Can cavitation cause air buildup?

/ Can cavitation cause air buildup? #1  

OldNick

Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2014
Messages
47
Location
Perth WA
Tractor
Massey 135
My hydro system is either sucking air or cavitating. It shows common symptoms, but also shows signs of air buildup in the rams etc when I operate it.

Does cavitation cause air buildup in the system to the point where the rams show passive signs?

By that I mean the bucket of my loader will sag to crowd if I lower the arms so they push it with weight only, and HUGE pauses in operation under load. No hesitations and such, but seconds of pause, while the pump compresses, to show serious air in the rams.

Thanks
 
/ Can cavitation cause air buildup? #2  
Sounds like ram cavitation. When you dump the hydraulic inflow isn't fast enough to keep up with the outflow of the cylinders so therefore the resulting vacuum pulls the desolved air out of the hydraulic oil. that is the reason for the restrictor valves on the loader bucket to help prevent that lag. Running at full throttle can help reduce the effects but not entirely. My Kioti with the Bushhog loader is bad if I am not running at a higher rpm.
 
/ Can cavitation cause air buildup? #6  
The pump cavitation link you provided is for centrifugal pumps not positive displacement pumps as found on hydraulic systems.

Dave M7040

Ah, good catch. The principle is still similar with the low pressure situation regardless of pump type. The low pressure on the intake is still created.
 
/ Can cavitation cause air buildup?
  • Thread Starter
#7  
Thanks for the replies. I have read that thing about how to tell the difference. I do understand cavitation in
principle, but yeah not as it applies here and what the symptoms are.

Here is where it stands. As soon as I run the engine, the pump immediately makes a hissing sound as if air of some sort is running through it, from whatever source. That is at idle speed. If I use the rams, I get a whining noise, again even at idle. This was not happening before I had the tractor repaired. So AFAICS it's behaving like a leak, but sounding like cavitation.

OK. I added trannie oil, because I could hear what sounded almost like a sucking sound if I removed the filler and the oil was a _bit_ low. It did not help. Now the oil level is higher, I can see _lots_ of bubbles in the trannie oil if the engine is running, regardless of whether the rams are in use or not.


Regarding centrifugal cavitation, I could see that the extracted air bubbles _may_ remain, as there is not so much high pressure compared to a positive displacement pump.

I suppose if I used a remote reservoir of oil and fed oil into the pump from that, simply feeding the return line back into the bucket or whatever, then I can see if it's the pump, cavitation, or air.

I understood that cavitation causes the extracted air bubbles to collapse on the high pressure side: therefore it seems to me that I should not be seeing so many bubbles coming out, when the rams are not even in the circuit, but are being bypassed totally by the spools.

In that article it says that oil will not leak out of a hole that lets in air, because the pressure is lower in the inlet than atmospheric. Surely that only applies if the pump is running? With the engine stopped, I would have though that there would be _some_ sign of oil along the intake. I can get to all of it ans can neither see nor feel and signs of oil.

Thanks again. If the bucket trick does not work I will have to start cracking the gearbox and look at the inlet inside there.
 
/ Can cavitation cause air buildup? #8  
Nick, just curious, what were the repairs that caused the problem?
 
/ Can cavitation cause air buildup?
  • Thread Starter
#9  
Yeah should have said that, sorry. I bought the tractor and the clutch stuck so I could not change gears.

I had been sold a tractor with a bell housing fill of water!

It was broken in half by a mechanic and in that process they would have had to disconnect a rubber (?) joiner, maybe 3" long, from the pump to the inlet line and also that same pipe to the inline filter outlet, to break the tractor.

Obvious places to look and that's where I started. I tightened the clamps that are on the rubber joiner..no go. So I siliconed that hose and its joints and also the joints at the inlet and outlet of the inline filter. Nope. After seeing the idea of putting oil on the inlet line to maybe change things and ID the problem place, I have now done that and then greased the entire inlet line from pump to gearbox, even though it should not have been disturbed. Still no go.

The only join I have not tested/siliconed/greased is the actual inline filter where it seats. I will remove that filter and reseat it, I think, but without much hope.

I do not know about the in-transmission pre-filter, if it is cavitation, but all other filters are new.

Thing is I am talking a considerable amount of air in the system, with the rams out of the equation.

I should just knuckle down and start digging around properly. It's a bit hard, because I have not even had a tankful out of this tractor and it's already cost me $1700 in repairs and still does not function properly.
 
/ Can cavitation cause air buildup?
  • Thread Starter
#10  
My thinking is that it HAS to be the inlet circuit, if it's air or cavitation. The pressure line and return line simply get liquid from the pump and then dump it back into the gearbox. Both of them, even under no load, would be under some positive pressure anyway. True?
 
/ Can cavitation cause air buildup? #11  
Nick
What type or weight of oil are you using? Reason for asking is that you stated you added tranny oil to the transmission.
 
/ Can cavitation cause air buildup? #12  
Triple check all hoses. One in the wrong place.

If the FEL valve has power beyond and it is swapped with the inlet: grief.

In hydraulics, the problem is rarely as serious and complicated as you think it is!

Dave M7040
 
/ Can cavitation cause air buildup? #13  
Could you post some pictures of the pump and all the connection points for your lines? It would be interesting to see how the suction line attaches to the tank as well.
 
/ Can cavitation cause air buildup?
  • Thread Starter
#14  
My question stands. If it is cavitation, will I see a lot of bubbles coming to the top of the oil reservoir?
 
/ Can cavitation cause air buildup?
  • Thread Starter
#15  
Triple check all hoses. One in the wrong place.

If the FEL valve has power beyond and it is swapped with the inlet: grief.

In hydraulics, the problem is rarely as serious and complicated as you think it is!

Dave M7040

Thanks for the reply.

What do you mean by grief? I did run it with loader in and out reversed, at idle, for about 5 seconds before I realised I had reversed them: the rams just did not work. Do not know if there is power beyond. What is that?
 
/ Can cavitation cause air buildup?
  • Thread Starter
#16  
Nick
What type or weight of oil are you using? Reason for asking is that you stated you added tranny oil to the transmission.

Sorry no it's hydro oil. I only added maybe 2-3 litres to top up the fluid. I do not know thw weight of the oil that was installed pre-sale, but I used 30W hydro oil.
 
/ Can cavitation cause air buildup?
  • Thread Starter
#17  
OK. I checked out power beyond and I am pretty sure I do not have it. There is no sign of a third sensor line either at the spool or to the pump. The loader spool is no doubt a very cheap and basic thing. I am assuming this just does a centre by pass of the fluid.
 
/ Can cavitation cause air buildup?
  • Thread Starter
#18  
No luck on the photos. Trying to hold the phone steady while crouched under the tractor, camera at arm's length and holding a lamp in the other hand......
 
/ Can cavitation cause air buildup? #19  
Thanks for the reply.

What do you mean by grief? I did run it with loader in and out reversed, at idle, for about 5 seconds before I realised I had reversed them: the rams just did not work. Do not know if there is power beyond. What is that?

Grief in that you can break expensive pieces.

The tank port on a control valve, which includes a FEL, valve is rated for a much lower pressure than the inlet port as this valve spec sheet shows. The power beyond rating is the same as the in port pressure.
eCbaIJJ.jpg


By connecting your pump output to the tank port you could have fractured the valve body. I don't think this has happened but that is why just trying something on a hydraulic system to see if it will work can have a major and expensive failure in a second.

Re power beyond.

If you have 6 lines connected to your FEL valve you do NOT have power beyond.
With 7 lines you do.

If you reply you have 7 hydraulic lines, then we can get into a discussion about that feature.

Running the pump output line in your hand directly back into the fill port on the transmission or even into a clean bucket will let you see if the flow is strong and steady. If it is slow & aerated then you have a leak or restriction on the suction side of the pump. It is a simple test and will tell you a lot.

Dave M7040

.
 
/ Can cavitation cause air buildup? #20  
Cavitation is generally caused by a restricted intake causing the pump to try & pull a vacuum. The micro-bubbles from cavitation don't last long & cause the destructive putting when they collaspse. You wouldn't be seeing air in your oil from cavitation. A leaky intake pulling air into the fluid would cause lots of bubbles you could see.
 

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