L3200/3800/3301/3901 Rear Hydraulic Remotes Install Corrections/Hints

[s219]

Unless you are just dead set on having the integrated valve system, you can get better valves for less money going after market. About a $1000 less.

I have nothing against a budget system, since it gets the job done -- so if you can get by with $100 valves to go along with $150 cylinders, it could all be done for about $600-700 with hoses, fittings, etc. It won't look like much and the integration might be crude, but it's a great value.

I think where things go astray is spending more than that for a semi-packaged aftermarket system that still doesn't integrate well with the tractor. I don't see the point. Once you start getting up past $1000 for valves, my recommendation is to just spend the money for the nicely integrated OEM valve kit for this tractor, as I haven't really seen an aftermarket or homemade system for these tractors that didn't look kludgey and still take fiddling to get right. The OEM kit has great integration/ergonomics and is high quality, and that type of design/fab is not easily done by other folks. I spent $1300 for the OEM kit with two valves (one float/detent), rear outlets, fittings, etc.

And then make up your savings by doing the hydraulic cylinders and hoses yourself because that is pretty easy to do. I spent less than $150 for my top link with custom hoses, fittings, etc. Side link would cost me even less. So all in I would be at about $1600 for the valves and cylinders, in the ballpark of aftermarket kits (and actually less than some I have seen). Look at the big picture when thinking about the budget and put the money where it is best spent.

 

[lennyzx11]

After looking, it appears that it may be best to just run a towable splitter. So a good combination would be
1. Valve with float for top link
2. Valve with float for side link
3. This one I'm still open about but think a normal DA one either with a detent or provision it to stay on by a bungee or barrel lock/latch.

 

[s219]

After looking, it appears that it may be best to just run a towable splitter. So a good combination would be
1. Valve with float for top link
2. Valve with float for side link
3. This one I'm still open about but think a normal DA one either with a detent or provision it to stay on by a bungee or barrel lock/latch.

I came to the same conclusion about a towable splitter, mainly because I didn't want to tie the tractor down -- it needs to be available to bring logs and wood to the splitting site.

 

[avc8130]

I am very surprised that a true TLB has this type of valve. Thank you for clearing this up and admitting that on the regen side it is slow and has basically no power. There have been other discussions on other forums where the guys say every thing works fine, same speed, same amount of power etc. I questioned them, but to no avail. It makes no actual difference to me, I don't have those types of valves on anything.

Thanks again. :thumbsup:

In reality, I'm not surprised in the least. Other than running equipment other than a loader/bucket, what would the L45 FEL valve be used for? The 4-position loader valve found on tractors with removable loaders makes sense to me. Those loaders come off and the same valve is used to run Kubota optional snow plows and front mount blower chute controls. The FEL is permanent on the L45 so there really is nothing else the FEL valve should be used for in Kubota's mind. They offer a 3rd function kit if you want front hydraulics so that is the way they assume their commercial market would go to run augers and grapples.

Anyone telling you a regen dump circuit works with a diverter is a liar. Think about it, they simply can't be telling the truth or they are too ignorant to know any better. 1st of all, it will ONLY run DA cylinders. 2nd of all, it will ONLY run a DA cylinder in the same manner as the original curl/dump setup. If hooked up backwards it will simply not move when the regen direction is activated.

WRT to speed...it's not possible to be "fine". The regen direction is slow as mollasses. Think about it, we are relying on the minute difference in cylinder piston vs rod side geometry to make motion. No way on earth that is equally as fast as a properly running cylinder where one side is pressurized and the other goes to tank.

WRT to power...this is more subjective, but I don't feel like I have the power I should when using the regen direction. The regen direction closes my grapple. When I try to pinch something it seems to tap out before it applies the pressure I think it should be capable of. Both sides of the piston have pressure, so maybe it finds a "neutral" once the pressure relief kicks in?

Another major drawback: You simply can't run anything that isn't a DA cylinder. No hydraulic motors so no hydraulic auger.

Either way, regen + diverter = major disappointment. I'll definitely be swapping to the lift circuit come Spring.

ac

 

[MtnViewRanch]

In reality, I'm not surprised in the least. Other than running equipment other than a loader/bucket, what would the L45 FEL valve be used for? The 4-position loader valve found on tractors with removable loaders makes sense to me. Those loaders come off and the same valve is used to run Kubota optional snow plows and front mount blower chute controls. The FEL is permanent on the L45 so there really is nothing else the FEL valve should be used for in Kubota's mind. They offer a 3rd function kit if you want front hydraulics so that is the way they assume their commercial market would go to run augers and grapples.

Anyone telling you a regen dump circuit works with a diverter is a liar. Think about it, they simply can't be telling the truth or they are too ignorant to know any better. 1st of all, it will ONLY run DA cylinders. 2nd of all, it will ONLY run a DA cylinder in the same manner as the original curl/dump setup. If hooked up backwards it will simply not move when the regen direction is activated.

WRT to speed...it's not possible to be "fine". The regen direction is slow as mollasses. Think about it, we are relying on the minute difference in cylinder piston vs rod side geometry to make motion. No way on earth that is equally as fast as a properly running cylinder where one side is pressurized and the other goes to tank.

WRT to power...this is more subjective, but I don't feel like I have the power I should when using the regen direction. The regen direction closes my grapple. When I try to pinch something it seems to tap out before it applies the pressure I think it should be capable of. Both sides of the piston have pressure, so maybe it finds a "neutral" once the pressure relief kicks in?

Another major drawback: You simply can't run anything that isn't a DA cylinder. No hydraulic motors so no hydraulic auger.

Either way, regen + diverter = major disappointment. I'll definitely be swapping to the lift circuit come Spring.

ac

First off, you don't need to explain anything to me, I understand how the regen works. I simply passed on what other people had said and thought that I had conveyed that it was most unlikely. I guess not.

So you don't use your loader for digging at all? With having only regen for the dump circuit, how do you angle the bucket into the ground? I know that on my 580 Case , we use the bucket to dig with all the time. I always thought of the Kubota TLB as little commercial machines, no? Seems like it wouild be a pain to have to always set the angle before you had the bucket on the ground, probably just something that you get use to though.

No big deal either way, I was just surprised is all.

 

[avc8130]

First off, you don't need to explain anything to me, I understand how the regen works. I simply passed on what other people had said and thought that I had conveyed that it was most unlikely. I guess not.

So you don't use your loader for digging at all? With having only regen for the dump circuit, how do you angle the bucket into the ground? I know that on my 580 Case , we use the bucket to dig with all the time. I always thought of the Kubota TLB as little commercial machines, no? Seems like it wouild be a pain to have to always set the angle before you had the bucket on the ground, probably just something that you get use to though.

No big deal either way, I was just surprised is all.

Brian,

I didn't think I had to explain anything to you. I was trying to provide enough explanation to support my experiences. Since you know so much, can you confirm my experience that the dump circuit "loses power" when you push it to pressure relief?

My machine has no trouble digging with the front bucket. It easily lifts the front of the machine with the dump circuit. The TLB IS a "little commercial machine", I'm not sure how full size machine loaders are done as I have no experience. I'm pretty sure the operators manual suggests small cuts with the bucket when digging, but that is the same advice given in my "How to Operate TLBs" book that is intended for starting professional operators. The operators manual for the L45 specs the "Digging Depth" as 3.5". I've never noticed any issue with the loader function until I installed the diverter. Lesson learned on this side and I feel like the topic isn't discussed enough on the forum so I'm trying to bring it up more to educate the masses. Even if my machine had the 4-position valve, pushing passed a detent every time using the diverter might get old to me.

I'm attaching a picture of the FEL control function for a Kubota with 3-position FEL valve. If someone has a tractor with this sticker on the loader, I strongly suggest they go 3rd function or at least prepare to use the lift function for the diverter.

ac

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Not all tractors, in fact most I would say have the regen at the far right, not like the Kubota units that have regen before the normal dump. To the best of my knowledge, only Kubota and JD use the regen only dump circuit on their tractors.

Say the cylinders are 2" dia with 1 1/4" dia rods. Pump is set at 2500psi. Rod side has 4800lbs of force. Piston side has 7850lbs of force. Now go into regen and you only have 3050lbs of force. So yes you have gone from 7850 down to 3050. You have lost over 60% of the force that you would have without regen.

Yes you loose power in relief, that opens another port for the fluid to return to tank. Sort of depends on the system design and size as to just how much is lost.

 

[avc8130]

Not all tractors, in fact most I would say have the regen at the far right, not like the Kubota units that have regen before the normal dump. To the best of my knowledge, only Kubota and JD use the regen only dump circuit on their tractors.

Say the cylinders are 2" dia with 1 1/4" dia rods. Pump is set at 2500psi. Rod side has 4800lbs of force. Piston side has 7850lbs of force. Now go into regen and you only have 3050lbs of force. So yes you have gone from 7850 down to 3050. You have lost over 60% of the force that you would have without regen.

Yes you loose power in relief, that opens another port for the fluid to return to tank. Sort of depends on the system design and size as to just how much is lost.

That seems odd they would place regen on the far right. Using a bucket, wouldn't you want regen when dumping so you don't lose control of the load dumping accidentally? Maybe I misunderstand the true purpose of the regen?

I appreciate your math. That seems to coincide with my experience.

ac

 

[MtnViewRanch]

That seems odd they would place regen on the far right. Using a bucket, wouldn't you want regen when dumping so you don't lose control of the load dumping accidentally? Maybe I misunderstand the true purpose of the regen?

I appreciate your math. That seems to coincide with my experience.

ac

I'm not sure what you mean by "losing control of the load". Either you dump the load, or you dump the load quickly. (regen at far right) If anything, to me it makes more sense to go slow, then fast vs fast then slow (Grand Ls & M models I believe?)

Not that it really makes any difference, they both work, just have to adjust if you go from one type to the other.

Regen is suppose to dump faster, but to do that, the bucket needs to be loaded, the weight with the additional fluid from the rod end bumps up the GPM a bit that is flowing into the piston side (closed end) and is suppose to speed things up. For whatever reason this seems to work well on some machines and not so much with others. I believe that how ever it is that the valve is made happens to be why some seem to work better than others.

Didn't use to make much difference, but then people became aware and some what educated about this stuff. I wouldn't doubt that the manufacturers don't really like us all that much. :confused3:

 

[avc8130]

I'm not sure what you mean by "losing control of the load". Either you dump the load, or you dump the load quickly. (regen at far right) If anything, to me it makes more sense to go slow, then fast vs fast then slow (Grand Ls & M models I believe?)

Not that it really makes any difference, they both work, just have to adjust if you go from one type to the other.

Regen is suppose to dump faster, but to do that, the bucket needs to be loaded, the weight with the additional fluid from the rod end bumps up the GPM a bit that is flowing into the piston side (closed end) and is suppose to speed things up. For whatever reason this seems to work well on some machines and not so much with others. I believe that how ever it is that the valve is made happens to be why some seem to work better than others.

Didn't use to make much difference, but then people became aware and some what educated about this stuff. I wouldn't doubt that the manufacturers don't really like us all that much. :confused3:

Oh, I thought the purpose of the regen function was to maintain bucket control when dumping heavy loads. I don't understand how applying pressure in the opposing direction of the cylinder as well as the desired direction would result in a FASTER dump? I thought the concept was to control the dumping action even when the force of the dumping load was greater than the ability of they hydraulic system to control it. This probably wouldn't happen much on smaller machines with littler buckets and reduced loader capability.

ac

 

[lennyzx11]

I found this on a past post. Credit goes to KennyD of KennyDs Bolt on hooks fame.

Regen" or the "Regenerative" function of a FEL Valve? Read it here

Regen is a "feature" of most modern FEL (Front End Loader) valves, it's on the Dump (joystick far right) circuit, and is also referred to as "Fast Dump". The reason it is nice to have is that without it, the weight of a filled bucket can actually "pull" the bucket down faster then the fluid can enter the other side of the cylinder, this will create a air pocket and give the bucket a "floppy" feeling until the joystick is held in the dump mode a few seconds to refill the cylinder pushing the air past the seals. So we add "regen" or "regenerative" function to the valve. Regen solves this problem by actually filling both sides of the cylinder at the same time with hydraulic fluid. But how will that work you might ask? Well, because there is more volume on the side of the cylinder that extends it since the rod is taking up space in the other side, it "overpowers" the rod side and lets the cylinder extend-thereby dumping the bucket. So since now both sides of the cylinder are "pressurized", the air pocket can not develop, eliminating the "floppy" bucket syndrome. One other added bonus is that the bucket actually dumps faster due to the higher flow rate required to do all this, that's why it's referred to as "fast dump" sometimes.

 

[lennyzx11]

Just wanted to let everyone know. I called my dealer today and got a quote for the factory rear remote kit with one standard, one detent, and one standard valve. Parts only. $ 2345.00 USD

Shoulda read one float,one detent, & one standard valve.

 

[s219]

Just wanted to let everyone know. I called my dealer today and got a quote for the factory rear remote kit with one standard, one detent, and one standard valve.
Parts only.
$ 2345.00 USD

That seems way too high. Try Messicks as well. That's where I got my kit. They had it shipped to me in a matter of days.

 

[lennyzx11]

That seems way too high. Try Messicks as well. That's where I got my kit. They had it shipped to me in a matter of days.

I emailed them yesterday at same time and am waiting for their quote.

 

[Fallon]

I don't remember what I paid Fit Rite for my whole setup, but I think it was less than that for the whole setup including TnT & the nice valve with 3 spools & a joystick for TnT.

I'm sure mine was harder to install than an OEM kit (especially with the few mistakes I made ordering the wrong fittings), but it wasn't to bad.

I love that joystick for my TnT spools as its so intuitive & can float either cylinder (don't think it can hit the detent for both at the same time because of the joystick though).

My only regret is the cramped spot I put the disconnects at & that causing interference issues between TnT hoses & my quick hitch.

 

[lennyzx11]

Yes, Brian has quoted me by email and it was a significantly lower price. I was/am interested in the "bolt on" factor and the integration into the tractor with the mounting plates. I'm still researching all ideas but Brian's looks to be best. Still waiting on Messicks reply. Gotta admit. Kinda bothers me they never answered and Brian answered within hours!

 

[s219]

Send a PM to Neil Messick directly -- his username here is "MessickFarmEqu". This is a Kubota WholeGoods order, not a parts order.

If my experience holds true, you will pay more for the OEM valves but can save a lot of money doing cylinders yourself, so the total cost will be comparable or less than what I see people post about 3rd party TnT kits. Nothing against Fitrite -- he makes a great product at a very fair price if you need help putting together a turnkey system that is not OEM.

But my advice is to put the $$ into the OEM valve kit where there is a benefit in terms of fit and integration, because it's not time/cost effective to try and match that -- you can spend less but it's not nearly as nice. Top link and side link cylinders and hoses are far more generic, more readily available, and less critical -- don't need a factory fit there. So that's where you makeup the savings. I think I spent less than $300 for both cylinders, and then another $80-90 for custom hoses.

 

[lennyzx11]

Thanks. I just emailed Neil. I'll let you guys know.

 

[lennyzx11]

I did receive a reply back from Messicks yesterday.
Here's the parts only quote from them for my
2015 L3301/HST for three remotes.
1 standard
1 float
1 detent

L7211-549 - First position lever kit
L7212- 371 - 2nd Position stacking kit
L7213 - 371 - 3rd position stacking kit
L7232 - 4 position float detent valve - 310 X3 - 930

For a total of 2,221 - plus shipping.

 

[s219]

Here's what my breakdown was for the L3200 (two valves only):

L7334 1st position standard valve and valve/hose kit $700
L7364 2nd Position stacking kit $80
L7354 Float detent valve and hoses for 2nd position $525

Looks like they are packaging it differently now. The only issue I saw in your quote is that they are assuming three float valves at $310 each. If you want a standard valve (L7231) that would only be $175. The double detent self-cancel valve (L7233) would be $350.

If I duplicate my two-valve setup with the new parts, it would now cost $1405. Was $1305, so only a slight price increase. But they really clobber you for that third valve now. I guess it seems reasonable for two valves, but for three I'd be considering other options. Might come down to how bad you need/want that third valve versus the factory integration. Is it worth the cost to you?