how to study the tributary loads you can see how it takes a distributed roof load on the top (one big wide header) then spills down to individual headers.

All headers are double 2x lumber. Walls like this have problems with wind loads and the combination of the continuous kings and doubled headers alleviates that.

And here's a combination of wall framing methods that illustrates my earlier points:



Notice how the walls on the sides are stacked multi story framing. The floor deck in the middle ties them together. But the wall with the triple window is an exterior wall not tied into the floor deck and it has continuous vertical studs that run from the first floor deck all the way up to the second floor ceiling. You will see that style of framing (akin to old-school balloon framing) in isolated places where a wall covers multiple stories without tying into the floor deck(s). Long continuous studs are key there.

Lots of little subtle details but they are all important.

 

[PILOON]

The wall units are built in sections that intersect but they do not interlock. No shear resistance between the square sections, they are just stacked like boxes. Even a high wind would have passed right through if it were built correctly.

Absolutely.
Might as well call it one big hinge!

Just imagine that wall full of windows that would catch a simple breeze, probably collapse in a 5 mph breeze!
(or 3 people sneezing at the same time)
Would be like a big sail to catch the wind.
AND, hopefully nobody inside at such a time.
Ouch, glass shards everywhere.
Speaking of glass, I'd also like shatter proof for such a large glass area.

The concrete seems to actually be a simple concrete patio slab like at best a walkway, even a planter area just outside the corner of the structure.
Bet that is 3-4 inches at best and 4 sure no footings, and if climate includes any frost that slab could heave and create further structural problems.

LOL, I think a tent would be a safer structure that that design, speaking of which if it is the owner's DIY design the builder would probably be off the hook.

 

[MossRoad]

If you look in the lower left corner of the very first picture, you can see a wooden ramp leading up to the doorway. That indicates that the concrete the framing is on is higher than the concrete outside of the framing, which probably means it's a poured slab of unkown thickness to us. It's definately not the same level as the concrete patio area with the planter and expansion joints and there's no way to know if there's a proper footer under the outside edges or not. So all the speculation about the concrete is just that; speculation.

 

[EddieWalker]

Looking at this picture, I'd be most concerned with this layer of vertical framing being broken up (circled in black). I don't understand why it was done like that.

I'd have liked to seen solid studs in the places I've indicated with blue, with trimmer studs supporting the window framing and headers.

Above that level on the gabled end wall, as mentioned, the window framing supplies little to no support to the roof, just the end rafters.

View attachment 595750

I'd have liked to seen a video of it in failure. Someone should send it to an engineering college for the students to model and put it in a wind tunnel.

This is what I saw as the biggest issue that jumped out at me. You can get away with this on a gable end for a roof because it's all tied together with sheathing and the roof itself. But this is such a weak point that it's like putting two balls on top of each other and waiting for the top one to roll off. McCoys sells 2x6's 28 feet long that are in stock. The might have longer, but I know for a fact that I can get them that long any day that I want them. There is no reason to not use full length studs for the walls.

 

[deezler]

Wow, that is some pathetically bad framing work. They simply must fire that contractor, ASAP. The lack of continuous vertical framing members, and multiple hinge points built into that end wall is crazy.

Also..... a full wall of windows pointing due south with no roof overhang? In texas? Thats idiotic in and of itself. The A/C load is going to be tremendous on a sunny day.

 

[EddieWalker]

I just got off the phone with the wife. This is their farm, they live in a other city. He has a new movie coming out in April and this project is kind of an idea he had that he asked his ranch hands to do. They hired out the foundation and feel it was done correctly because it was done by a pro. The ranch hands just winged it and they do not have a lot of experience. One of the worked for a contractor in Georgia when he was younger building tract homes. They now understand that they made a huge mistake in how they did this and they are now going to hire an engineer to design the room. They want to hire me to oversee it, but I declined. Its farther then I want to drive. They also agreed with me that they are blessed that it collapsed now and they get to start over and do it correctly this time.

 

[MossRoad]

I just got off the phone with the wife. This is their farm, they live in a other city. He has a new movie coming out in April and this project is kind of an idea he had that he asked his ranch hands to do. They hired out the foundation and feel it was done correctly because it was done by a pro. The ranch hands just winged it and they do not have a lot of experience. One of the worked for a contractor in Georgia when he was younger building tract homes. They now understand that they made a huge mistake in how they did this and they are now going to hire an engineer to design the room. They want to hire me to oversee it, but I declined. Its farther then I want to drive. They also agreed with me that they are blessed that it collapsed now and they get to start over and do it correctly this time.

Well, better ending for them than expected. :thumbsup:

 

[Rustyiron]

It may have turned into a burn pile, but that's the best "ranchhand" framing job I've ever seen.:laughing: They prolly build real nice fence & gate's though. I guessed that it was a framing crew that was following "approved" drawings.
I'd be surprised if they are insisting on all that glass, that an architect would not build it with steel, next time.