3P Hitch Bail Spear Geometry Question

[bc1962]

Good morning folks,

I am new to the forum, so thank you for tolerating a first day post.

I plan to purchase a 3 point bail spear for my Kubota M7060. I like the Tarter Heavy Duty Super Spear with 2-stage quick-hitch Cat I and II pin hookups. Others build a similar spear, but this is available local, and beats shipping cost folded in by other manufacturers (King Cutter, Etc..)

On the Tatar website it shows a picture with the main spear mounted about halfway up the vertical tube (8" or so below the top link attachment point.) However, when I visited my local CO-OP, they had two different versions of the Heavy Duty Super Spear. Both had the same part number, same frame, same everything except - one has the main spear mounted higher (about an inch below the top link attachment point) than the one shown on the web (about 8" or so below the top link attachment point.)

Does anyone have any insight on why they would build two versions of the same spear, and why I would choose one over the other? I uploaded a picture of the bail spears which clearly shows the different mounting points. I am sorry it is sideways. I could not figure out how to rotate it back.

Thanks for any help,

-Bill

 

[ovrszd]

Welcome to TBN!!!!

I would want my main spear to stab the bale close to the center. I would want the lower two spears to stab the bale close to the bottom. Wouldn't I have a use for the different spear location dependent on what diameter of large round bales I handle?? Which would also affect how high my specific tractor could carry the bale?? Just brainstorming, really don't have a clue. Probably a simple production change with no real reason......

 

[Shaneard]

My guess is for different height feeders. The one that is higher will pick it up higher, if you stab it near center, not much but it makes a difference. As far as your tractor picking it up it doesn't matter which one you get.

 

[bc1962]

Thanks Gentlemen! I am leaning towards the higher mounted spear. It more resembles the other spears I have used in the past and the one my dad uses on his tractor. I could probably get away with their standard duty (1500lbs) spear with cost less since we only bail 5x4 (or 4x5 I can't remember). I just like the CATi/II slide pins that the heavy duty comes with. Keeps me from having to hunt for hitch adapters. LOL

Again, thank you for he quick replies!

- Bill

 

[ovrszd]

Thanks Gentlemen! I am leaning towards the higher mounted spear. It more resembles the other spears I have used in the past and the one my dad uses on his tractor. I could probably get away with their standard duty (1500lbs) spear with cost less since we only bail 5x4 (or 4x5 I can't remember). I just like the CATi/II slide pins that the heavy duty comes with. Keeps me from having to hunt for hitch adapters. LOL

Again, thank you for he quick replies!

- Bill

You are welcome Bill.

Take some pics and post when you get to use it!!!! We love pics!!!!

Here's my little Ford doing bale duty with an old two fork bale hauler.

 

[bc1962]

Thanks for the picture Richard. I got the bail spear. I'll post a picture soon from a real computer (my phone doesn't allow it on the mobile site). So far I'm a little disappointed. It lifts the bails very flat instead of tilting them as they raise up. It also has a hard time piercing out bails. If will try a few things with top link, but if I can't get it to perform at least as good as our 20 year old standard duty spears, it will go back. More to follow.
-Bill

 

[coldsteelva]

Honestly, it looks like a manufacturing issue. If you look at the spear mounting height, it looks to me like the one in front was welded with the vertical tube upside down making it lower than the two in the rear.

 

[mjw357]

Honestly, it looks like a manufacturing issue. If you look at the spear mounting height, it looks to me like the one in front was welded with the vertical tube upside down making it lower than the two in the rear.

That's exactly what I thought. The guy doing the assembly just put that part in the jig upside-down and welded it up.

 

[Shaneard]

A quick search online and you can see them just like the photos posted above, either high or low on the heavy duty models. Don't think it's a fluke.

 

[ovrszd]

As to the bale pitching forward when lifted. That's determined by the geometry of the lower 3pt arms in relationship to the top link. If the lower arms and the top link are functioning at the exact same angle the bale will lift vertically without any "pitch". For example, if the lower links are sitting perfectly level, the top link would be level also.

To get the bale to pitch forward you need to lower the top link pin at the tractor end if possible. This will cause the top link to shorten quicker than the lower links and pitch the bale forward. Higher at the outer end of the bale than at the tractor end when raised.

I use a hydraulic top link on the Ford. It's especially handy when carrying bales. Allows me to pitch the bale however I want.

 

[Xfaxman]

-------------------

We love pics!!!!

-----------------------

Here is my wife and her Toolcat, setting out a 5x6 bale for the horses:

And one on the little V417:

 

[powerscol]

Titan makes a good combo set up, including a GN ball up top. Ill bet their price is better. Titan 3 Pt Cat 1 Tractor Trailer Receiver Hitch, 49" Hay Spear & 2 Stabilizers 5% off now too. The receiver hitch is a great feature too.

As for the center spear height it could be for different size round bales.

Hope this helps.

 

[Shaneard]

I made a 3 pt. hitch a few years ago that has hooks for pulling fence post, dragging whatever, a hitch insert, a GN ball and a bale spear. I don't have pictures of the spears installed. The top one goes in the round pipe and has a pin just behind the tubing, the bottom one goes into the hitch where the ball is. Works great for numerous purposes!

 

[N2DFire]

I've been following this thread with much interest and would like to add a question (hopefully without a total thread hijack)

Dad and I bought a set of Titan pallet forks a while back that was also the combination hay spear.
Titan 36" Skid Steer Pallet Fork Attachment w/49" Bale Spear & 2 Stabilizers

Our intent was to use the actual spear & stabilizers to build a 3pt spear with. As of yet we haven't quite scrounged all the steel we want to fabricate this yet but looking at all these pictures and reading some of the comments here I am now curious.

I have the correct CONUS 2 Taper Bushing from Titan for the main spear and the stabilizer spears just use a simple round tube with a set screw so I figure I can replicate those easy enough, so ...

What negatives / drawbacks (other than the time it takes to unbolt the spears) would there be to simply welding the bushing & sleeves to the frame of our (Harbor Freight brand) Quick Hitch?

Link to QH for photo reference 3-Point Quick Hitch for Tractors - 27-3/16" Clearance

 

[ovrszd]

I see no problem if you can position the spears where you want them. And if you can find strong metal to weld the main spear bushing to? You are going to be asking the main spear to stand the weight of the bale.

Remember to not let the bushings extend rearward past the beam of the QH or they might get in the way sometimes when using the QH for it's intended purpose.

 

[Farmer495]

I think the "low spear" was built wrong. If they were supposed to be this way there would be a different model or option spec on it. Looks like it was built upside down, cheaper to sell it that scrap it.

The one with the spear "low" will not be able to lift the bale as high unless you spear it well below the center line.

 

[bc1962]

I decided to write the folks at Tarter to see if they had an explanation for the two different spears. Here was the reply:

" ... Hi William, thank you for contacting us and your interest in Tarter products.

We had a revision change sometime last year. We used to make them with the spear mounted lower but decided to move it higher for stability. So I would recommend the one with the spear mounted higher."

And that's that. Obviously my local farmers cooperative has one of last years product still on the yard. I will respond to Tarter and ask them to update web site.

I still owe you all some picture and if I get the lifting geometry correct. More to follow when I get back to the farm this weekend.
-Bill

 

[N2DFire]

I see no problem if you can position the spears where you want them. And if you can find strong metal to weld the main spear bushing to? You are going to be asking the main spear to stand the weight of the bale.

Remember to not let the bushings extend rearward past the beam of the QH or they might get in the way sometimes when using the QH for it's intended purpose.

In a perfect world I'd like to have holes cut in the beam and recess the bushing into it (like Titan did the one on the forks) and then add a piece of plate across the back for additional support. However we lack the tools to make those kind of cuts (torch or plasma) so most likely we will probably weld directly to the underside of the beam then add angle braces along both sides. I used to have a neighbor that did metalwork & fabrication (and has a shop with all the right "stuff") but he "retired" and catching him to do stuff is a challenge.

On the Specs from Titan, the spear is rated at 3K lbs and is designed to use w/o the forks so it bears that full load. The QH is only rated to lift 2K lbs and the CK 3PH is rated at just a tick below that in the 1900's lbs range so as long as our fabrication on the bushing holds I think the spear itself will be ok. I just need to make sure we don't twist the top beam.

My other big concern is the rear of the bushing and the spear nut having room to clear the top link on the QH when lifted, the farther it sticks out the lower it will need to be.

Thanks for the response, it has got me thinking about parts I hadn't before and has reassured me on others.

 

[ovrszd]

In a perfect world I'd like to have holes cut in the beam and recess the bushing into it (like Titan did the one on the forks) and then add a piece of plate across the back for additional support. However we lack the tools to make those kind of cuts (torch or plasma) so most likely we will probably weld directly to the underside of the beam then add angle braces along both sides. I used to have a neighbor that did metalwork & fabrication (and has a shop with all the right "stuff") but he "retired" and catching him to do stuff is a challenge.

On the Specs from Titan, the spear is rated at 3K lbs and is designed to use w/o the forks so it bears that full load. The QH is only rated to lift 2K lbs and the CK 3PH is rated at just a tick below that in the 1900's lbs range so as long as our fabrication on the bushing holds I think the spear itself will be ok. I just need to make sure we don't twist the top beam.

My other big concern is the rear of the bushing and the spear nut having room to clear the top link on the QH when lifted, the farther it sticks out the lower it will need to be.

Thanks for the response, it has got me thinking about parts I hadn't before and has reassured me on others.

You'll get it figured out. Your concerns cover all the issues I'd worry about. Especially the twisting of the main beam.

Definitely the concern is the QH's ability to stand the torsional twist of the main bushing. I'm sure the spear is strong enough.

Post pics if/when you get it done.

P.S. Not sure of the bushing diameter?? Would it be possible to use a hole saw to make holes in the main beam???

 

[Xfaxman]

In a perfect world I'd like to have holes cut in the beam and recess the bushing into it (like Titan did the one on the forks) and then add a piece of plate across the back for additional support. However we lack the tools to make those kind of cuts (torch or plasma) so most likely we will probably weld directly to the underside of the beam then add angle braces along both sides.------------

My other big concern is the rear of the bushing and the spear nut having room to clear the top link on the QH when lifted, the farther it sticks out the lower it will need to be.

Thanks for the response, it has got me thinking about parts I hadn't before and has reassured me on others.

I would use a hole saw, like Richard suggested but drill it off center enough to clear the top link.

And make a plate with the stabilizer spears, that would drop into the lower link slots.

What size and weight round bales will you be moving?