Timber Frame Build - Round 2

[BitChin1]

Mainly just because I likes the look of the DF in our home so much. Plus it will give the ceiling some contrast to the timbers. It will be minimal load bearing. Same folks as we used for the house. I'm not sure John was real excited about raising inside an existing structure but I didn't have to beg too much. He did tell me if we hadn't already done a home with them he probably would have declined. Lol.

Yep I can't imagine John would be excited about raising inside an the crane will be of little assistance - but they build the bents inside and fit everything so can't be too different - maybe they should just cut the joints in your building and fit it together once!

I too like the DF look for the timbers - especially the large posts but have been using some white pine recently for some furniture and like that look - found a place in Ozark, MO that had good prices on rough cut (kiln dried) and t&g boards - agree the contrast is nice.

 

[jk96]

His initial response was that it couldn't be done and if it could the roof had to come off. After sending him my profile drawing and explaining we would do attic space so that we didn't have to go tight to the existing envelope it was a much easier sell. I think the plan is to stand the two lower 10' sections first then raise the center.

We had our first outdoor wedding in the new patio area yesterday. I still have stone columns, power, sound, and lighting to do but its usable now. I'll try to get a few more pics uploaded to get that portion up to speed.

Jeremy

 

[jk96]

Here are pics of the finished patio area. We have enough room for an 8' isle down the center and roughly 280-300 chairs. I'm uploading pics now from this Saturday. I finished installing the wedding pergola on Friday and had our first wedding in this area Saturday. The bride had planned to setup in the grass for her wedding. She had no idea we were building this area as it wasn't planned when they booked the venue last year so they were pretty pleased to be able to use it. I think we ended up with right at or just over 3,000 sq/ft of paver installation.

Patio10_01

Patio9_01

Patio8_01

 

[jk96]

This set of pics gets me caught up to where things stand at the moment. I'm hoping to start digging footings this week for stone columns and trenching for electrical. Looks like I may be making a trip to Oklahoma tomorrow to look at some stone veneer for the columns. My source I used on the home build dried up so now I'm in need of something that will tie in well with the patio.

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This pic gives a good idea of the scale of the patio. They had 120 chairs setup for Saturday's wedding. Right now we are using the current metal chairs we have for our reception hall. I've got new white folding chairs coming for the remodel.

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[Thall303]

Really first class planning and building!!

 

[EddieWalker]

VERY IMPRESSIVE!!!! I really like those pavers and how you created a walk way with them.

 

[jk96]

Really first class planning and building!!

VERY IMPRESSIVE!!!! I really like those pavers and how you created a walk way with them.

Thanks guys. I would like to build a two post timber structure for the start of the walkway where the bride would start down the isle. Not sure how to anchor it though. I'd like to do it in doug fir to match the pergola and ground rot wouldn't take long if I buried the posts. I'm thinking some type of steel sleeve for them to sit in that would mount to a concrete footing. I could then powder coat it black. Any thoughts?

 

[BitChin1]

Thanks guys. I would like to build a two post timber structure for the start of the walkway where the bride would start down the isle. Not sure how to anchor it though. I'd like to do it in doug fir to match the pergola and ground rot wouldn't take long if I buried the posts. I'm thinking some type of steel sleeve for them to sit in that would mount to a concrete footing. I could then powder coat it black. Any thoughts?

First off this area looks awesome! Do you have venue contact info? My niece does wedding pics/planning and was actually looking for a venue in the KC area recently - her comment was there was not many she could find - anyway you are well on your way to a "class A" venue!

As for your question above my initial thought was why not stick to a 4 post arbor?
Seems it would be much more stable and the foundation while still required is primarily to support it and not to also keep it standing against wind or other loading. If you stick with two post it will need to be similar to lamp post foundation with long bolts embedded in concrete with some sort of "sleeve" as you mentioned - assuming you are using 8" x 8" (or larger?) you may need to fabricate these yourself - be sure you allow for draining of any water.

 

[Barnbuilder]

I think Simpson makes a post standoff that is already powder coated. Might try a Google search.
I did a six post pergola last year and used 8x8 cedar. I used a galvanized mount with J bolts in concrete. Trimmed the base with a 2x8 to cover the steel. On vacation so don't have pictures.

 

[jk96]

We are in St Joseph MO about 45 min north of the KC airport. timbercreekeventcenter.com. We have some info up on fb as well. Timber Creek Event Center - Home | Facebook One nice thing about the remodel is the home on the upstairs of the building will be included for a bridal and overnigjt suite. It's 4 bedroom, 2 bath, 2100 sq/ft. Should make for a nice selling point.

As to the arbor the simple answer on why a 2 post is I want something basic and not overwhelming. Plus I already have three 8ﾗ10x10 doug fir posts from the home build that I could use if I did it myself.

 

[EddieWalker]

I never tried to do a two post arbor, but if I had to, I would probably try to drill a hole as far as possible into the post for at least a one inch pipe or rod. Two inches would be better if you get a lot of wind. Then sink the post at least 4 feet into the ground with 6 feet being even better.

 

[jk96]

I never tried to do a two post arbor, but if I had to, I would probably try to drill a hole as far as possible into the post for at least a one inch pipe or rod. Two inches would be better if you get a lot of wind. Then sink the post at least 4 feet into the ground with 6 feet being even better.

I was thinking about fabricating something like this out of steel that could be anchored into a concrete footing. My worry about burying the posts would be ground rot since I'm using doug fir and not pt.

Simpson Strong-Tie 12-Gauge Black Powder-Coated E-Z Base-FPBB44 - The Home Depot

 

[EddieWalker]

I didn't mean for you to bury the post. It needs to be above grade. I don't think an anchor like you posted the link to will do anything. It's too short to give the post stability. You are going to have to have something that's several feet tall, above grade at a minimum.

On my gazebo, I have 5 foot long lengths of channel iron set three feet into the ground, with a 12 inch hole filled with concrete and then a pad 6 inches thick to rest the post on. I ran two 3/4 galvanized threaded rods through the posts and then cut the rod after getting the nuts tight. This is not strong enough to hold the post from being pushed over, it's only designed to hold it in place.

 

[BitChin1]

I was thinking about fabricating something like this out of steel that could be anchored into a concrete footing. My worry about burying the posts would be ground rot since I'm using doug fir and not pt.

Simpson Strong-Tie 12-Gauge Black Powder-Coated E-Z Base-FPBB44 - The Home Depot

Jeremy my concern is the leverage from any side load the arbor would receive (wind? other?). This would anchor the post to the foundation but likely will act as a hinge unless the above/below grade steel is significant - setting light posts (very little wind load) we used 18" bolts tied to rebar in a 4' hole - then the pole is continuous aluminum. In your case the DF will sink/swell with humidity so the steel socket is all that will keep it vertical (your left over DF posts are dry, but mine are a year drier and still shrinking).
If you are confident that the location will not see significant loading (I don't know how to measure that) Connecticut Post and Beam make some AL joints (instead of true timber frame mortise/tenon) including post base - the plate fits into a slot in the post so it is not highly visible - might be an option for something similar to what Eddie was recommending to get a solid connection to the concrete foundation along with a significant connection up into the post to reduce the hinge leverage. Not sure if AL or steel is better in this application, but AL may weather better?

 

[jk96]

Jeremy my concern is the leverage from any side load the arbor would receive (wind? other?). This would anchor the post to the foundation but likely will act as a hinge unless the above/below grade steel is significant - setting light posts (very little wind load) we used 18" bolts tied to rebar in a 4' hole - then the pole is continuous aluminum. In your case the DF will sink/swell with humidity so the steel socket is all that will keep it vertical (your left over DF posts are dry, but mine are a year drier and still shrinking).
If you are confident that the location will not see significant loading (I don't know how to measure that) Connecticut Post and Beam make some AL joints (instead of true timber frame mortise/tenon) including post base - the plate fits into a slot in the post so it is not highly visible - might be an option for something similar to what Eddie was recommending to get a solid connection to the concrete foundation along with a significant connection up into the post to reduce the hinge leverage. Not sure if AL or steel is better in this application, but AL may weather better?

Going to have to give this one some thought. I was thinking 12" tall steel sleeve bolted to a decent size concrete footing, thinking 30" augur bit that I have at 3-1/2' deep. If the post set inside the sleeve 12" deep the only place I can see a failure would be in the sleeve itself or the concrete bolts. I would have to find out what specs for steel thickness and bolts needed would be. But some decent size J-bolts imbedded in concrete should do the trick. In the end it also has to look decent. That may be as hard as the figuring out the specs and load.

 

[EddieWalker]

How big are the posts? Can you get square tubing big enough to fit the post inside the metal tubing? I have five inch square tubing on my fence. It's expensive, it's special order, but it's solid.

Set the square tubing in the post hole and concrete that into place. Have it go three feet above grade and then slide your wood post into it. Paint the metal, or surround it in brick or rock.

 

[Luke'sScreenName]

Have you considered a knife plate? Wide saw kerf then through bolt it. Trim the base to hide the kerf, bolts, and stand-off plate.

 

[jk96]

How big are the posts? Can you get square tubing big enough to fit the post inside the metal tubing? I have five inch square tubing on my fence. It's expensive, it's special order, but it's solid.

Set the square tubing in the post hole and concrete that into place. Have it go three feet above grade and then slide your wood post into it. Paint the metal, or surround it in brick or rock.

Eddie that is my original plan. Posts are 8" x 10". I would fabricate an 8" x 10" sleeve for the post to drop into. The sleeve would be anchored to a concrete footing. Just need to figure out steel thickness needed to support the post under high wind. With this design I don't see how it could topple unless the bolts or sleeve were undersized. I've got a fabricator I use that could easily make these for me.

 

[BitChin1]

Going to have to give this one some thought. I was thinking 12" tall steel sleeve bolted to a decent size concrete footing, thinking 30" augur bit that I have at 3-1/2' deep. If the post set inside the sleeve 12" deep the only place I can see a failure would be in the sleeve itself or the concrete bolts. I would have to find out what specs for steel thickness and bolts needed would be. But some decent size J-bolts imbedded in concrete should do the trick. In the end it also has to look decent. That may be as hard as the figuring out the specs and load.

This is similar to how the light posts I have worked on - the key is getting all components solidly connected (Ground, footing, post) - for 10" x 10" post you gain some support just from the footprint. Checkout the t-rex connectors (you would need a custom one or build it similarly yourself) at ctpostandbeam - seems to me AL might weather better over time and this approach would hide the plate in the post - maybe an "x" plate s it has support in all directions - with your post this would be like 4 4x4's all tied together.
If you do the sleeve I think it would need some sort of trim/cover for long term appearance - steel eventually rusts - my railing is powder coated and in 4 years I am still getting some rust to show up already.

 

[jk96]

A little bit of progress today. I was able to get all of the electrical conduit behind the pergola in the ground and ran to the footing I dug for one of the stone column location where the service panel will be located. Marked out the locations for the remaining column footings that need dug. We also got some trees in the ground for some background landscaping. Plan to dig the other 5 footings for columns tomorrow. I can reach those with my tractor and auger so should make for easy digging I hope.

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