If I was a barn builder

[rustyshakelford]

I was going to let this thread die because I wasn't getting the feed back desired. Not that I can't handle the truth but because I can't seem to fathom to see what the posters are talking about.

When I was in high school my step dad was a prominent home builder. At the time I thought that would be a career I wanted to go into. During the school year and especially the summer, I would schedule subs, get take offs delivered and schedule drops, mitigate any issues that arose. Pretty much a building superintendent for a few months a year than work with trades on weekends. These were $500k+ homes. When the home was complete, a walk thru was conducted and punch list complied. I oversaw the completion. I would carry 3-4 homes at a time. My job title was asst superintendent. This was for over 2 years. Before I could drive I would sweep out the homes at all stages and get any hands on while the trades were working.

Does this make me qualified for being a custom home builder? Absolutely not. Should I be able to handle getting a dirt pad built? Yes, but because I have cleared hundreds of acres and built many pads. Should I be able to meet with a client and discuss what they want in a pole barn? I certainly hope so, but this is pretty much common sense. What about sending the specs to get a material take off? Yeah, I think I can handle that with the lumber yard and metal house. I've always been told I have a pretty good feel for good people. So far I haven't been burned. I have met an excellent pole barn installer that is hungry and wants to work for an organization that will compensate fairly, and give him the tools he needs to be successful (tractor driver post hole auger, telescopic lift etc) and operate safely and effiecntly. I have also made a contact for concrete that again is hungry and does excellent work for a fair price. These building aren't rocket science. They should be completed from breaking ground to punch list in two weeks or less. Ideally a week.

All these post saying I need to have 250-400k liquid on hand to cover costs obviously isn't listening to what my goals are. I would be happy to build 1 shop a week. 4 a month. A 30x30x10 can be installed in a day. Worst case 2 with concrete the next. Easily a week long project max. With a payment schedule in place that helps minimize risk, I don't see what's the worst I'm out.

Again, thanks for many of these replies even if there isn't a single one that has been supportive. I was mainly hoping for replies in lines of what a customer would like to see not necessarily a I won't respect you because you haven't swung a hammer for 2 years or your going to loose everything on this venture.

There's a lot of business that are started by the guy that works from the bottom up, gets tired of being the low guy on the pay scale. While he might be the best and most knowledge at the manual side of the business, when it comes to customer service and the administrator side of the business they flounder. We all have strengths and weaknesses. I have run successful businesses but my services were the product and I was the only employee. If this comes to fruition, I will surround myself with someone that will compliment my weaknesses and allow me to utilize my strengths.

Brett

The home builder mentioned earlier is extremely successful, award winning and past president of the local building assoc. never had any issues with the buyer as they felt they were getting special treatment with the bosses kid and issues were always handled quickly. As far as I know, I was never thought of as the spoiled kid with a handout. I've always worked and had rough hands and brown neck

 

[bdog]

Your last reply adds a lot to the equation. Your original post read like you were a fireman and hired a barn built, didn't like the way it was performed and thought you would start a barn building business. There was no explanation at all about your background and experiences. For all we knew you did not know anything about it or have experience in that area at all. Your past experience with your step dad and growing up around home building changes things. You likely do have good experience that would be beneficial in building barns, especially managing it and subbing out the work.

I certainly don't think you need 250k to get started my concerns were just about you entering a world you knew nothing about.

As to what customers want it it is what they always want - the best product for the cheapest price. Around here there are huge differences in metal building prices. There are people doing what you want to do I presume that manage the thing and sub everything out. They are expensive. Then there are small independent guys who do all the work themselves that are much cheaper. For example on my 25x50 I paid to have skinned a couple weeks ago I called three general contractor types that specialized in metal buildings and there prices were all very close. I found an independent guy who did the work himself and it was just a little more than half what the other bids were and they did an excellent job and did it quick. No middle man and no markup.

I am sure you will find some customers but a metal building isn't really the type of thing that requires a general contractor. An individual can easily hire the concrete done and then hire the erection crew and save a lot vs having someone oversee it all for a hefty profit.

 

[kneedeep]

My old dad always told me " If it were that easy, everbody would be doing it!"

JMHO

 

[rustyshakelford]

Your last reply adds a lot to the equation. Your original post read like you were a fireman and hired a barn built, didn't like the way it was performed and thought you would start a barn building business. There was no explanation at all about your background and experiences. For all we knew you did not know anything about it or have experience in that area at all. Your past experience with your step dad and growing up around home building changes things. You likely do have good experience that would be beneficial in building barns, especially managing it and subbing out the work.

I certainly don't think you need 250k to get started my concerns were just about you entering a world you knew nothing about.

As to what customers want it it is what they always want - the best product for the cheapest price. Around here there are huge differences in metal building prices. There are people doing what you want to do I presume that manage the thing and sub everything out. They are expensive. Then there are small independent guys who do all the work themselves that are much cheaper. For example on my 25x50 I paid to have skinned a couple weeks ago I called three general contractor types that specialized in metal buildings and there prices were all very close. I found an independent guy who did the work himself and it was just a little more than half what the other bids were and they did an excellent job and did it quick. No middle man and no markup.

I am sure you will find some customers but a metal building isn't really the type of thing that requires a general contractor. An individual can easily hire the concrete done and then hire the erection crew and save a lot vs having someone oversee it all for a hefty profit.

My experience is much like you mentioned on finding hired hands. My original plan was to build a 30x50 myself and sub out the metal to a local crew. I got with mueller and they sent me a list of their contractors. I called them and they were all in the 5-7k range to hang the metal. That was astronomical. It's often hard to find local barn builders or I would've done that myself. Anyone I called wanted a premium. Since I paid cash, I had the freedom of who to use. Like I mentioned, the local outfits all wanted 20k or more for what I built. That was way to high for what the building was. Now that I have the contractors that want work, I can find people that want barns. Since I have a personal investment from the customer stand point, I think I would be able to relate and give my experience. I wouldn't run down my competitors but would show the benefits of going with me. My original builder made it pretty clear that they didn't want to come out this way unless it was for several building due to it being 6.5 hrs from home. I would not have much competition in my price point.

Brett

 

[blueriver]

You the expert ... why ask just do it.

 

[rustyshakelford]

You the expert ... why ask just do it.

If you would've read even the first post you'd see I was asking for input on what a customer would want. Maybe aprons at every door included or color options for doors. I know what I would want since as you said, I'm the expert but I was hoping for some input from the masses.

Brett

 

[Steppenwolfe]

If you can work a year, pay material and labor out of pocket without collecting large deposits and draws on incomplete jobs (your money is after expenses) and put ALL of your profits back into the business, survive off what the wife makes, run your jobs from the Fire Department without a trusted employee (eyes on site), pay taxes on those profits (can't use anything as a tax deduction unless making a profit) and do this for several years- You might make it work.



Been Contracting for 25 years, seen many a good man lose everything trying to contract full time part time with no skin in the game.

:drink:

 

[Steppenwolfe]

My experience is much like you mentioned on finding hired hands. My original plan was to build a 30x50 myself and sub out the metal to a local crew. I got with mueller and they sent me a list of their contractors. I called them and they were all in the 5-7k range to hang the metal. That was astronomical. It's often hard to find local barn builders or I would've done that myself. Anyone I called wanted a premium. Since I paid cash, I had the freedom of who to use. Like I mentioned, the local outfits all wanted 20k or more for what I built. That was way to high for what the building was. Now that I have the contractors that want work, I can find people that want barns. Since I have a personal investment from the customer stand point, I think I would be able to relate and give my experience. I wouldn't run down my competitors but would show the benefits of going with me. My original builder made it pretty clear that they didn't want to come out this way unless it was for several building due to it being 6.5 hrs from home. I would not have much competition in my price point.

Brett

Go for it. With your attitude you might just make it. We all had to step out there sometime. Better to be in the Arena, than watching from the sidelines...

 

[waycoolmarine]

if you think its so easy to do , then why did you hire somebody to build yours ? as for suggests all buildings and customers are different. from cheap as can be to make it nice.

 

[bdog]

On my 25x50 I did the concrete and Welded up all the I-beam and purlin. The contractor I hired supplied all the tin, trim, screws and labor to skin it and did it for $3,950 including materials.

 

[AxleHub]

I'm confused by this thrwad Brett. In your original post you indicated everything went wrong with your building you had done. But:

1. You really liked the crew that did the cincrete and really liked the crew that did the framing/metal.

2. You liked their work so well that you'd have them doing your building for you.

So then if 1. And 2. Are true . . How could everything about the project be bad?

Here are some other questions:

A. Instead of being the general and hiring these groups . . . why not be in partnetship with them for jobs you find and sell ? That way you have their coopetayion as well as their labor ?

B. Most firemen I know are "on" for a set period of time and then "off" for a period of time. So what do you do if you need to be on the job site (building inspector or problem with concrete or ???) during the period you are unavailable for a couple days ?

C. You've posted that you've "found" these two crews you can work with. But lets be honest . . Your contractor provided them and now you want to steal them away. It may not sound pleasant . . but isn't it true ? You didn't spend time and effort and energy for "finding" anything. My point is . . . You are talking like an employee and not like an employer imo. You gave your cobtractor no credit for his efforts and skills . . Yet he found and had the people you want. ?????

D. I've spent decades working with and helping small and startup businesses. Those who do well ate those who have very realistic time expectations. Those who do poorly are those who think it will be easy to succeed. Here's an example: your scheduling of building times expectations. Weathet makes that schedule unlikely because time schedules get delayed into another person's schedule. So one eeek you can't build and the next week your suppisef to now do 2 jobs (last weeks andbthis weeks) except now you'll be gone being a fireman. Or a guy on the roofing crew gets a dui and another guy on the crew has to bail him out and then "ferry him around".

 

[AxleHub]

Brett . . I'm sure if you're interested in being in the barn building business you've been studying hours each night about it . . Weeks and weeks of studying what and who has succeeded and why . . And who has failed . . And why.

I'm sure you've studied the king of barn building's beginnings . . I guy named John. But othets reading haven't been studying nights for weeks like you . . So I'll summarize the story.

a. He was a freshman in college and got a job in summer helping build garages for a guy.
b. Went back to college and got a couple friends to work with him to build a garage on the weekends and then another.
c. But he had extra materials from these couple jobs and had no way to store materials so he sold them on Saturday morning and kept going. Excess materials sold fadt because lumberyards weren't open on Saturdays.
d. Summer came and he started building small pole barns and kept personally doing the Saturday morning material sales plus finding barn prospects.
E. By the time he graduated . . He had a succeeding barn building business that he kept expanding plus expanding his Saturday effort as msterials kept growing too.

Brett as you know from your study about starting your business . . His name was/is John Menard and boy has his hard work and tireless effort and reinvestment worked well. Last year as you know Brett, Forbes listed him in their top 100 for asset value at just over 9 billion dollars with his 200+ stores plus manufacturing plants for plumbing and insulation and doors and windows etc...

 

[bspeedy]

I think most of us weren't trying to insult. I wasn't. Your information about some experience came later.

Like some of the other guys on here, I have a bit of experience in life that has left me with some scars, both mental and physical. When I look at your first post, I see the what if's and ask questions:

1. What if your construction crew stops being your construction crew - they get other jobs, they partner with someone else, aforementioned dui's, etc.
2. Same with concrete crew
3. How do you fulfill your contracts if that happens?
4. Scheduling issues with your other job - as already mentioned.
5. What if the first guy you build for doesn't pay. Not a penny. Do you have the financial resources available to be able to keep things rolling? Can't imagine trying to start this thing without a minimum of 50K in cash.
6. Undertaking a business such as this requires a team - attorney, accountant, etc. So much more to know than how to build / manage a crew. Do you have specialists that you trust?

The other side of this argument is - GO FOR IT. Guarantee there are guys dumber than me and you that are making money running a business. The advice my Great-Grandfather gave my Grandfather when he started his business was 'Good luck - you know most guys go broke 2 or three times when starting a business'. Big help, huh? FWIW - my brother is running that business as the 3rd generation owner and is very successful at it.

 

[rustyshakelford]

I'm confused by this thrwad Brett. In your original post you indicated everything went wrong with your building you had done. But:

1. You really liked the crew that did the cincrete and really liked the crew that did the framing/metal.

yes. The crew that did the actual work was great. The issues were with the company the schedules and sells the jobs. Lies, lies and more blatant lies. They didn't follow thru when they said they were and there was zero communication for approx 3 weeks after signing the contract. The contract was terminated when the crew showed up to do the concrete at 1045pm the night before the pour and didn't bring the equipment to do a final grade as per the agreement and wanted to charge me $150 per he to do it.

2. You liked their work so well that you'd have them doing your building for you.

So then if 1. And 2. Are true . . How could everything about the project be bad?

Selling company was horrible. Lots of issues I have now learned about from other customers. I am not alone

Here are some other questions:

A. Instead of being the general and hiring these groups . . . why not be in partnetship with them for jobs you find and sell ? That way you have their coopetayion as well as their labor ?

B. Most firemen I know are "on" for a set period of time and then "off" for a period of time. So what do you do if you need to be on the job site (building inspector or problem with concrete or ???) during the period you are unavailable for a couple days ?

no permits in this area and I'll pay the crews for a good job. Concrete is one that can be scheduled around my shift. I work 10 days a month.

C. You've posted that you've "found" these two crews you can work with. But lets be honest . . Your contractor provided them and now you want to steal them away. It may not sound pleasant . . but isn't it true ? You didn't spend time and effort and energy for "finding" anything. My point is . . . You are talking like an employee and not like an employer imo. You gave your cobtractor no credit for his efforts and skills . . Yet he found and had the people you want. ?????

The concrete guy is local and I found him by contacting the local concrete plant. The building installer quit after my building due to the lies and hostile working conditions. I witness everything first hand and can vouch for his effort to resolve everything. When he's called at 11p and called a liar and thief when I'm telling them he is great and no issues, he had enough.
D. I've spent decades working with and helping small and startup businesses. Those who do well ate those who have very realistic time expectations. Those who do poorly are those who think it will be easy to succeed. Here's an example: your scheduling of building times expectations. Weathet makes that schedule unlikely because time schedules get delayed into another person's schedule. So one eeek you can't build and the next week your suppisef to now do 2 jobs (last weeks andbthis weeks) except now you'll be gone being a fireman. Or a guy on the roofing crew gets a dui and another guy on the crew has to bail him out and then "ferry him around".

Brett . . I'm sure if you're interested in being in the barn building business you've been studying hours each night about it . . Weeks and weeks of studying what and who has succeeded and why . . And who has failed . . And why.

Honesty and integrity is what I'm about. I contatantly hear horror stories about contractors and witnessed it first hand. There's an ethical way to conduct business.

I'm sure you've studied the king of barn building's beginnings . . I guy named John. But othets reading haven't been studying nights for weeks like you . . So I'll summarize the story.

a. He was a freshman in college and got a job in summer helping build garages for a guy.
b. Went back to college and got a couple friends to work with him to build a garage on the weekends and then another.
c. But he had extra materials from these couple jobs and had no way to store materials so he sold them on Saturday morning and kept going. Excess materials sold fadt because lumberyards weren't open on Saturdays.
d. Summer came and he started building small pole barns and kept personally doing the Saturday morning material sales plus finding barn prospects.
E. By the time he graduated . . He had a succeeding barn building business that he kept expanding plus expanding his Saturday effort as msterials kept growing too.

Brett as you know from your study about starting your business . . His name was/is John Menard and boy has his hard work and tireless effort and reinvestment worked well. Last year as you know Brett, Forbes listed him in their top 100 for asset value at just over 9 billion dollars with his 200+ stores plus manufacturing plants for plumbing and insulation and doors and windows etc...

Great read. Had no idea of the beginnings. I'd love to tell you more about my experience in pm or phone if your interested. This is a G rated and it goes to R real quick by them.

I think most of us weren't trying to insult. I wasn't. Your information about some experience came later.

Like some of the other guys on here, I have a bit of experience in life that has left me with some scars, both mental and physical. When I look at your first post, I see the what if's and ask questions:

1. What if your construction crew stops being your construction crew - they get other jobs, they partner with someone else, aforementioned dui's, etc.
2. Same with concrete crew
3. How do you fulfill your contracts if that happens?
4. Scheduling issues with your other job - as already mentioned.
5. What if the first guy you build for doesn't pay. Not a penny. Do you have the financial resources available to be able to keep things rolling? Can't imagine trying to start this thing without a minimum of 50K in cash.

great points. I'll ponder on these. The payment schedule would be 10% at signing the contract, 50% upon material drop, 20% at completing of framing/metal, and final 20% upon finishing of concrete.

6. Undertaking a business such as this requires a team - attorney, accountant, etc. So much more to know than how to build / manage a crew. Do you have specialists that you trust?

Yes. I work with guys who wives are attorneys and will help with the legal stuff.

The other side of this argument is - GO FOR IT. Guarantee there are guys dumber than me and you that are making money running a business. The advice my Great-Grandfather gave my Grandfather when he started his business was 'Good luck - you know most guys go broke 2 or three times when starting a business'. Big help, huh? FWIW - my brother is running that business as the 3rd generation owner and is very successful at it.

Like it was said, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Sometimes it's worth to swing for the fence and let hard work and determination pay off. I'm not trying to get rich or support my family. My full time job is for that, but if I could help guys build their dream shop and have a positive experience while getting a little walking around money and giving a living wage to the crew than I'll be happy. Rome wasn't built in a day

Brett

 

[AGRIMAN]

Sorry, I can't help with the rules in TX, but after read some of these post I decided to add some of my thoughts. Experience is a good thing, but it's not a must. If it was, I would have never been able to do many of the things I done. To me, it's more about having common sense, tremendous drive, integrity, business smarts, hard work and the ability to get the job done no matter what happens or what it takes.

If you are in business today, you need to be in constant learning mode and always looking for ways to improve yourself or the competition will pass you by. You also need the ability to recognize a good opportunity when you see it. Many times you will not have any experience, so you got to have enough self confidence in your ability to know that you can learn how.

My son and I recognized such an opportunity and started a new business that we had absolutely no experience with. We also have plenty of competition ranging from the highly experienced to the dirt cheap. On top of that, we entered the construction/contracting field for the very first time and knew no one.

It has not been easy but we did not expect that it would be. Being the new guy's, things started off sort of slow but we let our work and ability do the talking. Now, a little over a 1 1/2 years later, it's amazing how much it has grown. Today we have as much work as we can handle and stay booked two the three out. We have been able to grow the business based off the things I mentioned above and not because we are the cheapest, which we are not.

You sound like a person who already has a good handle on what you want and what it's going to take to get it. Don't let any one tell you that you can't do something because you don't have experience. You also can not plan for all the "what if's". If you spend all your time worrying about what could go wrong you will never do anything.

Remember, there are two kinds of people in this world. The ones that set around and talk about all the things they could have/should have done and the ones that stop talking and go get it.

 

[lennyzx11]

As the ex owner of two businesses built from the ground up. Nothing fancy.

I think it will be hard to maintain that 1 garage a week goal. The population that want a garage like you say versus those that have the money to do it won't support those numbers. Your demographics. You gotta have a demand.

Why is this important?
Those crackerjack contractors are going to get hungry sitting by in the bench waiting on a next job. They are going to find something else to do and then be busy/committed when you need them for an order.
The full return that you can make off the top (GCs usually 10%) plus what you can get on materials profit (10-30%) is thin.

Unwanted advice from the Internet...

Try to work someone else into doing what you want that have a crew AND other jobs to keep them busy and sell them jobs as a salesman for a % commission off the top. Walk away to the next one. Let them deal with it.

Still set on doing it? Then By God Do It!

Try to line up 90 days of work before the first hammer gets swung. That leaves you that first week to build the first one. The second , third and fourth week you are going to have to carry the payroll. Then 30 days to get your first money back in and then each week a new check will start arriving. You as a bare minimum are going to have to have 5 weeks of payroll to keep the hands fed. Or you'll lose them. They may think you are the best boss in the world but gotta eat. And a hand that gets a rep as a job jumper doesn't go far and you can't trust them to be there.

And as far as furnishing equipment, Absolutely not! Unless you are right there watching it get used, it will get mistreated. Then you'll need a replacement or retire before that next week's job.

My most laying awake at nights was thinking about keeping enough work to keep the hands fed. I didn't have the money to just give them a paycheck and so had to have it coming in to go out. There was a lot of times there wasn't any left for me those first years.

 

[EJP1234]

Engineered and stamped construction drawings?

Permitting?

Back up crews?

Liability?

Geotechnical reports for proper footing designs?

Wind load studies for trusses?

Multiple material sources, that are typically proprietary as the manufacturers are installers themselves?

Dude.... I've been running a construction company that does $6-12mil/yr in revenue for a while... Though we aren't huge we are good. We didn't just jump in... We were all seasoned professionals prior, and if we just one day decided to do this with no prior "construction BUSINESS" experience we would have lost our rear ends a long time ago and probably lost our houses etc etc....

PS - we make good money... But often we scratch our heads and wonder why we do this, as the unseen is always the most expensive, and you certainly don't see a lot until it's too late. And that $250k mentioned earlier is probably about right, as your going to want around a $1mil credit line.... Wait until your first draw isn't paid, your insurance goes up etc etc..... Your material people stop shipping you supplies and report to D&B and no one will sell you anything....

 

[AxleHub]

Brett, As you can see from this thread you started, there are alot of different viewpoints and perspectives on your idea and plans.

1. Lets notice that your communicating has changed. Your 1st post assumed we at TBN would know you and believe in your abilities so you didn't communicate why you could succeed . . Only that you would. Then as responses came in . . You recognized you were being tested and doubted . . so you needed to show and communicate your abilities.

I'd guess your builder you had so much problems with . . assumed alot of communication he didn't do also. I'm not saying he "was good just misunderstood" . . What I'm saying is you in the start of this thread . . misjudged the need to communicate with tbn posters too. You recktified part of that error by starting to explain more later in the thread . . But the point is . . You didn't recognize the need at first . . and that was your builder's problem with you or other client's and his workers.

2. There is a separation between people that are employees and those that are employers . . and I don't mean in who pays you. Its a perspective . . an understanding . . a motivation difference. Some employed people think like an employer while some employers think like they are an employee.

Here is an example from your own statements. Your primary income and job is and will continue to be . . Working 10 days per month as a fireman. But I imagine those 10 days are 24 hour days. And that job is your financial security and your future retirement source. The building side is a part time effort. But if you are thinking like an employer . . You would understand that both efforts are "full time" efforts. Crews that work for you have no fireman's job to fall back in. They are full time builders and need full-time projects to keep them busy and compensated. So they will need to "fit you in" to their schedules or pressure you to be finding more work for them. This is why I had suggested forming a partnership rather than an employer/employee situation (or a salesman/coordinator agreement).

3. You certainly aren't the 1st fireman to have this situation. Firemen normally are both physically fit and quite familiarvwith construction. Some form crews that work together during their off days . . and do remodel and cobstruction projects or you could find crews that want to work 2 to 3 weeks pet month.

 

[bspeedy]

I personally don't see how you run a business like this part-time. I think it's all in or not. Other things to do part-time that would be more flexible. Had enough internet advice yet?

 

[Thall303]

Check from the fire department might start looking really good