Is it time for a gasoline engine tractor?

[truckdiagnostics]

Am I missing something? I must be the only guy around that does not have these devastating issues. It's getting shovel deep in this thread

I am at a lose also. Just finished rebuilding the engine in the boat that sat for two years. same fuel in the tank. Carb, started and ran fine. It will be a cold day in **** when I own anything on a diesel engine for emissions control other than EGR. The emission controls on the truck engines is a nightmare. If I could figure out how to get a car with out the emission controls I would, that however is just not practical. I am constantly messing with the EVAP system and i don't care who makes it, it messes up. On the control side gas powered has the advantage of no DPF fluid and gas is cheaper than diesel. Diesel still has its place, if you are pulling a load regularly with your truck or working your tractor regularly sure.

 

[GManBart]

The same people arguing the same points as in the 60 page thread. Good thing I'm not an Admin

 

[buickanddeere]

The BTU value of diesel is 30% greater than gasoline. Thus the better economy of running diesel. That plus the typical savings per gallon through the years have rendered it a cost savings versus gas. That price difference has flipped in the last few years though and the complexity and maintenance, upkeep, and cost differential of diesel engines specifically in pickup trucks are now harder to justify over gas. I know Kubota is developing gas replacement engines but I don't know if you will see much more movement and development in tractors for gasoline engines. Heck around here we get our pants all wet when we have a thread started about a F150 diesel possibly looming in the future. It is a macho thing with some guys. JMHO

First of all you are going to have to work on the facts and your math. Diesel btu per gallon is 139,000 btu and gasoline 124,000btu. That is 112% or 89% depending which way you look at it.

Developing a diesel that runs clean and efficient at full rated rpm and at full rated power continuous for hours is not a big deal. A diesel used in puttering around duty idling , start stop, light loads, part throttle and reduced rpms has low stack and combustion chamber temperature . Combustion is not as clean and the exhaust scrubbing system is not as effective when "cool".
As for fuel being inherently clean and requiring less " treatment " to obtain clean stack. In order of difficulty to keep emissions low , #6 fuel oil, #2 diesel, #1 diesel, kerosene , gasoline , LP and natural gas.
Hence LP used on fork lifts, man lifts etc that often idle or operate at part load. It's simpler, easier and cheaper to start off with clean combustion instead of cleaning up dirty combustion.

 

[vsteel]

Lawnmower?

Keep in mind the smaller motors don't have to comply to the regulations that a larger motor does. That is also why if you notice the lawnmowers now are set to run at one speed. You start it and it is running full speed and there are no throttle controls.

A gas tractor could work and would work except for a few things.

1. Most all large equipment is setup for diesel so for things like tractors there is probably already a good fuel supply and depending on the work site they might only have diesel.
2. Gas equipment is thirsty. Plow with the Oliver 770, would start out in the morning with a full 20 gallon tank, come in for lunch and have to fill it, go out in the afternoon and come back at night and have to fill it again. The gas tractors always had to get refilled more often. Working the tractors hard, the gas tractors would never last the day without a fill up.

That being said some things have changed.

1. Gas engines last so much longer than they used to, the life expectancy gap has narrowed.
2. Emissions items on gas motors are well known and proven.
3. Gas engines will start when it is horrifically cold. Though modern diesels have closed this gap a lot as well.

On a side note. That horrible ethanol fuel runs just fine in the 1952 Oliver 77 (still used a lot), 1951 IH Super C, 1958 Chevy ton and a half truck, 64 Chevy 1 ton, 1967 Oliver 770 (still used a lot), 69 Road Runner, 70 Nova SS, 74 Dodge powerwagon, 75 dodge W200, 91 GMC Sonoma and other vehicles. It runs fine in my lawnmowers, chainsaws and trimmers since the mid 80s just fine. Oh and I never run them dry, I store wet filled to the top. I can grab my chainsaw after sitting 8 months, give it choke and fire it up without any issues. I fired up my 74 powerwagon after almost a year of sitting with E10 in the tank and it ran great.

I know there might be some issues but I think 95% of the time people blame E10 for motor issues because the mechanic sucks or they don't want to tell the engine owner he doesn't know how to take care of his stuff.

 

[GManBart]

First of all you are going to have to work on the facts and your math. Diesel btu per gallon is 139,000 btu and gasoline 124,000btu. That is 112% or 89% depending which way you look at it.

If you're going to tell someone to work on their facts, you should try the same thing. Diesel BTU per gallon is 129,000 BTU. Any of the ethanol blends of regular unleaded come in around 111,000 BTU.

 

[gwstang]

Yeah and talk about cleaning up the environment. For sure a twofer.

Better stock up on fuel filters because them politicians are sure full of crap! :laughing:

 

[bigdeano]

Maybe some brands of gas keep better than others. I use Chevron gas because that's the closest station. I've never had problems from ethanol gas except for a fuel line on a string trimmer, but maybe it would have gone bad without the ethanol.

 

[Soundguy]

You and your working gassers are an enigma.

I was out mowing ROW and easements at lunch with my 55 950 trike... Ethanol fuel and all.

 

[Soundguy]

Keep in mind the smaller motors don't have to comply to the regulations that a larger motor does. That is also why if you notice the lawnmowers now are set to run at one speed. You start it and it is running full speed and there are no throttle controls.

A gas tractor could work and would work except for a few things.

1. Most all large equipment is setup for diesel so for things like tractors there is probably already a good fuel supply and depending on the work site they might only have diesel.
2. Gas equipment is thirsty. Plow with the Oliver 770, would start out in the morning with a full 20 gallon tank, come in for lunch and have to fill it, go out in the afternoon and come back at night and have to fill it again. The gas tractors always had to get refilled more often. Working the tractors hard, the gas tractors would never last the day without a fill up.

That being said some things have changed.

1. Gas engines last so much longer than they used to, the life expectancy gap has narrowed.
2. Emissions items on gas motors are well known and proven.
3. Gas engines will start when it is horrifically cold. Though modern diesels have closed this gap a lot as well.

On a side note. That horrible ethanol fuel runs just fine in the 1952 Oliver 77 (still used a lot), 1951 IH Super C, 1958 Chevy ton and a half truck, 64 Chevy 1 ton, 1967 Oliver 770 (still used a lot), 69 Road Runner, 70 Nova SS, 74 Dodge powerwagon, 75 dodge W200, 91 GMC Sonoma and other vehicles. It runs fine in my lawnmowers, chainsaws and trimmers since the mid 80s just fine. Oh and I never run them dry, I store wet filled to the top. I can grab my chainsaw after sitting 8 months, give it choke and fire it up without any issues. I fired up my 74 powerwagon after almost a year of sitting with E10 in the tank and it ran great.

I know there might be some issues but I think 95% of the time people blame E10 for motor issues because the mechanic sucks or they don't want to tell the engine owner he doesn't know how to take care of his stuff.

I can assure you my very new mtd mower does indeed have a throttle, and can be run at more than one engine speed!

What is the hp limit on your "small engines dont have to comply" statement?

Gas tractors from 9-30 hp have done lots of work in the last 70 years...

As for life expectancy.. I'd say gassers started out goid then dropped in the 70's and are now coming back.

Running, working gasser antiques testify to that.

 

[dickfoster]

The BTU value of diesel is 30% greater than gasoline. Thus the better economy of running diesel. That plus the typical savings per gallon through the years have rendered it a cost savings versus gas. That price difference has flipped in the last few years though and the complexity and maintenance, upkeep, and cost differential of diesel engines specifically in pickup trucks are now harder to justify over gas. I know Kubota is developing gas replacement engines but I don't know if you will see much more movement and development in tractors for gasoline engines. Heck around here we get our pants all wet when we have a thread started about a F150 diesel possibly looming in the future. It is a macho thing with some guys. JMHO

There is a reason so many diesel cars are running around in Europe where fuel is much more costly than here. No lack of performance on the Autobahn either.

 

[dickfoster]

What ? Take another look . A tier IV gasser is less complex than a Tier IV diesel.

I doubt that. Gasoline engines have a lot of technology under the hood these days. EFI has a lot of stuff going on.

 

[dickfoster]

Better stock up on fuel filters because them politicians are sure full of crap! :laughing:

That's true. When I was buying this house the septic had to be pumped out. I asked the septic company how much they'd charge to make a run down to Sacramento and pump all the BS out the capitol building. They told me they didn't have enough trucks and besides there wasn't a dump station that could handle it all. BTW BS convets to methane so it's organic which should keep all the greenies, tree huggers and hippie types happy.

 

[MossRoad]

You don't park your car for months, I guess you don't have a tractor. HS

My gasoline powered IH2500b sat for 6 months a year out in a field with a tarp over it and 10% ethanol in the tank for about 10 years. It never failed to start or run each spring.

My 85 chevy pickup sits in my back yard. Every summer I put a battery in it and fire it up a couple times per summer to make sure the engine doesn't seize up. The last time I put gasoline in it was about 2006. :laughing:

 

[MossRoad]

I was out mowing ROW and easements at lunch with my 55 950 trike... Ethanol fuel and all.

I was vacuuming my pool while you mowed with your vintage tractor. :laughing:

I did fire up my 93 Suburban with 10% ethanol and drive it to the store, though. We were low on milk and peanut butter, some kale and collard greens for the kid's pet tortoise, and some kidney beans and diced tomatoes for a batch of chili. :licking:

I can't remember.... you got any Olivers?

 

[Turbys_1700]

First of all you are going to have to work on the facts and your math. Diesel btu per gallon is 139,000 btu and gasoline 124,000btu. That is 112% or 89% depending which way you look at it.

Developing a diesel that runs clean and efficient at full rated rpm and at full rated power continuous for hours is not a big deal. A diesel used in puttering around duty idling , start stop, light loads, part throttle and reduced rpms has low stack and combustion chamber temperature . Combustion is not as clean and the exhaust scrubbing system is not as effective when "cool".
As for fuel being inherently clean and requiring less " treatment " to obtain clean stack. In order of difficulty to keep emissions low , #6 fuel oil, #2 diesel, #1 diesel, kerosene , gasoline , LP and natural gas.
Hence LP used on fork lifts, man lifts etc that often idle or operate at part load. It's simpler, easier and cheaper to start off with clean combustion instead of cleaning up dirty combustion.

Didn't know you were an engineer...
That 30% number is from Fuel oil that is 152K BTU...
My EDS is not in math but my math is fine thank you very much...

 

[MossRoad]

There is a reason so many diesel cars are running around in Europe where fuel is much more costly than here. No lack of performance on the Autobahn either.

The reason was that diesels produce about 15% less CO2 than gas engines, so they all hopped on that. They thought that was the way out of global warming.

Now they are finding that diesels produce 400% more nitrogen dioxide and 2200% more particulates than gas engines (the stuff that gets in your lungs).

The rise of diesel in Europe: the impact on health and pollution | Environment | The Guardian

Diesel: How it changed Europe and how Europe might change back | Ars Technica

 

[Soundguy]

I was vacuuming my pool while you mowed with your vintage tractor. :laughing:

I did fire up my 93 Suburban with 10% ethanol and drive it to the store, though. We were low on milk and peanut butter, some kale and collard greens for the kid's pet tortoise, and some kidney beans and diced tomatoes for a batch of chili. :licking:

I can't remember.... you got any Olivers?

Not yet.

Ford, new Holland,ih/farmall, case, John deer, Allis Chalmers.. That's about it

 

[buickanddeere]

Keep in mind the smaller motors don't have to comply to the regulations that a larger motor does. That is also why if you notice the lawnmowers now are set to run at one speed. You start it and it is running full speed and there are no throttle controls.

A gas tractor could work and would work except for a few things.

1. Most all large equipment is setup for diesel so for things like tractors there is probably already a good fuel supply and depending on the work site they might only have diesel.
2. Gas equipment is thirsty. Plow with the Oliver 770, would start out in the morning with a full 20 gallon tank, come in for lunch and have to fill it, go out in the afternoon and come back at night and have to fill it again. The gas tractors always had to get refilled more often. Working the tractors hard, the gas tractors would never last the day without a fill up.

That being said some things have changed.

1. Gas engines last so much longer than they used to, the life expectancy gap has narrowed.
2. Emissions items on gas motors are well known and proven.
3. Gas engines will start when it is horrifically cold. Though modern diesels have closed this gap a lot as well.

On a side note. That horrible ethanol fuel runs just fine in the 1952 Oliver 77 (still used a lot), 1951 IH Super C, 1958 Chevy ton and a half truck, 64 Chevy 1 ton, 1967 Oliver 770 (still used a lot), 69 Road Runner, 70 Nova SS, 74 Dodge powerwagon, 75 dodge W200, 91 GMC Sonoma and other vehicles. It runs fine in my lawnmowers, chainsaws and trimmers since the mid 80s just fine. Oh and I never run them dry, I store wet filled to the top. I can grab my chainsaw after sitting 8 months, give it choke and fire it up without any issues. I fired up my 74 powerwagon after almost a year of sitting with E10 in the tank and it ran great.

I know there might be some issues but I think 95% of the time people blame E10 for motor issues because the mechanic sucks or they don't want to tell the engine owner he doesn't know how to take care of his stuff.

Lets not forget the Oliver 770 was a 1958 to 1967 vintage low compression carburated gasser burning leaded fuel and produced 12.25 HP per hour per gallon of gasoline , 4.3 gallons per hour at full power to make 50.0HP.
The diesel made 14.5 HP per gallon per hour and used 3.4 gallons of high sulphur per hour to make 48.8HP.
Those are Nebraska tests b.t.w.
Taking a wild guess the fuel tank held maybe 25 gallons ?
In the grand scheme of things having to refuel every 5-1/2 hrs instead of every 7hrs is not that big of a deal. In particular when gasoline has been cheaper than diesel the past 9-10 years.
Getting back to engines of 2016 instead of the 1950's. Today's direct injection high compression gas operating on cheaper gasoline would put the 1950's Waukesha diesel to shame. For those of you who like to compare modern diesels to old gassers. Turn about is fairplay.

 

[buickanddeere]

.............edited

 

[buickanddeere]

Didn't know you were an engineer...
That 30% number is from Fuel oil that is 152K BTU...
My EDS is not in math but my math is fine thank you very much...

Here is diesel with 113% vs gasoline. The fuel oil number does not exist.
Gasoline gallon equivalent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia