Any news on gas engine CUTS?

[DarkBlack]

Lol. Lol. Darkblack . . . you really neef to get coordinated with the other gas engine believers because you're telling conflicting stories. One guy tells us a gas engine 35 hp would be the same displacement as my Iseki. But then when I say that a 35 hp gas engine with equivalent cooling capacity would be more expensive to produce . .. then that conversation goes quiet. Now you're telling us another story.

Go out and invent the gas engine for a scut . . because nobody has seen one . . Until then you've got nothing but guesses and weak assumptions.

Why do you keep trying to put down people like me, about points that aren't being debated with you?

 

[MossRoad]

Any news on gas engine CUTS?

Nope!

 

[hutchman]

"We don't have GDI SCUT/CUT engines yet because they would require Alien technology and we haven't received them yet from the gods"

 

[hutchman]

All you GDI tractor dreamers, start a thread to gather interest in your vision and start a petition with thousands of interested folks and then approach a vendor with your idea or pool your resources and start your own company making GDI tractor engines.

I'm not interested in buying one but that's OK, I'm sure there are others that will. Steal a 4cyl GDI out of a KIA and put a rev limiter on it and make a prototype to test with ... hey it's still America (for a little while longer) so if you have a better mouse trap ... get cracking!

 

[AxleHub]

Why do you keep trying to put down people like me, about points that aren't being debated with you?

Well DarkBlack, exactly what are you debating? Debate is a process of focus points tied together with a string of logic and facts in a related pattern.

You can't "debate" something that has no basis in logical connection. If you want to debate which engine maker is the best between Iseki,kubota,yanmar, etc. Then you go ahead because each of those is a diesel engine builder. Same is true for honda, Hyundai, yamaha, bombardier, and Kawasaki because they are all gas builders. But you can't compare and debate an existing engine against one that does not exist and has not existed . . it isn't even theoretical conditions.

The closest example that even remotely could be debated is the one I provided of the kubota GR2020 and GR2120 because they operate by modern methods on the same frame and for the same purposes.

What you think you are doing and what you actually are doing are two greatly different things. You can't compare Ted Williams and Fran Tarkenton . . but you think gas (other applications) and diesel (tractor) are comparable or debatable.

 

[SPYDERLK]

That's torque, not HP. 25 is 25 is 25 period.

The term we need is tractability. ... Analogous to area under the horsepower curve. Thats where diesels shine ... other than being able to work at their peak longer than a gas engine.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Only on paper...in theory... as I'm sure you know....

A 25hp diesel will have more real-life, usable power than a 25hp gasser due to a diesel making its power at a lower rpm and making much more torque. Different engines will make their power in different rpm ranges depending on the application it is built for.

So in pracrice, 25hp is not 25hp is 25hp.

Yep.

Nope.

Nope.

 

[buickanddeere]

Now I want to go to the next lack of logic.

Posters are talking back and forth about gas engines could compete with diesel engines for use in scut and cut tractors.

Yet throughout this long winding thread . . . the use of auto, truck, small engine, atv, and now fork lifts have been used as interchangable examples. They are not interchangable nor are they comparable.

The fact is . . no production gas tractor engines have or are currently produced or being produced in the last 15 years for use in scut or cut tractors by any major or proven tractor company in the world . None . . Zip . . Zero.

The only logic that exists is . . all these many engine builder companies either can not produce a gas product to compete because of cost or because of capability to be comparable to diesel . . . or they don't have the intellectual capacity to defeat the hurdles that the gas engine posters seem to think they posses themselves.

So this thread battles on without logical reason and massive artificailly created proof and "lack of facts" and mis direction efforts.

So the obvious question is then . . . why isn't one or all of these gas engine proponents developing what no one else has if it is so easy and obvious to them?

The answer is . . they just like to argue when facts evade them and their skills to invent a competing product are lacking.

You missed the whole point entirely.

 

[buickanddeere]

No, it doesn't make the same peak power, as the gas engine, when compared $ for $ or lb for lb. That's a common diesel reasoning fallacy. Your comparing a much heavier, much more expensive diesel to a lighter, cheaper gas engine. Not fair. If you compare engines of the same price or weight, you would find they are quite comparable. The main drawback to a gas engine is it throws more wasted heat energy than the diesel, and the fuel is flammable/unstable.
You can get a V8 gas engine of the same price or weight as a 3, or 4 cylinder diesel. The equal $, or weight V8 can be geared to run 'just above idle' and would make the same power as the smaller diesel. At that low RPM the gas engine could last 'forever'. The big drawback...again..is the big gas engine would use more fuel.

We should make the point that per btu of fuel. A gas DI is very nearly efficient as a diesel at full power. A part load the DI gasser has fuel efficiency greater than the Tier IV diesel. No particulate filter to load up either when putting around. When purchasing fuel is btu's per dollar that count, not gallons per hour.

 

[buickanddeere]

Any news on gas engine CUTS?

Nope!

Wait for the Tier V emissions.

 

[MossRoad]

So what are you saying? 25hp isn't 25hp?

 

[buickanddeere]

"We don't have GDI SCUT/CUT engines yet because they would require Alien technology and we haven't received them yet from the gods"

They are operating right now in light highway vehicles, yard equipment and off road recreational vehicles.

 

[buickanddeere]

The term we need is tractability. ... Analogous to area under the horsepower curve. Thats where diesels shine ... other than being able to work at their peak longer than a gas engine.

Even the old carbed, low rpm, short camshaft timed gas tractor engines had torque curves as good as or better than the diesel version in the same chassis. It's the short cam timing that makes a diesel a low rpm engine as it starves for airflow when reved up. A short cam makes a gasser torquy too.
A car engine with longer cam timing for higher rpm peak HP at the expense of very low rpm torque. A diesel will also pull well into the 4000-5000rpm range if built with a long duration cam. Problem is it will be a lousy starter as the long overlap prevents building high cylinder pressure and thus heat at cranking rpms.

 

[buickanddeere]

Where has logic gone on this thread?

I'm amazed at how this thread has failed to police itself of the quality of information TBN is normally known for.

Lets start wirh an easy one . . the price of diesel/fuel oil.

1. The price of diesel is down in big ways from just 13 months ago because oil across the globe is no longer a shortage product. The technology for finding and developing has plummeted in price and escalated in capability. As a result we've seen a paradigm shift at the same level of the original diesel engine switching from kerosene fuel to diesel for use.

2. China was by far the largest consumer/user of diesel during a 12 year period of artificial growth from artificial construction that is not sustainable. That transition reverse started 1 year ago and has continued to reduce ever since at a very rapid pace.

3. The quality of oil now developing in the US market has dramatically changed and improved thanks to the newest Bakken shale discoveries. Literally stated . . some of the newest discoveries have no match in other areas of the world in terms of quality of oil. You can expect that diesel capabilities and engine builders will be further improving performance and environmental benefit as the next few years progress by leaps and bounds.

The three points above create a radical upcoming change in the benefits and uses of petro fuels in the US. Diesel will be a huge benefitter as this developes and future "tier xx" choices will take great advantage of it.

Meanwhile both our enemies and our supposed allies in a number of countries are making great and grand efforts to stop our country from maturing any and all of these opportunities and to financially hurt or crush the firms developing these discoveries.

The concept that winter will return oil to its prior super high price and method . . Is either completely uninformed or intentionally blindingly incorrect to mislead and misdirect opinion.

The US capacity to produce fuels is now stunning and ultra quality developing and our enemies and some of our "allies" will do anything to stop it imo . . including selling at a loss for long periods of time or even worse.

Anybody who has watched crude oil prices since crude oil was first sold to refiners. The price swings from low to high, to low to high, low to high. Anybody who thinks crude oil prices will now remain eternally low is in for a surprise.

 

[buickanddeere]

Engine ? TOYOTA INDUSTRIAL ENGINE

https://ai-engines.com/industrial-engines/ie-kubota/spark-ignited-series

https://ai-engines.com/industrial-engines//ie-honda

Industrial Introduction

 

[hutchman]

They are operating right now in light highway vehicles, yard equipment and off road recreational vehicles.

Hint: My post said "SCUT/CUT". I know full well where they are and where they aren't ... that's kind of the point of THE LAST 44 PAGES!

 

[Loadstar]

http://www.pittauto.com/customer/piauel/specpages/FOR DSG_423.pdf

I really like that engine. It is a tough engine with simple controls. I have thought about it's reliable ignition and fuel delivery a lot when looking at older gas tractors. They are cheap to operate more simple to maintain and stout. I have wondered before this thread why something similar has not been in a tractor. It makes it in other equipment well. I just don't think the cut market is as tough and demanding as people want to believe. There are tougher drive applications than a tractor. Gas, LPG, LNG, diesel are all found doing tougher jobs than tilling a garden. I really dont like the direction of emissions right now in diesels and I believe there will be a generation gap in diesel engines. A generation of extremely less desirable engines due to their poor record straddled with their emissions equipment. I wont own it and will patch my junk together diesel and gas due to the string of less reliable overpriced diesel engines on the market.

 

[mo1]

Fork truck engines are RPM and power limited so that they last a long time and don't fail. For example, Toyota's current Tier IV 3.0L turbocharged 4-cylinder gasoline engine puts out a max 93hp at 2550rpm. They last a long time because they aren't making much power for their size, and they don't get turned very fast.

Still, that Toyota wouldn't necessarily be a good tractor engine. A Deere 5093E has the same 93hp Net, but it's 4.5L (and turbo-charged) at a similar 2,400rpm....50% larger to get the same net power. That's because it has to be to turn 2,400rpm for hours on end, and last for years on end.

You inadvertently confirmed what a lot of us have been saying all along- one can certainly make a gasoline engine engine "last a long time and [not] fail." The key is to keep the operating speed to a pretty reasonable level, which is why engine speed of industrial engines is much the same for both diesel and gasoline engines- 1500 to 3500 rpm, not the peak operating speed of 6000-8000 rpm of an automotive engine. The Toyota engine running at 2550 rpm will run for a very long time. That same engine rated to run at twice that speed would likely have a lifespan of a few hundred hours at full load at full speed but probably make 2.5-3x the power. That's why gasoline engines designed to run heavy constant loads are governed far slower than engines designed for lighter intermittent duty, such as in a passenger car. That speed is nearly always in the 1500-3500 rpm range. Even engines which can go faster typically are spending most of their time at that same speed. Look at your tach in your car when you are cruising- your engine is turning at 2000 rpm, not 6000 rpm.

Lol. Lol. Darkblack . . . you really neef to get coordinated with the other gas engine believers because you're telling conflicting stories. One guy tells us a gas engine 35 hp would be the same displacement as my Iseki. But then when I say that a 35 hp gas engine with equivalent cooling capacity would be more expensive to produce . .. then that conversation goes quiet. Now you're telling us another story.

That was me, and I took a brief moment to reply because my job has been very busy. The engine I mentioned is smaller displacement than your Iseki, 999 cc vs. ~1100 cc. It makes about as much torque but a lot more power. I can't find the price list for your Iseki, but the gasoline engine I mentioned is much less expensive in an otherwise identical finished product than a roughly comparable small diesel engine. Exmark uses the Kohler ECVs among many others in their ZTRs and they offer both the ECVs and Kubota's D902 three-cylinder diesel in the Lazer Z series top-of-the-line zero turn mowers. Exmark doesn't list the D902's horsepower but they run it up to 3850 rpm ; it makes 23.0 gross (not net) HP in the BX2370 turning at 3200 rpm. The ECV980 (38 gross HP) in the Lazer Z with a 72" deck has an MSRP of a $16,205 while the D902-powered model has an MSRP of $19,757. The diesel-powered model is clearly and significantly more expensive, cooling and all.

Go out and invent the gas engine for a scut . . because nobody has seen one . . Until then you've got nothing but guesses and weak assumptions.

The reason why this hasn't been done was mentioned previously- there likely would not be enough of a marginal increase in total dollar sales to justify the engineering, qualification, and carrying costs of the additional model. There likely aren't too many people that would refuse to buy a diesel CUT/SCUT and would only buy a gasoline CUT/SCUT; the ones that would prefer a gasoline-powered unit would still be willing to buy a diesel-powered unit and currently do so. The gasoline-powered CUT/SCUT sales thus would thus really only subtract from diesel model sales and with their lower average selling prices, cause total sales figures to drop. So you have lower sales numbers AND higher engineering, qualification, and carrying costs for the second model line. Quite a payoff indeed. That is why you don't see them. That says absolutely nothing about the merits of the technology or equipment, only about the current market economics.

Trying to start your own company to make ANY new tractor would be suicide as well, also due to the current economy. The market is also very saturated with a bunch of different manufacturers in the game. Trying to be a tiny upstart competing with giant competitors like Deere/Yanmar, LG (LS -> CaseIH/New Holland's CUT maker), AGCO, Kubota, Mahindra, and others would be a huge challenge even if you had a superior product. It would be billions upfront before you can even think about seeing a dime in returns. Inertia wins out over innovation every time; just look at any other market sector.

The term we need is tractability. ... Analogous to area under the horsepower curve. Thats where diesels shine ... other than being able to work at their peak longer than a gas engine.

I think you are really trying to say that the flatness of the torque curve is really what we are looking for. A peaky engine with no torque until high speeds is not very tractable; one with a lot of torque from down low in the RPM range is very tractable. The torque curve is affected by a bunch of factors such as compression ratio, cam profile and timing, injection timing, bore vs. stroke ratio, intended operating speed range, the particular setup of your forced induction (if present), etc. etc. You can certainly make a gasoline engine with an extremely flat torque curve which would be better than a similar-sized diesel's. Just look at a modern undersquare multiple-small-diameter-turbo DI gasoline engine. Torque curves are essentially a straight line on them from not much above idle on through redline due to how the turbos are set up.

 

[mo1]

http://www.pittauto.com/customer/piauel/specpages/FOR DSG_423.pdf

I really like that engine. It is a tough engine with simple controls. I have thought about it's reliable ignition and fuel delivery a lot when looking at older gas tractors. They are cheap to operate more simple to maintain and stout. I have wondered before this thread why something similar has not been in a tractor. It makes it in other equipment well. I just don't think the cut market is as tough and demanding as people want to believe. There are tougher drive applications than a tractor. Gas, LPG, LNG, diesel are all found doing tougher jobs than tilling a garden. I really dont like the direction of emissions right now in diesels and I believe there will be a generation gap in diesel engines. A generation of extremely less desirable engines due to their poor record straddled with their emissions equipment. I wont own it and will patch my junk together diesel and gas due to the string of less reliable overpriced diesel engines on the market.

The real interesting thing is in comparing the specifications of that engine as an industrial engine vs. its specifications as an automotive engine. That engine you listed is the 2.3 L version of the Mazda L series four-cylinder aluminum-blocked, port EFI, DOHC engines. My mother's first-gen Fusion has this exact engine. The industrial specs have it governed at 3200 rpm, making about 80 hp and 130 ft-lb torque. The engine is rated at 160 hp and 156 ft-lb in the Fusion, and the redline is around 7000 rpm.

 

[hutchman]

Engine ? TOYOTA INDUSTRIAL ENGINE

https://ai-engines.com/industrial-engines/ie-kubota/spark-ignited-series

https://ai-engines.com/industrial-engines//ie-honda

Industrial Introduction

Hint: In that Toyota link the word "Application" means what they recommend it for. Compare the "Application" of the gassers to their diesel offering. I'll help you more with another hint ... none say "Construction or Agriculture"!. I don't know but I think that might mean something.