Backhoe Need opinions on adding 3-point hitch backhoe

[Fawken]

My 3 point Liberty has been fine for over 3 years. Stump removal is an art and you should use the prying action of the bucket and not pull up with a boom. I removed a large, half dead willow in this manner last year with no problems. Also have pulled a buried water heater and quite a lot of other large hunks of junk that I used to bury in the back pasture. Never thought it would be a problem till we got horses.

 

[California]

The general advice here and from dealers is a 3-point backhoe risks tearing the back out of the transmission or breaking the tractor at the bellhousing. So Not Recommended.

However I have a 3-point hoe, of a model that was sold originally as OEM along with the tractor by Yanmar dealers. The same hoe was also sold by Kubota dealers as OEM Kubota.

Over a couple hundred hours digging in eight years I haven't broken anything. Trenching, removing stumps, ripping out blackberries, and removing blackberry roots that are sometimes 3 ft deep and snuggled right up against my orchard trees. When soil moisture is just right, the backhoe pops out these blackberry roots like pulling carrots. I couldn't do this task with hand tools.

My front loader's sub-frame extends back to the drawbar socket, and I think this has reduced stress on the bellhousing.

(Photo) (Another photo) (My backhoe ID tag, says Kubota) (Backhoe ID tag, says Yanmar. same model hoe. -photo from someone else's ebay sale).


And hiya Bonehead! Its been a long time.

 

[newbury]

<snip>
Scan through the history here and you'll see casting after casting sheared off by a BH on the 3pt--some scary and interesting pics to help decide which is preferential. Most recent was a Kioti post that thankfully didn't get into the reservoir, but has certainly weakened the whole back of the machine.
Don't mean to discourage your 3pt interest--best thing about TBN is being able to learn from others experience, mistakes and troubles before getting into your own. Good luck with the purchase.

I've been here since 2009 and only have seen about three postings that attributed broken casings to 3 pt backhoes. Could you provide links to "casting after casting"?

<snip>

ForumGeneral ForumsParts/RepairsBroken Backhoe Subframe Repair
This is the most current one I have seen.

Like I wrote - could you provide links to postings that attributed broken casings to 3 pt backhoes. Not backhoes on subframes, not just one link, but something to explain the statement of "casting after casting" broken due to 3 PT BACKHOES.

Kubota, and probably many others, used to have a 3 point mount with a special top link.

I believe a strong subframe is needed for a strong backhoe on a small tractor. The way I've swung my tractor around by accident I'm surprised I haven't broken something. But then I've a Woods BH70-X designed for "18 to 40 HP tractors" and that's PTO HP. I had EXPECTED to move it up (and buy a new frame) to a 30 to 40 PTO HP tractor but kind of messed up and my second tractor is a little too big. When I talked to Woods they recommended a heavy duty 3pt top link type mount for my M4700 (42 PTO HP).

 

[IslandTractor]

Like I wrote - could you provide links to postings that attributed broken casings to 3 pt backhoes. Not backhoes on subframes, not just one link, but something to explain the statement of "casting after casting" broken due to 3 PT BACKHOES. Kubota, and probably many others, used to have a 3 point mount with a special top link. I believe a strong subframe is needed for a strong backhoe on a small tractor. The way I've swung my tractor around by accident I'm surprised I haven't broken something. But then I've a Woods BH70-X designed for "18 to 40 HP tractors" and that's PTO HP. I had EXPECTED to move it up (and buy a new frame) to a 30 to 40 PTO HP tractor but kind of messed up and my second tractor is a little too big. When I talked to Woods they recommended a heavy duty 3pt top link type mount for my M4700 (42 PTO HP).

I don't know that there is a classic scientific paper proving that 3 point mounts are dangerous to tractors but it is pretty common knowledge and most manufacturers and dealers recommend against them. As others have stated, it's not like you are guaranteed to hurt your tractor but rather that the potential is there and the availability of subframe mount BHs essentially eliminates the risk of damage to expensive castings. I'm sure many people have used 3PT mount BHs for years without problems especially for tasks like digging trenches or holes that don't put a lot of stress on the mount. Digging stumps and rocks or dragging the tractor would be the types of activities where you'd want to be careful.

 

[Mad Mac]

I thought the support legs were supposed to take most of the stress.

 

[TomSeller]

I thought the support legs were supposed to take most of the stress.

If you are working your backhoe hard, you will lift the backend of the tractor off the ground and off of the support legs. They can't support much when up in the air. If you are steady and smooth and don't have rocks and roots, you very well will do fine with a 3 pt backhoe. There are times when I would have been well served by a seatbelt while operating my Case backhoe. The smaller tractors don't have the GPM to toss around a tractor as much, but they still can over stress the 3 point pins. And has been mentioned, snapping the casting at the 3 point connections is something you don't want to do. They were designed to pull, not jockey the tractor around, lifting it off the ground.

 

[sgtboz]

Most of these critiques of a 3pt mount backhoe is true of every piece of equipment if not used properly...sometimes it's true even if you DO use it properly! "You can break..." "You can overstress..." "You can lift up and drop..."

I have used a 3pt mount backhoe (BL4690) on a commercial basis while mounted to my B7800 tractor. I have trenched in VERY hard soil, I have lifted, I have dug, I have dropped, I have done things not recommended by the manual (not on purpose necessarily but it happens) and I never broke one thing. The digging force on the 3pt mounts are not too dissimilar than the subframe mounts. Of course I absolutely used the reinforced top link and it's easy to see how it spreads the extraordinary loads of the backhoe over more points.

I dug up over 200 trees on a field for a customer recently. They weren't massive oaks but they were the same ones I'd been happy to tackled with a subframe mount backhoe on a similar size tractor. I've dug up trees with rootballs that ended up being bigger than my bucket. It's all about strategy, planning and properly using leverage. There have been times when I can't believe the backhoe DIDN'T break the tractor. Things happen, roots break, you forget to re-set the outriggers, etc. I did all those things and more at one time or another. Just two weeks ago, I dug several cedars (soft wood but BIG trees) over 35ft tall. I started popping the small roots first and worked my way into the main trunk. Rocked it loose by pushing and pulling with the backhoe, then finished it off with the loader. The loader couldn't even lift the root ball but I could sure push it all to the burn pile!

I will forever be a champion of Kubota's excellent engineering on their 3pt mount backhoes. Obviously I can't speak to other brands but if you buy one to use how and within which it was intended, you can't go wrong in my opinion.

 

[Sprinklerman]

Some observations I have made abut the backhoes on tractors . Balto gas and electric ( out local utility) uses kubotas they look to be 35 to 45 hp machines . They rip up asphalt and concrete , dig all types of soil . A friend of mine has a New Holland 1920 with a hoe , with a sub frame . This machine has been run hard and put away wet , it was used on his well drilling business , he hasnt broken anything due to the back hoe. I have a john deere 310 B , its a 1984 regular hoe , now it out powers the tractor hoes . It has done more than its share , I dont use it anymore and am debating selling it .

 

[jhous]

Most of these critiques of a 3pt mount backhoe is true of every piece of equipment if not used properly...sometimes it's true even if you DO use it properly! "You can break..." "You can overstress..." "You can lift up and drop..."

I have used a 3pt mount backhoe (BL4690) on a commercial basis while mounted to my B7800 tractor. I have trenched in VERY hard soil, I have lifted, I have dug, I have dropped, I have done things not recommended by the manual (not on purpose necessarily but it happens) and I never broke one thing. The digging force on the 3pt mounts are not too dissimilar than the subframe mounts. Of course I absolutely used the reinforced top link and it's easy to see how it spreads the extraordinary loads of the backhoe over more points.

I dug up over 200 trees on a field for a customer recently. They weren't massive oaks but they were the same ones I'd been happy to tackled with a subframe mount backhoe on a similar size tractor. I've dug up trees with rootballs that ended up being bigger than my bucket. It's all about strategy, planning and properly using leverage. There have been times when I can't believe the backhoe DIDN'T break the tractor. Things happen, roots break, you forget to re-set the outriggers, etc. I did all those things and more at one time or another. Just two weeks ago, I dug several cedars (soft wood but BIG trees) over 35ft tall. I started popping the small roots first and worked my way into the main trunk. Rocked it loose by pushing and pulling with the backhoe, then finished it off with the loader. The loader couldn't even lift the root ball but I could sure push it all to the burn pile!

I will forever be a champion of Kubota's excellent engineering on their 3pt mount backhoes. Obviously I can't speak to other brands but if you buy one to use how and within which it was intended, you can't go wrong in my opinion.

Thanks for the feedback.
"....use how and within which it was intended..." That's the key. Problem is that unless you have experience with a particular backhoe and tractor, you don't really know what the limits are. I know it would be stupid to try and dig up a 36" diameter oak stump, but a 12" cedar stump .....mmmm, I don't know. So I try. I know I should not jerk or bounce the tractor around. I know I shouldn't take a running start at anything. I know when it bogs down to back off and try it a slightly different way. But I don't know where the weak spots are (and every piece of machinery has them). You and a lot of other guys here have been kind enough to give me the benefit of their experience and it is really helping me. I think a lot (if not all) of it has to do with the basic design of the tractor......and just simply how strong it is. What kind of frame does it have (my brothers New Holland TN55 does not even have a frame. The engine, transmission, and rear end make up the "frame".....and it's massive). I would love to go with a 3-point backhoe because it would save some serious money. But I think on a tractor as small as mine I would probably be asking for trouble since I don't have a lot of experience in the use of one........(I would not hesitate to put one on my brothers tractor now based on the information you and others have given me).

 

[jhous]

The general advice here and from dealers is a 3-point backhoe risks tearing the back out of the transmission or breaking the tractor at the bellhousing. So Not Recommended.

However I have a 3-point hoe, of a model that was sold originally as OEM along with the tractor by Yanmar dealers. The same hoe was also sold by Kubota dealers as OEM Kubota.

Over a couple hundred hours digging in eight years I haven't broken anything. Trenching, removing stumps, ripping out blackberries, and removing blackberry roots that are sometimes 3 ft deep and snuggled right up against my orchard trees. When soil moisture is just right, the backhoe pops out these blackberry roots like pulling carrots. I couldn't do this task with hand tools.

My front loader's sub-frame extends back to the drawbar socket, and I think this has reduced stress on the bellhousing.

(Photo) (Another photo) (My backhoe ID tag, says Kubota) (Backhoe ID tag, says Yanmar. same model hoe. -photo from someone else's ebay sale).


And hiya Bonehead! Its been a long time.

Wow! Sounds like you got your money's worth. I'm beginning to think there may be an element of luck when it comes to backhoes and small tractors. Thanks for the input.

 

[tman1020]

I don't think there's much cost savings By skipping the subframe it's not the most expensive part usually only adds couple hundred dollars. The main cost is in the backhoe itself. The quality ones cost more than the cheap ones just like anything else. However the backhoes that offer a subframe have normally been of the higher quality which puts the price at the higher end of the spectrum. However A subframe can be built for any of them most likely. if it's not offered by the manufacturer you could have one custom-made there's generally not that much to them.

 

[newbury]

I don't think there's much cost savings By skipping the subframe it's not the most expensive part usually only adds couple hundred dollars. The main cost is in the backhoe itself. The quality ones cost more than the cheap ones just like anything else. However the backhoes that offer a subframe have normally been of the higher quality which puts the price at the higher end of the spectrum. However A subframe can be built for any of them most likely. if it's not offered by the manufacturer you could have one custom-made there's generally not that much to them.

Have you actually PRICED a sub frame?
Like I tell my wife - a couple means TWO. If you say "ready in a couple of minutes" and you mean FIVE then the next time this married COUPLE gets in bed we can invite THREE more people.

A quick ebay check shows a subframe for $650.
When I bought my Woods BH70-X in 2009 the Woods kit cost about $1,000.
Here is an email I rec'd when buying:

I have checked my listings for your Kubota B7610 Tractor; and you are correct on the 4 point mounting.

My listing is shown the Models B 7410, B 7610, and the B 7610, requiring the Woods Part Number:1020800.

My price listing is for 2006 and shows a Suggested List Price of $ 1,150.00.

Most Kubota Dealers are Woods Equipment Dealers. I also have a listing of current Woods Dealers.

Recently when I was looking into adding my BH70-X to my M4700 I was told by Woods that it used an "upgraded/heavy Duty top link attachment" or "3 point hitch saf-t-lok kit", (as shown on the left side of the picture) not a sub-frame.

I was quoted $900, still a lot more than "a couple".

If YOU can find the 3 point hitch saf-t-lok kit, or a sub-frame for my Kubota M4700, or know someone who will build one for "a couple of hundred dollars" please pass the information along.

 

[IslandTractor]

I don't think there's much cost savings By skipping the subframe it's not the most expensive part usually only adds couple hundred dollars. The main cost is in the backhoe itself. The quality ones cost more than the cheap ones just like anything else. However the backhoes that offer a subframe have normally been of the higher quality which puts the price at the higher end of the spectrum. However A subframe can be built for any of them most likely. if it's not offered by the manufacturer you could have one custom-made there's generally not that much to them.

I agree the subframe is not the most expensive part of a BH but they do cost more than a couple hundred bucks. Just the weight of steel involved would cost more than that.

 

[Mad Mac]

Well then, if a person has a choice between frame mounted or 3-point hitch mounted backhoes, everything else being equal, how much more is it worth to get a frame mount?

 

[IslandTractor]

Well then, if a person has a choice between frame mounted or 3-point hitch mounted backhoes, everything else being equal, how much more is it worth to get a frame mount?

Fair question if everything else was indeed equal. I'd personally feel safer with the frame mount (why else have manufacturers moved in that direction????). No question many folks have good luck with their 3PT BHs but the industry is really moving towards subframe mounted. I'd put it kind of in the same category as ROPS except that it is for tractor safety not operator safety. Tractors without a ROPS are fine until they're not.

I'd pay the grand or whatever for a factory subframe. Hurts just once.

 

[BlessedMess]

I'd pay the grand or whatever for a factory subframe. Hurts just once.

x2... after digging tree stumps, rocks and bamboo, I'd never chance a 3PH mount. Also, believe it should be possible to get a LS branded J-series BH cheaper than that... may be worth shopping around, as I would assume they are charging full MSRP plus a grand or more in labor/shipping.

 

[tman1020]

Have you actually PRICED a sub frame? Like I tell my wife - a couple means TWO. If you say "ready in a couple of minutes" and you mean FIVE then the next time this married COUPLE gets in bed we can invite THREE more people. A quick ebay check shows a subframe for $650. When I bought my Woods BH70-X in 2009 the Woods kit cost about $1,000. Here is an email I rec'd when buying: Recently when I was looking into adding my BH70-X to my M4700 I was told by Woods that it used an "upgraded/heavy Duty top link attachment" or "3 point hitch saf-t-lok kit", (as shown on the left side of the picture) not a sub-frame. <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/files/ls-tractor-owning-operating/442317-need-opinions-adding-3-point-bh70x-hookup-jpg"/> I was quoted $900, still a lot more than "a couple". If YOU can find the 3 point hitch saf-t-lok kit, or a sub-frame for my Kubota M4700, or know someone who will build one for "a couple of hundred dollars" please pass the information along.

Yes I actually have priced subframes and I have found they vary substantially from brand to brand and for size of machine. My prices are slightly out of date but should be close enough. These prices are based on a 25 to 30 hp frame size tractor when I checked with in the last year and a half. Kelly Backhoes said between 2&3 hundred depending on style of subframe. Ansung ( OEM for Kubota) added 400.00. Bradco added about 1200.00. Woods was all over the place I got two prices in the range of 500.00 and one of 1500.00. Can't remember exactly but I think Rhino wanted around 500.00 and I priced a cheep Chinese made model I cannot remember what brand but it had the Italian valve on the Internet sold as a three point mount with a subframe option they wanted 275.00 but only had select models available. These prices were for at time of purchase not after-the-fact. So yes more than a couple (2). But in the realm of things for the most part in my opinion well worth the extra money especially if it's what the manufacturer recommends.

 

[IslandTractor]

For $500 a subframe is IMO a no brainer.

 

[oldpilgrim]

Other than the time I broke a lift arm on my 3pt bh, and the other time where I ended up face down in a deep hole when the factory supplied top link broke on my 3 pt bh, I disliked the way the hoe swung back and forth on the 3pt arms as I could never get the arms tight enough not to move side to side a bit.

Even a little side to side motion in the lift arms translates to a lot of movement at the working end of the hoe, especially when you have to really reach out to max length. If you dig a big hole, the movement doesn't really make much difference, but trenching is another story... trying to get that bucket in a hole only as wide as the bucket can be frustrating.

The solid mounted hoe on my Mahindra 3016 makes digging a pleasure.

 

[Mad Mac]

This is a very useful thread, thank you one and all. Let me ask another question. How difficult is it to change out the subframe mounted backhoe compared to a 3 point hitch. We would be changing out our Mahindra 5555 (the old 30 Series) at least twice a year.