I think i broke something....

BigCountry1689 · Feb 20, 2016

Tractor: 2015 NX 4510HST 27hrs.

Well today I was working in the pasture cleaning brush with the grapple when I smelled a strong hydraulic fluid smell. I got off to inspect and found out that the diverter for the grapple was leaking. I decided to drive back to the shop and inspect. It turns out that there are 2 small screws, or plugs I'm not sure. But anyways one of them had loosened substantialy. I removed the plug and saw that there was an o-ring that had torn so I replaced it and tightened the screw in. I decided to start the tractor up to see if it had resolved the problem, and it had. Next I figured because of the amount of fluid lost I should check the hydro level, and it was low. So I went in the shop got out 2 gallons of hydro fluid (New Premium hydro fluid from tractor supply) and began slowly adding and checking
the dip stick. Now the tractor was not running, it was on level ground, and the loader was about 2 feet up. When I reached the halfway point I stopped. About this time I decided to get lunch so I went in the house. About 1.5 hours later I come out and start the tractor and it starts up fine. About 10 mins later while driving back to the pasture the grapple just opens on its own. Then the tractor boggs down (under no strain). All the sudden the tractor slows way down and the Rpm's drop like the brake is on. I figure there is a big problem so I turn back to the shop. When I was almost there I hear a pop like a champagne bottle and so I stop the tractor. I get off and look at the back by the 3pt hitch and see were the pop came from. The dipstick for the hydro had shot off and a frothy hydro fluid is shooting out. Now guessing that I must have overfilled the tank, so I got a clean hose and a bucket and took out a large amount of fluid probably 1.5 gallons. This took the fluid back down to halfway on the dipstick(engine running). But the issues still persist if I drive or use the loader the unit just boggs down in all 3 gears. One more thing I forgot to mention was that first thing before I started working I had to put a new cylinder on the loader, I dont know if this makes a difference. It has been a mess and I havn't wanted to even move it. The fluid goes back to clear when it sits but as soon as it warms up it turns frothy again. Now it's of course under warranty but I dont really want to haul it 2.5 hours if avoidable.

Thanks for any insight.

MinnesotaEric · Feb 20, 2016

EDITED

Check your owner's manual for the HST bleeding procedure. Ask ThreePoint more about it as it seems to me he had a problem with bleeding his system. Also, are you using straight hydro fluid or transmission/hydro fluid?

To me it sounds like you have way too much hydro fluid or the tank line is plugged as I'm trying to explain why a ram would active on its own unless you have wet wires shorting the diverter valve.

Also, did you get all of the old o-ring out and who installed the diverter valve, you or a dealer?

O-ring wise, was the o-ring damaged from assembly? As in o-rings that have something pass through them require some type of assembly lube, normally the fluid that they are sealing against.

BigCountry1689 · Feb 20, 2016

I think it was straight hydraulic fluid, I will check in the morning. I didnt see anything on the shelf that was a combo like that.

BigCountry1689 · Feb 20, 2016

Just checked the website yes it was, Premium universal tractor trans hydro/transmission fluid.

cutthroat · Feb 20, 2016

Yes very curious to see if this is related to the fluid. I too just bought this Traveller Premium Universal Tractor fluid from TSC. Haven't used it yet though. Here is the manufacture information about the fluid I found last night, universaltractorhydraulic.html.
Also, Tractor Hydraulic Fluid Finder states this is the correct stuff to use for other Kioti models.

-Craig

JoelD · Feb 21, 2016

Interesting
I am having similar problem where my backhoe dipper stick ram is activating itself to the point my machine loads down but not to the extent of yours rather mine is loading down because mine is hitting relief valve as ram can't move anymore when dipper is fully retracted but trying to retract further as the joystick is moving on its own to the retract position

You sound like that is what may have initially happened as grapple activated itself

Sounds like your setup is a bit more complex than mine though

I wonder if the plugs you messed with by replacing o-ring my have settings that you've got wrong now?

Sorry I can't be of more help as I'm still sorting mine out

Joel

BigCountry1689 · Feb 21, 2016

Thank you for the replies so far. I went out this morning to look at it again, mainly because I was up most of the night thinking about, not that I could do anything. I decided to start it up and see if maybe after cooling down that might of changed things. I checked the fluid again and it is just below halfway on the stick, started it up and same crap no get up and go! Only new thing is an error code appeared when starting. I didnt catch it in time to see what it was because I wasnt expecting it. I talked to the wife last night and I am just going to send to the dealer for repair.

Threepoint · Feb 21, 2016

EricTheOracle said:
[snip]

Check your owner's manual for the HST bleeding procedure. Ask ThreePoint more about it as it seems to me he had a problem with bleeding his system. Also, are you using straight hydro fluid or transmission/hydro fluid?

[snip]

BigCountry, don't know if it will help with your current problem, but I'd next try bleeding the HST system. Sure won't hurt. I needed to do it after changing the hydraulic/transmission oil at my 50 hr. service, as I had no loader function until I did. Kioti suggests doing it whenever changing hydro oil, filters, etc. Here is the procedure for the NX series. Easy to do by raising the front axle on jackstands. I didn't bother disconnecting the solenoid, and had no problem.
View attachment NX HST bleed procedure.pdf

BigCountry1689 · Feb 21, 2016

Thanks, I wasnt able to open the attachment. Is it in the workshop manual, I bought one with the tractor.

MinnesotaEric · Feb 21, 2016

BigCountry1689 said:
Thank you for the replies so far. I went out this morning to look at it again, mainly because I was up most of the night thinking about, not that I could do anything. I decided to start it up and see if maybe after cooling down that might of changed things. I checked the fluid again and it is just below halfway on the stick, started it up and same crap no get up and go! Only new thing is an error code appeared when starting. I didnt catch it in time to see what it was because I wasnt expecting it. I talked to the wife last night and I am just going to send to the dealer for repair.

Shucks. Be sure to tell us what happened once your dealer is able to puzzle through the issue.

ritcheyvs · Feb 21, 2016

Curiosity about your grapple setup: do you have a diverter where you push a button and control the grapple with the loader joystick or a power-beyond setup the enables simultaneous loader and grapple operation?

BigCountry1689 · Feb 21, 2016

I have the power beyond from EA. You just push the button and operate you dont have to move the joystick at the same time.

MinnesotaEric · Feb 21, 2016

BigCountry1689 said:
I have the power beyond from EA. You just push the button and operate you dont have to move the joystick at the same time.

Unless I've failed to understand, what you have sounds like a third function, not a diverter valve.

Threepoint · Feb 21, 2016

BigCountry1689 said:
Thanks, I wasnt able to open the attachment. Is it in the workshop manual, I bought one with the tractor.

Hmm, the attachment is a pdf. Doesn't double-clicking link give you the option to "open with" or "save as"? Should be able to open it with Adobe Reader, among other applications. In any event, it is section 6-27 in the pdf version of the manual that I have. I'm assuming that corresponds to the hard copy you have. Look under chapter 6 - HST.

ritcheyvs · Feb 21, 2016

In that case, I suspect your diverter valve is dead-heading the hydraulic flow, which loads down the engine and froths the hydro oil as it is forced through the relief valve. Does your 3-point still work (I'm guessing no)? Something you did when you replaced the O-ring caused this, I think. I'm not familiar with your valve but maybe that plug was some kind of adjustment and you "adjusted" so the valve block the flow. This is just guesswork on my part but maybe someone like JJ (who actually understands hydraulics) can elaborate.

Threepoint · Feb 21, 2016

Threepoint said:
Hmm, the attachment is a pdf. Doesn't double-clicking link give you the option to "open with" or "save as"? Should be able to open it with Adobe Reader, among other applications. In any event, it is section 6-27 in the pdf version of the manual that I have. I'm assuming that corresponds to the hard copy you have. Look under chapter 6 - HST.

BigCountry, in case you don't find it in your copy of the manual, here is the pdf converted to jpg and uploaded again. Clarity is not as good with the application I used, but I think you can make it out.

countrybumpkin · Feb 21, 2016

ritcheyvs said:
In that case, I suspect your diverter valve is dead-heading the hydraulic flow, which loads down the engine and froths the hydro oil as it is forced through the relief valve. Does your 3-point still work (I'm guessing no)? Something you did when you replaced the O-ring caused this, I think. I'm not familiar with your valve but maybe that plug was some kind of adjustment and you "adjusted" so the valve block the flow. This is just guesswork on my part but maybe someone like JJ (who actually understands hydraulics) can elaborate.

I was going to ask the same thing about the valve for the grapple, if it was for sure a diverter or 3rd function. Seeing that it is a 3rd function type And you said the grapple opened on its own is telling me the valve for some reason is bypassing and dead heading your hydraulics causing the oil to over heat and starving part of the system for oil.

ritcheyvs · Feb 21, 2016

Can you by-pass the grapple? Will the two tractor-side hoses connect to each pother? Or do you (by chance) have a short bypass hose that would work?

I suspect the third function valve is providing constant "open" pressure to your grapple because there is something wrong with that valve (e.g. stuck/manned/ etc/) If so, bypassing the grapple would restore normal operation to the rest of the tractor, at least as a diagnostic.

You do not want to operate for extended periods with the hydraulics deadheaded. That could damage the pump, perhaps seals, and maybe even the transmission, from frothing.

BigCountry1689 · Feb 21, 2016

The grapple is functioning normally as of this morning. The only thing I noticed was that when I closed it it would spring back open about 4-5 inches. I will take a couple of pics of the plugs on the side of the third function to maybe provide some clarification. It seemed to me that they went all the way in as there was no resistance.

Threepoint- thank you for the pdf, I will try that in the morning.

I dont have the parts at the moment to bypass the third function, but I can pick up something tomorrow at TSC.

It seems any use of hydraulics is killing the engine (3 pt, loader, fwd, rev, or grapple). I only ran it for about 4 min This morning and decided not to go any further until getting more info. I will try all suggestions tommorow morning.

Thanks in advance for all advice.