Blue smoke on cold start/cold outside

Coyote machine · Dec 24, 2015

All I know about what I've been getting for fuel for my manufactured in 2010 DK-40 is this: I ask my diesel fuel supplier to bring me winterized off road diesel. I try to only fill my 300+ gallon fuel tank during the winter months so I get 'cut' fuel, which contains 'special sauce' that keep it from jelling like an insole in my boot.
I run the fuel through a water/fuel separator and a 10 micron fuel particulate filter before it goes in my tractor's tank. To date- since 2009, running hundreds of gallons of diesel, absolutely no problems. Note I store my diesel indoors in an insulated sealed tank and my tractor rests on a SwisTrax brand floor covering material over radiant heated concrete floor. It's my most well treated big work machine, (toy too).

liberty2701 · Dec 24, 2015

Amvcane said:
While following this thread, I noticed a boiler plate riveted to the valve cover of my 2012 CK35 hst. It tells me about the engine , emission control system, and what type of fuel to use.

You better have that looked into:cool2:

thorholt · Dec 24, 2015

Mine does pretty much the same thing, although it is a RX6010 tractor, This video was when it was warm outside probably 70 degrees out and the tractor has sat for 12 hours or so, it never does it if it sits for 3-4 hours.
When it is 30-40 degrees out mine smokes as bad as yours, My dealer is aware of the issue and we are watching to see if it gets worse, It has done it since it was new and now has 250 hrs on it and it has not changed.
I believe that it is a injector leaking down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isWPJLgjaUI

liberty2701 · Dec 24, 2015

thorholt said:
Mine does pretty much the same thing, although it is a RX6010 tractor, This video was when it was warm outside probably 70 degrees out and the tractor has sat for 12 hours or so, it never does it if it sits for 3-4 hours.
When it is 30-40 degrees out mine smokes as bad as yours, My dealer is aware of the issue and we are watching to see if it gets worse, It has done it since it was new and now has 250 hrs on it and it has not changed.
I believe that it is a injector leaking down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isWPJLgjaUI

What type of fuel are you using?

Coyote machine · Dec 24, 2015

thorholt said:
Mine does pretty much the same thing, although it is a RX6010 tractor, This video was when it was warm outside probably 70 degrees out and the tractor has sat for 12 hours or so, it never does it if it sits for 3-4 hours.
When it is 30-40 degrees out mine smokes as bad as yours, My dealer is aware of the issue and we are watching to see if it gets worse, It has done it since it was new and now has 250 hrs on it and it has not changed.
I believe that it is a injector leaking down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isWPJLgjaUI

Since you say it doesn't do the smoke thing after 3-4 hours but does do it cold, I would tend to agree with the cause being a leaky injector. They don't have to be off by much to allow raw fuel to be unburned on start up. Have you tried any injector cleaner to see if that has an effect?

thorholt · Dec 25, 2015

Cenex low sulfur off road diesel fuel, Same as I use in all my equipment.

thorholt · Dec 25, 2015

I have only used 911 in it in cold weather a couple times, I bought it new and it has done it since new so I don't think the injectors would be dirty but not really sure, A friend of mine has the same tractor and his does it also but I don't think as bad as mine is.

ritcheyvs · Dec 26, 2015

I really doubt that sulfur content is a factor here. Mechanical IP (non common rail) Diesel engines ran just fine for decades on high sulfur Diesel. In fact, low (and ultra low) sulfur Diesel caused significant problems for rotary IP Diesels and probably increased wear for the rest. I suspect the HHO, like some summer Diesel, contains heavier petroleum distillates that won't burn at lower temperatures (like near the cold cylinder wall). I eagerly await a report on smoke (or absence thereof) with the engine burning only winter-formulated Diesel fuel.

liberty2701 · Jan 16, 2016

Here is the latest video of a cold start. I ran about 15 gals of ULSD from the pump with both Howse diesel treat and Power service Gray bottle at the max dosage. It now has in the tank ULSD and Howse only. The start is at an outdoor temp of 15 degrees and only one glow plug cycle. As you can see it smokes for about 10 seconds as compared to 60 seconds in the previous video. Huge improvement. It appears that the HHO was the culprit along with the cold weather starting. The exhaust also has a much more pleasant smell than before. What do you think? I also have a couple of pictures of what I have been doing over the winter. A small logging operartion. Using a Tafjun 35 winch.

How do you delete photos from the manage attachments section? I cannot figure it out.

Highgear · Jan 16, 2016

Would it do better if you had more RPM's at idle ?

liberty2701 · Jan 16, 2016

It clears up faster.

liberty2701 · Jan 16, 2016

I just started it today. Warmer at 30 degrees f. It only smoked for about 4 seconds.

joefromga · Jan 16, 2016

BLUE SMOKE is an indication of oil being burnt. The oil can enter the combustion chamber for several reasons.

Worn valve guides or seals

Wear in power assemblies (ie cylinders, piston rings, ring grooves)

Cylinder glaze

Piston ring sticking

Incorrect grade of oil (eg oil too thin, and migrating past the rings)

Fuel dilution in the oil (oil thinned out with diesel)

At cold start, blue smoke is often evident, and can reflect reduced oil control, due to fouling deposits around piston rings or cylinder glaze (which is actually carbon deposited in the machined cylinder crosshatching.

ritcheyvs · Jan 16, 2016

That video looks almost normal. The intermittent puffs of smoke lead me to suspect a weak or bad glow plug or poor injector spray pattern; not a show stopper but you might look into that in the future. Some white smoke (which is unburned fuel) on initial cold start is inevitable. My DK45s usually sends out one smoke puff (maybe 2 sec) and then clears up with temps in the 30s and up.

So it looks like your issue was fuel related. Winter Diesel has fewer of the heavy (long molecular chain) distillates which are harder to burn and more prone to gel at low temps. Of course, this is not an issue for HHO which is typically stored at warmer temps (like underground) and is given ample time and to burn completely in a warm (like indoors) combustion chamber.

liberty2701 · Jan 17, 2016

ritcheyvs said:
That video looks almost normal. The intermittent puffs of smoke lead me to suspect a weak or bad glow plug or poor injector spray pattern; not a show stopper but you might look into that in the future. Some white smoke (which is unburned fuel) on initial cold start is inevitable. My DK45s usually sends out one smoke puff (maybe 2 sec) and then clears up with temps in the 30s and up.

So it looks like your issue was fuel related. Winter Diesel has fewer of the heavy (long molecular chain) distillates which are harder to burn and more prone to gel at low temps. Of course, this is not an issue for HHO which is typically stored at warmer temps (like underground) and is given ample time and to burn completely in a warm (like indoors) combustion chamber.

I checked the glow plugs way back when this thread started. They were ok. I have no way of checking the injectors. I will keep an eye on it. If it went to the dealer for this there would be a charge. The best part about this thread is it informed lots of people about the differences between Hho and Ulsd and how they react in a cold engine. They clearly are different.

powerscol · Jan 17, 2016

Questions I did not see so far.
One - how hard is it to replace injectors?
Two - are there performance injectors out there. By performance ones I mean ones that have flow tested and matched up (equal flow at equal pressure), like can be had for our trucks, not they they flow more.

Where I am going is changing out the injectors something the average person could do? Just wondering.

powerscol · Jan 17, 2016

Questions I did not see so far.
One - how hard is it to replace injectors?
Two - are there performance injectors out there. By performance ones I mean ones that have flow tested and matched up (equal flow at equal pressure), like can be had for our trucks, not that they flow more like some are made to do.

Where I am going is changing out the injectors something the average person could do? Just wondering.

ritcheyvs · Jan 17, 2016

Based on my experience with other Diesels (cars and boats) which were also Bosch (now Zexel) systems:

(1) It's relatively easy to replace injectors if you can get to them. It's usually easiest to completely remove all of the narrow pipes that connect the IP and injectors, preferably as a unit. You may need a special socket for the injectors (not unlike a spark plug socket). On the other hand, you may already have a deep well socket that will work. Installation is straight forward except you should replace the heat shield and gasket (with new) and torque to spec. I have reused heat shields without problems but I'm not familiar with the Kioti gasket. It's important that no dirt, etc. get into the fuel system while it's open.

(2) I am unaware of any performance injectors but you or your shop should use a "pop tester" to (a) ensure the injectors "pop" within spec, (b) ensure all injectors a"pop" at nearly the same pressure, (c) ensure injectors seal tight (no drip), and (d) ensure each injector produces a fine, uniform spray cone.

Injector pop pressure is adjusted by shims on the spring inside each injector. NEVER pop an injector (with a pop tester or the engine IP) with any part of your body near the nozzle or it will "inject" diesel fuel into your body. That would be a bad to fatal thing.

Cleaning may improve a poor spray pattern, either chemically (e.g. Diesel Purge) or mechanically (special cleaning kit with fine wires and brushes). If that doesn't work, the nozzle (inside injector) can be replaced if you can find the right item.

I wouldn't recommend injector rebuilding as a DIY project for a first-timer but here's a writeup on how it's done.

RalphVa · Jan 17, 2016

My 4010 always let off some blue smoke on cold starts. Now my 2025 (which is just a more modern 4010 with 6.5 more hp) does it as well.

Neither one used hardly any oil.

Ralph