Any news on gas engine CUTS?

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/ Any news on gas engine CUTS? #181  
Why is it that when I point out you make a glaring mistake (like say I haven't posted something I have) you try to reverse it?

Your "theory" is wrong, and before you even stated it, I disproved it (you didn't read that either, evidently)....I countered what I knew you were going to say with actual facts, not wild theories.

You're saying diesel prices will stay high because refineries want to make more money, regardless of their cost to produce. That's a ridiculous statement considering what we've seen the last few months. We have proof, not wild theories, in the recent few months. Gas prices have been slashed nearly in half because their cost to produce dropped significantly. If your theory was valid, they wouldn't have lowered their prices, but they did.

Taxes are the big difference in price between gas and diesel? Are you sure of that? Do you even know what the tax differences are between the two? Approximately $.06 per gallon....that's it. Proof:

Motor Fuel Taxes

The refineries upgrades were paid off between 2009 and 2011? Oh wait, that's according to a model you claim, not actual proof, or facts. Funny, but ULSD wasn't finished being implemented until 2010, so how did they pay it off before, or immediately after making those changes? Don't bother trying, you can't answer that.

Diesel demand has been lower in the U.S. than in the rest of the world for a long time, so the rest of the world subsidized the upgrades needed for ULSD faster. Since 2004 the demand for diesel has grown roughly 30% in the U.S., but production has only increased about 15%. We call that economics....supply and demand. The refineries have had high demand, and increased operating expenses....those both lead to higher costs, but only temporarily. When they catch up to demand, and finish paying off the upgrades, diesel will be back to being lower than gasoline, just like it is in the rest of the world. We may not be on the same timeline as the rest of the world, but our math isn't any different than theirs, so the same thing will happen. Some light reading if you want some actual facts:
https://blog.gasbuddy.com/posts/Why-diesel-costs-more/1715-485481-832.aspx

A diesel Cruze costs less to purchase. Fuel costs will vary with the price of the fuel. Future service costs are still undetermined....we'll only know that after they get some years on them, but folks who actually understand modern DI engines have pointed out all the extra stuff on them that would be bad on a tractor, so it's still a pretty weak comparison.

The funny thing is that you're talking about light duty vehicle, and you may be one of the few people who think that applies to tractors. When I'm doing something as boring as mowing I'm running my tractor for hours and hours at PTO speed....not even remotely similar to how a true light duty work cycle would be.

Maybe you putter around with your machines, I do work with mine.

How is it that diesel prices at the pump have not fallen as low and as fast as gasoline prices as crude oil dropped.
The Cruze diesel is more expensive to purchase than the gas.
Even a low hour useage machine such as a CUT will use less $$$ per hour on gasoline than diesel . Due to gasoline being cheaper per btu at the pump than diesel. The DI gas also has much higher thermal efficiency that a carburated gas and now nearly matches the diesel's power out per btu in.
 
/ Any news on gas engine CUTS? #182  
My co-worker has one of those problems and the Car's head gasket is also seeping. He jumped a fuel temperature sensor which tricks the ECM into extra fuel delivery .

It's a design defect in this case for sure and it looks like VW is at least doing something to help. Probably many more coming so I'm sure it will go down in history as an epic fail.

The older designs could get some big tuning gains fairly safely (they're mostly for econnomy, not performance) but the newer designs don't have as much margin I don't think. You're really opening yourself (in my opinion) to potential big expensive problems tuning these new engines.

I have Cosworth ARP racing studs holding my head down. If I had any more boost I'd be warping head and trashing head gaskets too.
 
/ Any news on gas engine CUTS? #184  
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/ Any news on gas engine CUTS? #186  
That's torque, not HP. 25 is 25 is 25 period.

Only on paper...in theory... as I'm sure you know....

A 25hp diesel will have more real-life, usable power than a 25hp gasser due to a diesel making its power at a lower rpm and making much more torque. Different engines will make their power in different rpm ranges depending on the application it is built for.

So in pracrice, 25hp is not 25hp is 25hp.
 
/ Any news on gas engine CUTS? #187  
If both engines were dino tested to make 25 hp then they will perform equal work. Torque and rpm are interchangeable with gearing. My old MM gasser is red lined at 1275 rpm and has plenty of lugging ability. A modern gas engine could be optimized for tractor use. It's mostly a function of cam timing. Just my opinion.
 
/ Any news on gas engine CUTS? #188  
Only on paper...in theory... as I'm sure you know....

A 25hp diesel will have more real-life, usable power than a 25hp gasser due to a diesel making its power at a lower rpm and making much more torque. Different engines will make their power in different rpm ranges depending on the application it is built for.

So in practice, 25hp is not 25hp is 25hp.

Somebody posted one time a condensed article what range of efficiency of plain V belt drives can vary from the ideal to a worn over tightened belt on a worn set of pulleys. iirc something from the mid 95 ish % range down into the 60-70% range ???
 
/ Any news on gas engine CUTS? #189  
How is it that diesel prices at the pump have not fallen as low and as fast as gasoline prices as crude oil dropped.

Again, it's economics...supply and demand. The demand for diesel is greater than the supply, so the prices haven't fallen as much. They still have dropped a significant amount (roughly 25%), which continues to show the concept of refineries keeping prices high just to make more profit doesn't reflect reality.

The DI gas also has much higher thermal efficiency that a carburated gas and now nearly matches the diesel's power out per btu in.

Again, you keep saying this, and it's false. The best DI gas engines are better, but still a long ways from matching the best diesel engines. The best diesel engines are around 50% thermal efficiency (power output per btu in), and the best DI gassers are around 35% thermal efficiency. That gap (15%) has been pretty consistent over time, and there is no way around it. Gassers would have to see a 30% increase in efficiency to match the best diesel....not likely.
 
/ Any news on gas engine CUTS? #190  
Only on paper...in theory... as I'm sure you know....

A 25hp diesel will have more real-life, usable power than a 25hp gasser due to a diesel making its power at a lower rpm and making much more torque. Different engines will make their power in different rpm ranges depending on the application it is built for.

So in pracrice, 25hp is not 25hp is 25hp.

Nope.
 
/ Any news on gas engine CUTS? #191  
Torque rise when lugged is often mistaken for power. It's why a 2HP electric motor will momentary carry a 5HP load and make a 4HP internal combustion engine look like a wimp even though the 4HP ICE can perform twice the work per hour than the 2HP electric.
 
/ Any news on gas engine CUTS? #192  
It seems that some people want to compare a turbo intercooled diesel to a motorcycle engine??? What next, challenge your Grandma to an arm wrestle?
If they want to compare gas to diesel it should be something similar like a natural aspirated 5.7 Olds, 6.2 Chev or 6.5 Chev vs 5.3 DI gas Chev.
Of a Ford Eco-Boost 2.7 or 3.5 vs a similar sized turbo diesel such as the Fiat Chrysler VM Motori A 630 DOHC .
 
/ Any news on gas engine CUTS? #193  
It seems that some people want to compare a turbo intercooled Cummins 6BT diesel to a gas motorcycle engine??? Or a John Deere model G vs a John Deere 720 diesel in fuel efficiency .What next, challenge your Grandma to an arm wrestle?
If they want to compare gas to diesel it should be something similar like a natural aspirated 5.7 Olds, 6.2 Chev or 6.5 Chev vs 5.3 DI gas Chev. We will even spot the diesel a few points and compare them to a Chev 5.3 port injection.
Of a Ford Eco-Boost 2.7 or 3.5 vs a similar sized turbo diesel such as the Fiat Chrysler VM Motori A 630 DOHC .
 
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/ Any news on gas engine CUTS? #195  
Here is the last gas powered tractor that I am aware of.

TractorData.com Cub Cadet 5252 tractor engine information

Here is the diesel version with 2hp less.

TractorData.com Cub Cadet 5234D tractor engine information

The gas version was $2,299 less.

Now someone needs to find fuel use charts for them so we can compare.

I just realized the 5252 was 2WD.

There was a 5254 that was 4WD like the 5234D and it was $600 less than the diesel version. It had a liquid cooled Kawasaki.

TractorData.com Cub Cadet 5254 tractor information
 
/ Any news on gas engine CUTS? #196  
No doubt a similar hp diesal has more torque then a gasoline engine. But we used a regular old super farmall M, 4 cylinder gasoline engine that we've used since the early 50's. Don't do anything special with it at all, and runs like a top. We also use j5 bombardiers, 6 cylinder flathead 6 that are extremely torquey and pull really hard where a farm tractor would only dream of and do nothing special with those, they are 40+ years old. Gas engines seem fine to me. We aslo use a mahindra 2816 diesel. No real preference. I would prefer the gas in the j5.
 
/ Any news on gas engine CUTS? #197  
No doubt a similar hp diesal has more torque then a gasoline engine. But we used a regular old super farmall M, 4 cylinder gasoline engine that we've used since the early 50's. Don't do anything special with it at all, and runs like a top. We also use j5 bombardiers, 6 cylinder flathead 6 that are extremely torquey and pull really hard where a farm tractor would only dream of and do nothing special with those, they are 40+ years old. Gas engines seem fine to me. We aslo use a mahindra 2816 diesel. No real preference. I would prefer the gas in the j5.

Other than fuel use in GPH, the gas versions of the same chassis in diesel pulled just as much .
In fact remember how gutless the Olds 5.7 , Chev 6.2 diesel and the Chev 6.5 diesel are. A Chev 5.3 will walk all over them with more power, torque, greater reliability and lower fuel cost per mile.
 
/ Any news on gas engine CUTS? #198  
Other than fuel use in GPH, the gas versions of the same chassis in diesel pulled just as much .
In fact remember how gutless the Olds 5.7 , Chev 6.2 diesel and the Chev 6.5 diesel are. A Chev 5.3 will walk all over them with more power, torque, greater reliability and lower fuel cost per mile.

You keep saying people shouldn't compare engines of different vintages, but you continue to do that exact thing. The Olds 5.7 came out in 1978. The Chevy 5.2 and 5.7 came out in 1982.

The DI Chevy 5.3 came out in 2013....that's 31 years difference. Heck, even the non-DI versions of the 5.3 Chevy are at the very least 17 years newer than the other engines you mentioned.

Apples-to-oranges.

Talking about 30 year old car and light truck engines when the topic is tractor engines is silly. Cars and light trucks putter around at a fraction of their rated power and torque. Tractors operate at or near rated power, or a significant portion of it (PTO speed) for hours on end.

Nothing you say will change that even a CUT's duty cycle is significantly different than road cars and trucks. Nothing you can say will change that the best diesels have around 15% better thermal efficiency than the best gas engines.

If tractor manufacturers thought they could turn a profit, and make a decent product, with a gasser SCUT/CUT, they would have already done so. There is no way that they didn't have that discussion when Tier III and Tier IV emissions rules were proposed for off-road diesel engines. Nothing happened with that for a reason.
 
/ Any news on gas engine CUTS? #199  
Ventrac still uses some Gas engines - I have the 4231 Gas Liquid Cooled and the new 4500 series offers a B&S and a Kawasaki 31 Hp. Ventrac is low center of gravity, articulated, and made in Ohio.

Here is the last gas powered tractor that I am aware of.

TractorData.com Cub Cadet 5252 tractor engine information

Here is the diesel version with 2hp less.

TractorData.com Cub Cadet 5234D tractor engine information

The gas version was $2,299 less.

Now someone needs to find fuel use charts for them so we can compare.
 
/ Any news on gas engine CUTS? #200  
Looking at the mileage of the same vehicle with a DI gas vs a diesel. The thermal efficiency must be similar between DI gas and diesel. As the diesel barely makes the 13% greater mileage it should with diesel's greater btu per gallon.
You are mixed up in your numbers between percent differnce btu per gallon and percent combustion efficnecy .
Since we operate the vehicle on cost per mile. The greater btu per dollar in gasoline and the lower vehicle/machine price makes the DI gas is the winner .
Manufactures sell where they can make money. As the highway vehicle, boat, snowmobile , motor cycle , ATV , RTV and small equipment purchasers want economical power. They purchase DI gas. There are some people stuck on the idea that since diesel was better from 1920 to 2006. They are not changing their minds or going to accept that thier pet diesel is threatened. They have invested years of telling people and purchasing diesels . They can't loose face and change their minds now.

Take a couple of minutes and read about the Otto Cycle, combustion and efficiency.

http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f8/deer10_johansson.pdf
 
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