$11,000 Water Bill

[Billrog]

I have plenty of pics. from over the years of holes warn in pipe and fittings that started out as small leaks in all kinds of pipe here's an example of a large hole that started from a crack. Water has the same effect on brass fittings.

 

[boggen]

i am wondering if there is any sort of correctly installed supports on the ends of pipes or were ever there might be a 45 to 90 or tee fitting.

water hammer effect. more noticeable in old homes, you turn on sink. and then shut the sink off. and pipes rattle within the home. another example hooking up a garden hose outside with a nozzle. and turn the nozzle wide open, and then you quickly release the nozzle. and the garden hose "shakes and surges". if the garden hose is kinda scattered in a bundle not really coiled up. you may see the garden hose almost look alive, as you release the handle on the nozzle. this would be water hammering effect.

once that water begins moving, it just like a train, it needs time to stop moving, and the force of the water stopping needs to be addressed. if not every time you use water. and then shut a valve (sink, toilet, shower, etc...) the pipe will take a beating itself and can pull itself apart. due to the pipes and fittings need to with stand the force of the water stopping and coming to a stand still.

inside diameter of pipe, length of pipe, GPM (gallons per minute), type of material pipe is made of, and how it was installed and supported. can make a large difference. along with if there is any sort of "water hammer" resister and placement of them.

check valve fittings most likely between water line outside and just before or after the meter, perhaps at the home itself if meter is at the road. a water hammer resister pending on placement of the check valve placement can be good or bad. in dealing with water hammering effect.

==========
examples of a water hammer resister....

a fitting with a spring, much like a hydrualic cylinder for a tractor. when you shut a valve, the pressure builds up and pushes on the spring to help "slow down" the water vs causing the water to suddenly stop.

a pipe extending straight up vertically, that has air in it. as the pressure builds up the air compresses, much like a spring compresses.

a well tank. much like the pipe vertically above, but generally has a rubber bladder in it (balloon). it can be smaller than what it would take for a straight pipe with an end cap on it.

expansion tanks for say a boiler, or in floor heating with fluid. smaller than a well tank. also help with water hammering effect pending on how they are installed and made.

i forget the terms used, for dealing with piping that is buried outside of home. and correct support of fittings (45, 90,s etc..) that cause a change in direction of the pipe / hose.

 

[ruffdog]

I had water hammer effect with my system (650ft) when the well shut off. It was a jolt on the system with all that water moving towards the house then suddenly stopped. I installed a air tank in the piping near the well in the well pit. It just cushioned the sudden stop a bit and is now quiet.

 

[dmccarty]

Have you thought having your wife making contact with the local TV station? Generally every TV station has a consumer complaint department that the news department finds interesting and note worthy to make the news in the buyers defense.

With a 11k water bill due to the apparent neglect of the builder, and the head of the family being deployed in a combat zone in defense of our country, I can't help but think that some news organization would think this would be a story looking into....

Yep, this was my thought as well. Getting lawyered up is a PITA. Now, if the OP can get a lawyer for free, that is a different story. Just mentioning to the builder that one is about to go to the TV station to see if they are interested in the story might set a fire under the builders rear end. The TV station would love the story:

• Builder put in wrong pipe and installed incorrectly
• Home owner gets $11,000 water bill due to leaky pipe
• Father is deployed overseas.
• Mother is serving her country, taking care of a baby while her husband is deployed and she has to deal with this water issue that
• Builder not want to fix pipe and pay the water bill.

That is a news story that no builder would ever want aired.

Later,
Dan

 

[mmancuso13]

I am putting in another vote for black poly pipe! But make sure it is 1" thick wall well pipe not thin wall pipe.

 

[zmountaineer]

When we put in our well, it was about a 500 ft run up the hill and we have rocky clay. We ran it through 4" corrugated pipe to stop the rocks from working around rubbing it.

 

[rgr33]

I can't find the DWV marking on the pipe, but if that's the case , it's not meant to be used in a pressurized system. Add that to the fact that it wasn't installed by a licensed installer, never passed inspection, and is still under warranty, and I think you are in the clear here.
I would demand full replacement by a qualified plumber, using approved materials for potable water line to a dwelling. HDPE poly line is tough as ****, and can be welded, or clamped with stainless steel clamps if it is approved for use in your area. Less joints to possibly fail.
Seems like your contractor cut some corners, and now will be forced to go back and do it the right way , hopefully at his and the installers expense.

 

[Dustind]

Lightning.

 

[justinramani]

Hopefully I'll have more information next week. I'll keep this updated with the outcome. I appreciate everyone's advice and support. I know we will get through this.

 

[Oldoak]

I can't find the DWV marking on the pipe, but if that's the case , it's not meant to be used in a pressurized system. Add that to the fact that it wasn't installed by a licensed installer, never passed inspection, and is still under warranty, and I think you are in the clear here.
I would demand full replacement by a qualified plumber, using approved materials for potable water line to a dwelling. HDPE poly line is tough as ****, and can be welded, or clamped with stainless steel clamps if it is approved for use in your area. Less joints to possibly fail.
Seems like your contractor cut some corners, and now will be forced to go back and do it the right way , hopefully at his and the installers expense.

:thumbsup:

 

[JPRambo]

At 1.5 inch meter and 60 psi ca produce about 80 gpm flow. The installer may have dropped the assembled lengths of pipe on a rock causing a minor crack. And with repeated on/off cycles the crack became a hole and the sand around the pipe acted as a sand blaster and widened the hole.

 

[orezok]

Hey folks. The DWV notation on the pipe pictured just means that it can be used for both pressurized water systems and for DWV systems also. It is NOT mutually exclusive to water or DWV. Many locations use PVC for DWV pipe.

 

[hawkeye08]

I see the DWV marking, but also see the NSF which usually means ok for drinking water if I recall. We have black ABS for DWV here, but daughter in Maryland says all the DWV is white PVC there..

We had a leak at our first house, within a few feet of the meter in black poly. It was running a bunch of water and not any indication (buried 4+ feet deep, rocky soil that drained well). I heard water running at night when nothing was on. When I checked the meter with the main valve off at the house, the meter was spinning crazy fast. We turned the main valve off at the meter and it stopped then, so we knew for sure it was our side. Called the water company and asked for help. They promised someone would come right out, no one showed, 3 days later, I called a bit upset saying that I knew if was my responsibility but they keep promising someone would come out and help locate with their fancy equipment. Right after the 3rd day call, a manager came out in a suit. He took his jacket off, rolled up his sleeves, got a shovel out of the truck and said, let's find that leak. I asked about equipment and he said most times the leaks are close to the meter. We dug a deep by the meter and found the leak. Damaged section had a scuff mark running along the side, water guy said usually a sign of getting caught with backhoe, slight crease causes the inside to wear and over time develops a leak. They waived the water bill (it was 3600% increase over normal, but don't remember the $$).

Your leak looks like joint was not done properly (may be wrong glue, don't know). I am getting ready to make a device that uses 2" PVC and the video instructions stress doing it correctly or it will leak (even suggest marking depth it needs to be and especially making sure the sections are twisted at least 180 (half a rotation) as they are put together to avoid and air bubbles causing a straight line defect in glue joint that can leak over time). It would not surprise me if they did not twist the joint as they inserted and ended up with some defective joints. I suspect that perhaps the pressure was high when initially connected (stressing any weak joints) and then the pressure reducer was added. Perhaps after a couple initial leaks the pressure reducer was added.

If the whole situation does not go acceptably, then also consider notifying your federal representative.

Thanks for your families service.

 

[oldpilgrim]

Appears like you are fighting the people here who are trying to help you.

PVC DWV pipe is meant for just what is says: DRAIN-WAIST-VENT. It should have never been used for your water supply line, period.
50 joints, underground, is also ridiculous no matter what type of pipe is used. Just asking for trouble.

Toyboy describes what should be used. That's also what we used here in PA in rural areas from our well casings to dwellings. The only joints are at the connections on both ends and has the durability of a lifetime plus.

This.... Wrong pipe.... absolutely.

 

[Steppenwolfe]

I believe you said that the run is 1,300 feet. For a water line that far, gasketed pipe has to be used. There is so much movement in the ground that that it pulls and compresses the pipe over and over again. Eventually it fails. Your pictures showing the hole is a classic example of this type of failure. It only takes a hairline crack to give water the ability to leak. Then over time, that leak grows as the pipe erodes. I would have expected this to have taken several years to happen.

Since you have said that there where two other leaks, it's proof that the gluing up of the pipes was done wrong. I see the purple primer and clear solvent. Was Heavy Duty clear solvent used or Regular Solvent? How old was the solvent? I only use new Heavy Duty solvent for PVC water lines under pressure.

How do you know this is the only leak when they have already found two others? Is there a shut off valve just before the house? Can you turn it off and then look at the meter to make sure there the wheel isn't turning?

How old is the meter? The guy in charge of my water district told me that some water districts have older pumps that will surge the water. In older water meters, they will read this surge as water going through the meter as usage even though it's just surging back and forth.

Bottom line, the wrong pipe was used for your water line. Whoever made that decision is responsible for it failing. It has to be replaced with the proper pipe!!!!!!

Eddie has this nailed, 100% correct. As a GC myself, this was wrong pipe, wrong use, bad install. Hammer the builder and plumber.

 

[AchingBack]

The pic in this post show's the pipe is "DWV". I'm not a licensed plumber but as far as I know the "DWV" means Drain-Waste-Vent, only!

It's hard to see, but after NSF, notice PW(potable water). I seriously doubt there is a different schedule 40 for potable water vs. DWV.

 

[turnkey4099]

So two votes for poly pipe. Any other potential options?

Not really, the black plastic pipe is pretty much the standard all over the states for buried water lines.

 

[Complete Turf Care]

A quick google search for "DWV Pipe" and I found this.

What is DWV PVC? Is it Different From Schedule 40?

If you've been in the market for PVC pipe and fittings you may have come across something called DWV. DWV parts look very similar to standard white schedule 40 PVC pipe and fittings. The only real difference is that DWV PVC is not made to handle pressurized uses like schedule 40 parts are. Instead, DWV pipe and fittings are made to handle a different class of uses – Drain, Waste, and Vent (hence the name DWV). Drain, waste, and vent applications use gravity to create the flow of water and waste through the pipe line. These applications cause minimal stress on the PVC parts, allowing for thinner walls and the elimination of pressure testing by the manufacturer.

dwv-fittings-shop-now

The result is a less expensive product with a few specialized parts that are particularly useful for drain and vent uses. A few parts that are typically used for DWV applications are p-traps, drains, and cleanouts. Another difference between DWV and standard PVC parts is the end types. Standard schedule 40 PVC fittings have ends that are either threaded or socket (sometimes called slip). DWV parts sometimes come threaded, but their slip style fitting ends are called “hubs,” and are usually shallower than the deeper schedule 40 ends. For example a slip coupling may be called “HUB x HUB” or “H x H” for short.

DWV parts are made with the same threading (NPT) and are made to the same size as standard PVC fittings. Since this is the case, DWV and schedule 40 and 80 pipe and fittings will fit together, but it isn't recommended that they be used together. Note: DWV parts should never be used to carry pressurized liquids or gas.

 

[aczlan]

DWV parts are made with the same threading (NPT) and are made to the same size as standard PVC fittings. Since this is the case, DWV and schedule 40 and 80 pipe and fittings will fit together, but it isn't recommended that they be used together. Note: DWV parts should never be used to carry pressurized liquids or gas.

Please put down your pitchfork and look at the picture again, it does say DWV, but it also says 280PSI.
I suspect that it is schedule 40 or 80 pipe that is also DWV rated.

Aaron Z

 

[Gary Fowler]

Well I hate to disagree with all the brain trust here, BUT, according to the International Code for Water Distribution, PVC pipe for pressurized water distribution systems must be certified to 160 PSI (his pipe is rated at 280 PSI) and made per ASTM D 1785 which is what is written on his pipe. THEREFORE, the material is per CODE. The quality of installation is the only suspected cause of the leaking.
As far as the pipe have a built in bell on the end, this type of PVC can be supplied with a bell or without a bell and is of no consequence in selecting other than you wont have as many glued joints.
We don't see the ASTM certs of his fittings so they could be suspect but certainly not the pipe. I suspect that it is strictly workmanship issue which is still up to the contractor to fix. As for getting a totally new system, I guess that will be up to the court which I can see this issue going there due to the cost involved.

I rather suspect that the contractor did not use the proper glue or primer or both OR used old glue.

I recently had an issue when helping my brother in law fix some of his water lines that were leaking at a tee. I was using newly purchased glue from a local mom and pop hardware store but still bad. The glue joint just wouldn't hold. After the second time of cutting and refitting everything, I had him go to a different hardware store and get new glue and then everything held with no problems. Old glue just wont chemically bond the plastic even though it looks and smells the same.