Applying for jobs and scheduling interviews????

[TheMan419]

I've done some hiring.

A lot of people who have a job aren't really interested in a new job, they're looking for leverage to go to their current boss and demand a raise. Making an offer to someone like that is lose-lose. If they're good, their current boss will match your offer and you just wasted your time -- and possibly let some real candidates get away. If their current boss lets them go, there's probably a reason for that, and you just acquired someone else's problem.

So you learn to screen out people who you don't think are serious. As a job-seeker, it's important that you not come across that way.

Yes that is tough. On the other hand if you are only looking at those that are currently unemployed I wonder why. Why did the "leave" the last job and why has no one else hired them. What am I not seeing as the danger sign that everyone else saw.

It is tough thing hiring someone.

 

[MossRoad]

Why did the "leave" the last job and why has no one else hired them. What am I not seeing as the danger sign that everyone else saw.

Maybe the company closed? Or had a R.I.F. (Reduction In Force). Those suck.

 

[ultrarunner]

When we had a reduction in hours a number of the RN's started looking and we lost some key young nurses... it is always a gamble.

 

[MossRoad]

The first time we had a RIF, I found out when I was sitting in a hotel room on the 22nd floor in Honolulu waiting to come home from a nice family vacation. They sent the E-mail out at 4:00pm, which was about 10:00am in Honolulu. It said the angel of death (the VP of HR) was coming around, and if he grabbed you, he'd take you to H.R., where the Controller would tell you to leave, what your severance package was, etc... and then they'd escort you out of the building. And it said not to ask your boss if you were on the list, just wait and see if you get the axe! So, of course I contacted my boss right away, and asked if I should come back or would it be O.K. to find employment in Hawaii since I was already here, or should I just "accidentally" fall out of the 22nd floor window while "taking pictures" so my family could collect on my life insurance!!!

Anyhow, as the AOD (angel of death)was taking you up to HR, they'd have I.T. disable your computer account and security badge, so you couldn't email anyone goodbye or get back in the building. Then he'd march you out the front door to the parking lot, right past a flashing reader board that said "NOW HIRING"!!!!

The sociopathic company president who ordered the RIF took off for the day and she made the controller do it! So, after he escorted you out to your car, he'd let you drive around to the back, walk right back in, wander around the building, clean out your desk and say bye to your friends.

It was pretty heartless and cruel, to say the least. It happened 3 more times. Eventually, it happened to the sociopathic company president as well, so that was nice. :thumbsup:

 

[tcartwri]

The sociopathic company president who ordered the RIF took off for the day and she made the controller do it! So, after he escorted you out to your car, he'd let you drive around to the back, walk right back in, wander around the building, clean out your desk and say bye to your friends.

The president and owner of my first wife's employer, stood up in front of the Xmas party and bragged about his new corvette in a drunken slur. This only a few weeks after cutting about 30% of the company. They are a different breed.

 

[rox]

May I ask what attitude that is?

Simpling wanting to get some pretty important information related to the job prior to taking a day off, hiring a babysitter, and making the drive to show up for an interview....all to get the info than can be revealed in 5min on the phone. Info that was left out of the help wanted ad.

Why is it so wrong to want to know the work schedule, shift, retirement, benefits, pay, etc before wasting time on an interview?

A company is clearly interested in me based on my resume. Which has my education, experience, and work history. Same things I am gonna say in my interview. So an interview is merely a formality to get to know me personally and if I am a good fit for the company. But jumping to that step I feel is putting the cart before the horse, if the position is not a fit for me.

If they would simply put that info regarding shift, benefits, pay, etc on their ad....I could have already made that decision and then choose to apply or not. By not disclosing that info, I have to apply just to get those answers....which I am sorry, I need those answers before I re-arrange my schedule to be able to ask you in person. If you can't answer them over the phone, I'm I'm no lo get interested
[snip] I just don't know a more politically correct or polite way to put it.[snip]

I can help you with this LD1. What you need to learn are the buzz words and the buzz words you are lacking are these, "Work Life Balance" This is an HR term they all recognize. You would say, "Can you tell me a little bit about the company's philosophy on Work/Life Balance?" They are going to know what this means. This question means, are you going to erratically schedule me, require tons of overtime, swap my shifts around as it pleases you? ALL these issued are covered under the question of Work/Life Balance.

A Guy like you, what your resume should be is what is called a Functional Resume. I bet your resume is, dates, employer and what you did, right? This is not the best presentation of your skills. I have done 2 Functional resumes, one for my cousin and one for a friend and both of them we literally catapulted from their existing position. Most people hate writing resumes, I don't I am actually an excellent resume writer. For my cousin, the Functional Resume I wrote for him got him hired at Harley Davidson in the back garage where they develop new models and technologies. I can't remember what it is called but it is like the secret area of Harley Davidson, and he worked with a Davidson if I remember right. Our friend who I wrote a functional resume for is now making four TIMES his salary, my resume launched him.

Here is how a functional resume works and I am just going to make stuff up to explain it to you. You explain your skills and then underneath you show which employers these skills were employed in. So here we go, making sh*t up.

Tig welder, producing welds within 1,000 of an inch margin of error, give a good description if Tig welding, different materials you welded etc. etc. Mention any big projects you were on.
name of employer and dates (nothing else you will give the employer info later on with their full info)
Name of employer and dates
Name of employer dates

CNC Programmer - Designed, developed test plans which were deployed to assure CNC machines were within 1,000 of an inch tolerance. Name different CNC Machines manufactureres.
Name of employer and dates

At the TOP of your resume you have your contact info, then right below your contact info
You put a section: "Summary" here you write one paragraph of what you offer an employer, focus on skills, say things like 25 years experience blah blah blah. Mention but do not hog up the space with names of employer and dates.

After Summary you put in a section, Goals:
Here is where you tell the employer what you want. Seeing what you have written so far I fear you will put in info like "Will not work second shift." Don't write it that way, instead write, (remember these are your goals, what you want from them) "Seeking a position with a dynamic company that provides a good work/life balance, flexible between 1st or 3rd shift (1st preferred), with a steady work schedule that provides for occasional (not regular) overtime who provides competitive employee benefits."

After you have listed your skills and the companies you worked those skills at, then at the end of your resume you list the company information. Address etc.

 

[fidowanttobe]

Finally the other one that I see a bit of is someone applying for this job while being in school for a field completely unrelated to the one I am hiring for. Like I don't realize the minute you get your degree you are going on to that "better" job.

All in all OP, no offense, but if you called with that attitude your resume would end up in the circular file.

So your looking for that "perfect" person who never wants to better themselves, is content to work until they die as your "secretary", because how dare they ?? !!
How do you think people GET experience in your field?? Someone got them started.

 

[LD1]

Perhaps a functional resume would be better. But it would easily be 5 pages long if I listed all the skills and examples that are relevant to the field I'm in.
All forms of welding/fabricating, mill, lathe, blueprint drawing and reading, electrical schematics, ladder logic, rslogix 500/5000 PLC's, hydraulic and pneumatic drawings/system design/trouble shooting, plumbing, forklift mechanics, aerial lift certifications, rigging and crane operation, etc etc.

And besides, I don't think the resume is the issue. As I have said, I don't have an issue getting calls for jobs that I have applied to. The issue is the lack of information they are willing to provide me before wanting to waste time on an interview.

 

[rox]

Under the functional section, this is where you are listing your skills, you make a section called Industrial Design. Under Industrial design is where you put in blueprint reading, and try to be specific about the blue prints, I don't know enough about it to offer advice. But surely blueprints for a house are different than blueprints for a washing machine. Use the phrase, "Experienced in reading [certain types of] blueprints and whatever else there is in this section. I don't know what laddder logic is but I would think it would go in this Industrial design section. Industrial design is where you are showing you are smart with you brain, it is not the section where you write about work you do with your hands. If it is work with your hands, that belongs in the skills section. A very short sentence like Ladder Logic for blah blah, blah.

You have an Industrial design section, and I would start with that one, then underneath that you list your specific skills.
You want to clue off the potential employer your level of competency in each of your skill sets. You do this by using action words,
Skilled,
Basic competency in blah blah blah (this is for something you once did but for whatever reason you did not advance to highly skilled, so you would write Basic
Expert, do not be afraid to claim the expert level of a skill if you feel you have it. Highly Competent is another descriptor you can place before a skill. And plain old Competent. Don't over sell or under sell, use real true descriptors of you level of competency for each skill.

Your skill section, each of those individual skills must start with a description of your skill level and then you describe the skills, and if appropriate the name brands of the equipment. Always include maintenance and quality control testing of the machine if you did that. You do not say at this employer I used this machine, and at this other employer I used this other machine, no you just lay it out in about 4 sentences and then list the employer underneath.

You mentioned lift truck mechanics, well mechanics is a good skill to write about. Do you know more mechanics than just lift trucks?

What about Hydraulics? If you have worked in hydraulics that is another skill. If you really haven't had a job that had a lot of hydraulics in the job then you could put limited hydraulics under the Mechanics Skill.







Under your Goals Section, I changed it a bit, maybe this would get the message across better and not sound so inflexible.
"Seeking a position with a dynamic company that provides a good work/life balance, flexible between 1st or 3rd shift (1st preferred), with a steady work schedule that provides for occasional moderate overtime and competitive employee benefits."

After I wrote all of the above I decided to write it out. I have given you a good format. Please e-mail me at
info@MasDesBories.com and I can e-mail it to you.

 

[MossRoad]

The president and owner of my first wife's employer, stood up in front of the Xmas party and bragged about his new corvette in a drunken slur. This only a few weeks after cutting about 30% of the company. They are a different breed.

Yeah! A couple months after the RIF, she plans a Holiday Party. We were just out of money and had to let a couple dozen people go, but we have enough for a party for 300 people??? :confused2:

 

[MossRoad]

Go back and count the number of times you've mentioned "them" making "you" waste "your" time in this thread....

 

[rox]

Yeah! A couple months after the RIF, she plans a Holiday Party. We were just out of money and had to let a couple dozen people go, but we have enough for a party for 300 people??? :confused2:

I have to give my husband credit. When he was a chef working for private country clubs he never drove a fancy car, he said if he drove a fancy car they would think they were paying him to much. Then when he owned his restaurants, again he never drove a fancy car as he did not want his employees to think exactly as you describe above. He drove a Ford Explorer for years, his biggest fancy car was Mercury Mountaineer. It would be hard to negotiate salaries with your employees when you are driving a BMW, which trust me he could have at that time. We drive a Dacia now and are happy with it. Bought it new and no electric windows, no heated seat, but we have no need for it, we fly or take a train for big trips.

 

[drssg]

Yes. I'd say about 50% of the positions in my field, in this area, are hired by any one of a few dozen recruiting agencies. They are always the ones that want you to fill out one of "their" applications in person. Usually never offer to do it via e-mail/online.

This part matches my experience. I would say that the recruiter is not doing his job if he doesn't personally interview you beforehand. For all he knows, you could have a ******** carved into your forehead, and he'd look pretty stupid sending you to one of his customers. I have typically only worked with one recruiter at a time.

And they always seem to have very limited knowledge of the position they are actually hiring for. All they know is "yes" the offer benefits (but no details at all), and they know what the pay is starting out (usually significantly reduced), but no idea what pay will jump to once in the door and off probation.

This part does NOT match my experience. If everyone is doing it, then it could be an industry thing, but it sounds suspicious to me. That would tell me that the pay probably isn't very good, the company isn't very good, and their only hope of finding employees is to get people that are desperate enough that they don't care.

On a separate note, I suggest avoiding the line about not wasting time interviewing with a company. I know what you mean, and it makes perfect sense, but I think it has a negative connotation. Maybe something more like, "I would like to do as much due diligence as possible ahead of the interview to ensure I'm a good fit."

I have also always been told that it's bad etiquette to be the first to bring up salary. If the recruiter can't sift through that on your behalf, then I think you just have to accept wasting some time or offending some potential employers. Good luck!

 

[MossRoad]

I have to give my husband credit. When he was a chef working for private country clubs he never drove a fancy car, he said if he drove a fancy car they would think they were paying him to much. Then when he owned his restaurants, again he never drove a fancy car as he did not want his employees to think exactly as you describe above. He drove a Ford Explorer for years, his biggest fancy car was Mercury Mountaineer. It would be hard to negotiate salaries with your employees when you are driving a BMW, which trust me he could have at that time. We drive a Dacia now and are happy with it. Bought it new and no electric windows, no heated seat, but we have no need for it, we fly or take a train for big trips.

Hahahahaa, here we go again on the similarities in our lives... the good boss we had drove a 10 year old Ford and parked in the Employee lot and walked a block to work every day just like the rest of us. The witch that replaced him drove a BMW, made our transportation department (10 trucks and about 20 cars) move to the Employee lot and turned their lot into the "Executive Parking Lot" so she and her hired cronies could park across the street. And she reduced the number of handicap spots from 4 to 1!!! We had 4 old ladies with canes and she kicked them out! Ebeneezer had nothing on this piece of work. :laughing:

 

[aczlan]

On a separate note, I suggest avoiding the line about not wasting time interviewing with a company. I know what you mean, and it makes perfect sense, but I think it has a negative connotation. Maybe something more like, "I would like to do as much due diligence as possible ahead of the interview to ensure I'm a good fit."

I agree (although, I might try to work in something about taking up their time for a job that wont work with your schedule to make it clear that you are thinking of them as well).

Aaron Z

 

[LD1]

This part matches my experience. I would say that the recruiter is not doing his job if he doesn't personally interview you beforehand. For all he knows, you could have a ******** carved into your forehead, and he'd look pretty stupid sending you to one of his customers. I have typically only worked with one recruiter at a time.

I have no problem interviewing with a recruiter prior to being set to he company. But why would I even want to go that far if the job is not a fit for me/family? It would be a waste of everyones time, which is what I am trying to avoid. So when reading that job description from this recruiting agency, and they have a paragraph talking up the company they are hiring for......Then a list of qualifications/skills required......with no mention of pay, shift/schedule, benefits, retirement, etc.....then no I am not ready for an in-person interview yet. What I am ready for is a phone call one way or another to get the information I need to decide if the job is gonna be a good fit. IF it is, I have no issues. IF it isnt a good fit, I wont want to waste everyones time including my own.

On a separate note, I suggest avoiding the line about not wasting time interviewing with a company. I know what you mean, and it makes perfect sense, but I think it has a negative connotation. Maybe something more like, "I would like to do as much due diligence as possible ahead of the interview to ensure I'm a good fit."

Perhaps? Maybe it could be worded more in a more eliquate manner to get the same point across. And maybe I'll try try some of those suggesting wordings next time around. But my method has worked well for me for the past 10 years. Like I said, most of the calls I get from HR wanting to schedule and interview right away.....they are thankful that I am asking the questions and not wanting to waste their time if the job is not a fit. ITs just once in a blue moon (and the reason I started this thread), that I get a call and they take offence to me asking such simple, yet very important to me/family, questions. Its almost as if they have this attitude that they are trying to do ME a favor my offering me an interview, and that I should be grateful that they are even calling me.

I am not one to use fancy vocabulary to try to sound smart, or try to be politically correct. I like to have open and honest conversations. So when I get that phone call, I have questions that need answered before I agree to come in for an interview. And the honest reason for those questions is because it would be a big waste of everyones time if the job just aint gonna be a fit for me and my family. It dont bother me at all if the company/HR/person on the other end of the line dont like that. IF they cannot handle that simple honesty.....I dont want to work for them anyway.

I have also always been told that it's bad etiquette to be the first to bring up salary. If the recruiter can't sift through that on your behalf, then I think you just have to accept wasting some time or offending some potential employers. Good luck!

Salary, schedule, retirement, and benefits are the 4 key things that matter to me. And probably in that order too. Sure there are other, smaller things, that matter as well. Like working for a quality company, layoff history, how they treat people, location, etc. But those 4 I listed are key. Benefits are last on the list, cause honestly, if I had a job that offered none.....while more expensive, my wife could carry the insurance. Same for retirement. While a nice perk, and the higher the better......certainly not a deal breaker as one can personally invest on their own. But Salary and schedule.......Those two things are absolutes that I MUST know before I will commit to spending my time and my money on going to an interview.

Maybe things are different in different fields? But in the field of work that I do, its not uncommon to see pay ranges at different companies ranging from $15-$16/hr......to well over $30. Companies in the lower $20's or under $20....usually have pretty high turnover. And with what I currently make, and skills I have, I have no interest at all in working for one of these companies. (but how am I supposed to know without asking)?

I agree (although, I might try to work in something about taking up their time for a job that wont work with your schedule to make it clear that you are thinking of them as well).

Aaron Z

I think too many people are reading what I am posting here (regarding wasting my time) and am thinking that I am using that same wording and tone on the phone when I get one of these calls.

THat couldnt be further from the truth. I treat TBN the same as if I were hanging out in the shop with a couple of buddies drinking a cold one.

The FIRST think I say to them when they ask if I'd like to come in for an interview is "Do you mind if I ask you a few questions about the position first, as I really dont want to take up any more of your valuable time than necessary if the job is not gonna be a good fit for me"? ...........or something along those lines.

The vast majority of the time I get the response "Sure, what would you like to know"......and I proceed to ask about things like shift/schedule, required OT, 401k match, pension or not, etc etc. Save the pay question for last. Which the response is always the typical "depends on experience". Which I totally understand that. They dont know me or my talents, or weather I talk a bigger game (on my resume) than I bring to the table and cannot back it up.

SO my typical reply is something to the effect "I understand that. But can you give me a potential range in which you are looking to pay to fill this position, if you were to assume I am pretty experienced and can prove I can do everything I claim on my resume". Most times I get my answer. Other times I am still met with resistance. If still met with resistance, I usually ask "What is the highest paid person you have in this field, and what is your lowest" Usually always get an answer to that one.

Again, Things are professional and polite. And it must not offend them too bad, because after I have my answers, 99% of the time they ask if I am still interested in scheduling and interview.

 

[LD1]

Go back and count the number of times you've mentioned "them" making "you" waste "your" time in this thread....

What does that have to do with anything? See my reply above^^^

What I am saying on here I treat as hanging out with some buddies.

Some of you are treating this as if I am asking the HR person on the other end of the line "I dont want you to waste my time if you cannot tell me how much the job pays". ANd that could not be further from the truth.

 

[check]

Yes that is tough. On the other hand if you are only looking at those that are currently unemployed I wonder why. Why did the "leave" the last job and why has no one else hired them. What am I not seeing as the danger sign that everyone else saw. It is tough thing hiring someone.

It sure is! But, it can get a lot worse. We had to recruit 4 new people last year and it was a multi-month process whereby we had to rate hundreds of applications, most of which came electronically, and had sometimes 100's of pages in them. Then, after paring it down to a short list of 4 candidates for each of the four positions, we had to (usually) fly them in for interviews (6 or 8 or even 10 interviews per candidate), listen to them give a talk, take them out to dinner etc. etc. etc. How would you like to do THAT every time you had to hire somebody?

 

[drssg]

I have no problem interviewing with a recruiter prior to being set to he company. But why would I even want to go that far if the job is not a fit for me/family?

IME, I haven't interviewed with a recruiter for a specific job. The interview is the start of a relationship that might last for years. When he sees a job that matches my experience and meets my pay/benefits/location requirements, then he'll give me a call. So if you can find a GOOD recruiter that will represent you in this manner, it is a huge time saver. It's the difference between regularly going through all the posts on Indeed vs. receiving an occasional phone call for a job opportunity. The only result I ever received from Indeed was a new category spam in my inbox. "Work from home and make a billion dollars a month!" That sort of thing.

I think too many people are reading what I am posting here (regarding wasting my time) and am thinking that I am using that same wording and tone on the phone when I get one of these calls.

THat couldnt be further from the truth. I treat TBN the same as if I were hanging out in the shop with a couple of buddies drinking a cold one.

The FIRST think I say to them when they ask if I'd like to come in for an interview is "Do you mind if I ask you a few questions about the position first, as I really dont want to take up any more of your valuable time than necessary if the job is not gonna be a good fit for me"? ...........or something along those lines.

Fair enough. That's exactly what I thought.

 

[ultrarunner]

A lot of my friends work in Silicon Valley... they are very good at what they do and have moved around a lot with increases in compensation.

The 4 I'm thinking of have almost been exclusively recruited... no sending out resumes and "Applying" for positions.

The Head Hunters can be very good at what they do and the ones that deliver are highly sought after on a one to one basis.

Poaching, Recruiting is the natural order of things...

Several have left very good positions at the angst of their spouses... the reason they left is fo Stock Options/Ownership positions... do they always work... no, but when they do it is very lucrative...

SRI, Genentech, Apple, etc...

All have done very well in a highly competitive environment and the employment contract based on the strength of the company making the offer is everything.

Some have been paid hundreds of thousands in severance packages... as per contract.

The skill set varies... Technical Writer, Management, Coder... etc.