Alternative "sub-compact" tractor solutions
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Haoleguy
Platinum Member
For myself a Holder maybe in my future.......Holder Tractors: Homepage .
DavesTractor
Elite Member
Kubota has made compact tractors that are "reversers". None were sold in the USA, although a few snuck in here. Look up Kubota L1-R24. We had one once. Pretty interesting.
The issue with a brand new design is finding a market for it, even if it is "better mousetrap". Folks that buy small tractors often have wanted one for a while and have a "vision" of what they want. Half our tractors go out as tractor, loader, backhoe units - normally with a mower and a box scraper as well. Yet mini-excavator will work circles around a little CUT backhoe, a skid-steer is much better as a loader and a nice zero turn is often a better mower solution. But people want one rig, not several and they generally want a conventional tractor. In some ways, you are solving a problem that does not exist in the mind of most consumers. You would first have to get folks to buy into the "problem" of the current style of tractor....and for most folks, it's just not a problem.
Even so, I wish you luck.
The issue with a brand new design is finding a market for it, even if it is "better mousetrap". Folks that buy small tractors often have wanted one for a while and have a "vision" of what they want. Half our tractors go out as tractor, loader, backhoe units - normally with a mower and a box scraper as well. Yet mini-excavator will work circles around a little CUT backhoe, a skid-steer is much better as a loader and a nice zero turn is often a better mower solution. But people want one rig, not several and they generally want a conventional tractor. In some ways, you are solving a problem that does not exist in the mind of most consumers. You would first have to get folks to buy into the "problem" of the current style of tractor....and for most folks, it's just not a problem.
Even so, I wish you luck.
MossRoad
Super Moderator
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 66,387
- Location
- South Bend, Indiana (near)
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- Power Trac PT425 2001 Model Year
Good news is, I don't need my tractor to be fast
My current drive will allow for a 0-7mph working ground speed, and 0-12mph transit (no load) speed.
As for right now, I'm stuck with 37hp EFI gas power... but I'm thinking seriously about adapting a 3cyl 25hp diesel. Weight is an issue... so I'm shying away from diesel. I need more than 25hp, and that puts me in tier 4 category.... not exactly conducive to lightweight or a low CG.
Well, I'll tell you about my Power Trac experience... you don't have to read it, but I'll tell you anyway... :laughing:
I have a 2001 PT425. Its got a 25HP Kohler horizontal shaft gas engine. Meant to be run at 3600rpm. There's several variations over the years, but basically, there's a variable volume tram pump for moving the machine. There's an 8gpm @ 2500psi pump for the main hydraulic PTO (powers any implements like mowers, brush cutters, tillers, trenchers, etc...). Then there's a third pump that puts out I think about 4GPM@2500psi. That powers the steering, front end loader and what's called the AUX PTO. The AUX PTO is what operates the quick attach, and any implement with power direction control, like the left/right movement of a snowplow or broom.
There's 4 wheel motors hooked up in some sort of series parallel arrangement. This allows for turning the tractor without skidding the wheels. Its also basically all wheel drive all the time.
The variable volume pump provides power to the wheel motors. There's no "transmission" to speak of. So, there's only one speed range. There's no hi-lo for gearing. Its 8mph forward and 8mph backward. So its a compromise between speed and power.
So, to address the speed VS power issue:
I don't need power to the ground for the tasks I do. I don't pull stumps or pull a dirt plow, so traction isn't an issue. I don't "road" the machine, so I don't need high speed. At 8mph forward and reverse, its a heck of a good material mover. And its a heck of a good snow plowing machine. I usually travel around 4-5mph when mowing, so its good at that as well. Brush cutting, fork lift, loader, tiller, post-holing, etc... it just doesn't need low-end grunt.
And, my machine is only 1500# anyway. If I needed to do more, I could buy a bigger model, as they make several.
So, your 0-7 may be about the sweet spot for most tasks, but I'll guess you'll be lacking a bit of low end grunt if its hydrostatically driven. Be sure to test that part out thoroughly.
Good luck with your project. :thumbsup:
roadhunter
Elite Member
Don't get discouraged MM. There is an enormous amount of equipment made in this world and fortunately not all are tractors. There are lots of retired folks and hobby farmers who use little tractors and they work great but there are also lots of people who use other equipment, especially for mowing because tractors are not terribly good at mowing smaller areas or on slopes. Manufacturers like power trac, bobcat, and terramite all managed to make something that is similar to a tractor but has some advantages for certain applications.
All that being said it will likely take hundreds of thousands of dollars to even start to look at manufacturing a piece of equipment like that and build a prototype. My suggestion is to take your ideas and try to implement them on an existing piece of equipment first to see how well the concepts work as opposed to building something from scratch which will take an enormous amount of time, equipment, etc.. Even making a "kit" to modify an existing piece of equipment might be easier and more practical to sell. Something similar to the companies who make snow track kits for ATV's.
All that being said it will likely take hundreds of thousands of dollars to even start to look at manufacturing a piece of equipment like that and build a prototype. My suggestion is to take your ideas and try to implement them on an existing piece of equipment first to see how well the concepts work as opposed to building something from scratch which will take an enormous amount of time, equipment, etc.. Even making a "kit" to modify an existing piece of equipment might be easier and more practical to sell. Something similar to the companies who make snow track kits for ATV's.
My plans are currently for a twin Hydro-Gear 5400 setup. They're rated for 2200lb vehicle weight... though I'm trying to keep it around the 1,200 mark. They are-Well, I'll tell you about my Power Trac experience... you don't have to read it, but I'll tell you anyway... :laughing:
I have a 2001 PT425. Its got a 25HP Kohler horizontal shaft gas engine. Meant to be run at 3600rpm. There's several variations over the years, but basically, there's a variable volume tram pump for moving the machine. There's an 8gpm @ 2500psi pump for the main hydraulic PTO (powers any implements like mowers, brush cutters, tillers, trenchers, etc...). Then there's a third pump that puts out I think about 4GPM@2500psi. That powers the steering, front end loader and what's called the AUX PTO. The AUX PTO is what operates the quick attach, and any implement with power direction control, like the left/right movement of a snowplow or broom.
There's 4 wheel motors hooked up in some sort of series parallel arrangement. This allows for turning the tractor without skidding the wheels. Its also basically all wheel drive all the time.
The variable volume pump provides power to the wheel motors. There's no "transmission" to speak of. So, there's only one speed range. There's no hi-lo for gearing. Its 8mph forward and 8mph backward. So its a compromise between speed and power.
So, to address the speed VS power issue:
I don't need power to the ground for the tasks I do. I don't pull stumps or pull a dirt plow, so traction isn't an issue. I don't "road" the machine, so I don't need high speed. At 8mph forward and reverse, its a heck of a good material mover. And its a heck of a good snow plowing machine. I usually travel around 4-5mph when mowing, so its good at that as well. Brush cutting, fork lift, loader, tiller, post-holing, etc... it just doesn't need low-end grunt.
And, my machine is only 1500# anyway. If I needed to do more, I could buy a bigger model, as they make several.
So, your 0-7 may be about the sweet spot for most tasks, but I'll guess you'll be lacking a bit of low end grunt if its hydrostatically driven. Be sure to test that part out thoroughly.
Good luck with your project.
- fully (and easily) servicable
- integrated (no hydraulic hoses)
- fully independent (one housing for each side)
- belt driven
- fan cooled
- lower weight, maintenance, noise and cost than comparable pump/motor setups... and feature 2spd output without a higher parts count
My only major hurdles right now, are-
- settling on a control configuration (joystick, steering wheel, etc.)
- attachment configuration... I want it to be a native A-frame/self-aligning design, but will also have SSA/3pt/mechanical PTO capability for those who want to use their existing equipment
These factors alone, should save a significant amount of weight.
CADplans
Elite Member
I can't answer that at this particular juncture. I will post a different thread for machine specs, once the prototype has been constructed.
I can say this... sidehill slope capability should exceed 40 degrees with a flail mower attached.
Do you have any preferences/experiences to share, with regard to alternative design traction units?
CADplans
Elite Member
roadhunter
Elite Member
Very cool CAD.
MossRoad
Super Moderator
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 66,387
- Location
- South Bend, Indiana (near)
- Tractor
- Power Trac PT425 2001 Model Year
Regarding Hydro-Gear 5400...
How are you going to make it 4wd? Because if you're talking 40 degree slope, 2wd isn't going to work very well.
And if you make it 4wd with two Hydro-Gear 5400's, that means one in front and one in back. How will you sync them? As I understand ZTR, they are two wheel drive with one Hydro-Gear 5400 on each side. They're synced with your speed control joysticks/handlebars. How would you sync them with fore and aft mounting instead of port and starboard?
Also something to consider with a slope mower... some engines can't operate or lubricate properly at those angles, so be sure to investigate that.
Anyhow, I don't expect answers to these questions. I'm just throwing them out there for you to ponder.
Again, good luck with the project. :thumbsup:
How are you going to make it 4wd? Because if you're talking 40 degree slope, 2wd isn't going to work very well.
And if you make it 4wd with two Hydro-Gear 5400's, that means one in front and one in back. How will you sync them? As I understand ZTR, they are two wheel drive with one Hydro-Gear 5400 on each side. They're synced with your speed control joysticks/handlebars. How would you sync them with fore and aft mounting instead of port and starboard?
Also something to consider with a slope mower... some engines can't operate or lubricate properly at those angles, so be sure to investigate that.
Anyhow, I don't expect answers to these questions. I'm just throwing them out there for you to ponder.
Again, good luck with the project. :thumbsup:
postalnut25
Member
I would have loved to look at alternative solutions. For my needs, though, a BX Kubota filled the most at the cheapest price.
I really like the Power Trac design, but buying and storing dedicated implements is too much. A Skid Steer would be best for some projects, but that is a large cost for a dedicated item that I would need to store and sell once the project is done. When I'm done with my big projects, a rear sterr/front implement mower like the F-series Kubota or a Grasshopper would be great. However, they are very pricey.
So I got a machine that can slowly and affordably accomplish my required tasks, weather it is the right machine or not.
I really like the Power Trac design, but buying and storing dedicated implements is too much. A Skid Steer would be best for some projects, but that is a large cost for a dedicated item that I would need to store and sell once the project is done. When I'm done with my big projects, a rear sterr/front implement mower like the F-series Kubota or a Grasshopper would be great. However, they are very pricey.
So I got a machine that can slowly and affordably accomplish my required tasks, weather it is the right machine or not.
Just got off the phone with the closest Antonio Carrraro dealer...
Will update with prices as soon as he gets back to me with my quote.
Listed specs for the quote were:
-compact
-4wd
-reversible
-turf tires
-3 point
Also looking into SSA adapter, and will keep posted on that as well.
Will update with prices as soon as he gets back to me with my quote.
Listed specs for the quote were:
-compact
-4wd
-reversible
-turf tires
-3 point
Also looking into SSA adapter, and will keep posted on that as well.
Here's the quote for the Antonio Carraro:
$28,000 for the TTR-4400 HST II (2)...
For this, I get:
-38hp
-4wd
-equal size tires
-reversible operator's position
-2 speed final HST trans
-remote hydraulics (expandable up to 8-line control via the joystick)
-turf tires
By comparison, the alternative would be a Kubota L3901 4wd HST. I had this unit quoted in as near equally equipped configuration as possible. Please note, pricing for auxiliary hydraulics and joystick control were unavailable... but judging by typical sales, was estimated to run $2,500 more.
Comparitavely, this is what I would get for $19,000:
-3 speed final HST
- the other $9,000 to spend on projects/implements/attachments
This is what I DON'T get and CAN'T get:
-reversible operator's station
-equal size tires (not available in this class [39hp])
With a bad back and neck, I have ZERO desire to be looking over my shoulder ever time I work in other than wide open areas. Additionally, the added traction of the equal size tires allows me to convert to turf tread... eliminating the need for a commercial grade mower (another $10k). This also opens up more options in the way of contract work.
All said and done, the AC isn't nearly as expensive as it seems. The best way for me to look at it is this: the two way operation is basically getting two tractors for the price of one and a half.
I think I just might pull the trigger.
$28,000 for the TTR-4400 HST II (2)...
For this, I get:
-38hp
-4wd
-equal size tires
-reversible operator's position
-2 speed final HST trans
-remote hydraulics (expandable up to 8-line control via the joystick)
-turf tires
By comparison, the alternative would be a Kubota L3901 4wd HST. I had this unit quoted in as near equally equipped configuration as possible. Please note, pricing for auxiliary hydraulics and joystick control were unavailable... but judging by typical sales, was estimated to run $2,500 more.
Comparitavely, this is what I would get for $19,000:
-3 speed final HST
- the other $9,000 to spend on projects/implements/attachments
This is what I DON'T get and CAN'T get:
-reversible operator's station
-equal size tires (not available in this class [39hp])
With a bad back and neck, I have ZERO desire to be looking over my shoulder ever time I work in other than wide open areas. Additionally, the added traction of the equal size tires allows me to convert to turf tread... eliminating the need for a commercial grade mower (another $10k). This also opens up more options in the way of contract work.
All said and done, the AC isn't nearly as expensive as it seems. The best way for me to look at it is this: the two way operation is basically getting two tractors for the price of one and a half.
I think I just might pull the trigger.
Xfaxman
Super Star Member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2013
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- 13,295
- Location
- Guthrie, OK
- Tractor
- Toolcat 5610 G - Bobcat V417 - TORO+Loader
What about the cab on the AC? Did you price it?
That's why I went with the HST II (2)... so I could add the cab later (after I clearance all the arbors).
For those who don't want/need a cab, or aren't particular about the difference between an OEM and aftermarket cab... the standard TTR-4400 HST (not HST II [2]) is available for about $2,000 less.
I have always preferred OEM cabs. You pay more for them, but they're usually worth it. Not only is the fit/finish better... but the resale value is better. Also, OEM cabs are usually field tested in conjunction with R&D of the particular model they were designed for (except Kubota).
That's another thing I didn't care for when comparing the Kubota range. Because most of my work is front-facing, I also looked into an F-series... but given the cab interferes with the pedals on those, and you can't get the individual left/right brake pedal assembly with a cab on the F-series.... an absolute MUST HAVE for those units on hilly terrain with turf tires.
For those who don't want/need a cab, or aren't particular about the difference between an OEM and aftermarket cab... the standard TTR-4400 HST (not HST II [2]) is available for about $2,000 less.
I have always preferred OEM cabs. You pay more for them, but they're usually worth it. Not only is the fit/finish better... but the resale value is better. Also, OEM cabs are usually field tested in conjunction with R&D of the particular model they were designed for (except Kubota).
That's another thing I didn't care for when comparing the Kubota range. Because most of my work is front-facing, I also looked into an F-series... but given the cab interferes with the pedals on those, and you can't get the individual left/right brake pedal assembly with a cab on the F-series.... an absolute MUST HAVE for those units on hilly terrain with turf tires.
LD1
Epic Contributor
Not sure why I am posting here again....but....
Your tire logic is flawed. You will have worse tractor with the AC than with the L3901.
I can respect all the other reasons you say....bad back, turning around etc. But you are basically trading the large back tires of the L3901 in for a pair of smaller tires the same size as the fronts on the L3901.
Two big tires + two small tires is gonna offer better traction than 4 small tires.
woodlandfarms
Super Member
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2006
- Messages
- 6,149
- Location
- Los Angeles / SW Washington
- Tractor
- PowerTrac 1850, Kubota RTV x900
LD1, new to this conversation so if there is history, I do not know. Can you point ot any evidence on your tire statement? See, I understand the reason tractors tend to have smaller tires on the front is not because of any traction benefit (there would not be any in my estimation) but because of steering. Hard to turn big tires. But I am up for learning something new so if you can provide evidence I am all over it.
One other thing that throws me on your statement, the large (I mean huge) farm tractors are articulated in the center and all tires are the same size. If there was value in smaller front tires I am sure we would see it in this type of application where such heavy mass and drage are being pulled.
One other thing that throws me on your statement, the large (I mean huge) farm tractors are articulated in the center and all tires are the same size. If there was value in smaller front tires I am sure we would see it in this type of application where such heavy mass and drage are being pulled.
