Any news on gas engine CUTS?

[AxleHub]

The service interval on my gasoline-powered pickup engine is also approximately 10,000 miles. The engine has an oil life meter and it will allow for up to 10,000 miles between changes. The interval ends up being either one year or 10,000 miles, whichever comes first, so in practice it's 10,000 miles. Newer gasoline engines are coil on plug and don't have spark plug wires. Spark plugs also get changed only every 100,000-150,000 miles and cost less than a hundred bucks for a set of good ones for a V8 engine.

My truck also has an oil prismatic evaluator on it . . and I know of no one that gets 10,000 miles before it triggers. Typically they will sense oil contaminant deterioration between 3500 and 5500 miles based on driving style. And whether it is synthetic oil or conventionsl won't alter those conditions because it senses contaminants . . not oil destruction. I used to communicate with the enginerr who designed the system for GM and it is a wonderful system. On synthetic you can switch filters and your back in business.

 

[hutchman]

Mobile 1 is sold at Walmart and they claim 15k mile OCI:

I have been doing 10k mile OCIs on my '97 Volvo V90 for the last few years with no ill effects, I just change the oil in Nov when I install my snowtires.

Aaron Z

I know a bunch of oils make the claim but wasn't aware of any Mfrs. calling for it ... but I just looked and Toyota looks like they recently started recommending 10K OCI's. I wasn't aware of that. Most others are still around 7-8K depending on use conditions.

 

[AxleHub]

You don't address the major issue I brought up, which is overall cost of operation. You avoid it and only mention extreme long-tail longevity and specific fuel consumption. Maybe those are the most important to you, but there are certainly other considerations which may be more important for others.



Not really. Routine oil and filter changes are similar in frequency with small filter-equipped gasoline vs. small diesel engines at about every 100-200 hours. Automotive diesels and gasoline engines have similar service intervals. The difference is that the diesels' filters are more expensive and they require much more oil than a gasoline engine.

I think what you are talking about is time until you need a rebuild, which is going to be longer for diesels. But that is a very, very long time (essentially "forever") on a small engine that gets only a hundred hours or so a year worth of use. Again, this is grossly different from an engine in a team-operated semi that may put on 100 hours in a week.
.

Mo1, haven't you figured out yet that I'm not going to fall for that strawman debate style? And don't act like you don't know what I mean.

You're talking about tractors . . Then you switch to autos which is not the topic and then diesel trucks.

I've yet to see a gas engine in any form of tractor that goes longer than 100 hours after the 1st 50 hour servicing. But many scuts go from the 50 hour service to then a 200 etc..

Similarly you act like time to a rebuild is like "forever" I think you stated . . . But much closer to the truth is what gas engines on tractors or smaller equipment have as a lifetime to rebuild and that 5 to 7 years is the average while diesela in scuts is in the 13 to 16 year average . . .and that my friend is real cost of ownership.

But what is most glaring is your complete avoidance of telling us a comparable gas engine to my Iseki under the conditions I establushed in that post. Its just silence from Mo1 on that naming of the comparable gas engine.

Surely by naming that engine and where we can go for a demonstration . . you would cement the debate for yourself. Yet you haven't. Could it be because there isn't a general production gas engine that can or is even close to capable of matching the Iseki diesel 3 cylinder tractor engine under the standard tractor needs definitions I used ????

Name it for us Mo1.

 

[mo1]

I'm not saying I don't believe you. I'm saying I don't know or have heard of anyone doing 10K OCI's with a gas anything. I don't know or have heard of any shops that advocate such a thing either. Maybe with some special Uber oil from Amsoil but not stuff mere mortals buy at walmart.

My pickup is a 2011 F-150 with the 5.0 Coyote V8. I change my own oil and generally use the Motorcraft synthetic blend 5W-20, since that is generally the least expensive 5W-20 oil and the engine requires 5W-20 like pretty well every other Ford twincam engine I have ever seen. 5W-20 isn't rare any more like it was a dozen years ago but it still isn't nearly as common as 5W-30 or heavier oils. I get either one year or 10,000 miles between changes as my service notes in the owner's manual show. The service interval is longer than other gasoline engines I've used but the oil if anything looks less dirty than a typical gasoline engine's oil at the usual 5000 mile service interval. The truck also has a trip computer which calculates hours and generally an oil change occurs around 250-300 hours.

Mo1, haven't you figured out yet that I'm not going to fall for that strawman debate style? And don't act like you don't know what I mean.

You're talking about tractors . . Then you switch to autos which is not the topic and then diesel trucks.

I've yet to see a gas engine in any form of tractor that goes longer than 100 hours after the 1st 50 hour servicing. But many scuts go from the 50 hour service to then a 200 etc..

There are no remotely modern gasoline engines in anything larger than a garden tractor/riding lawnmower, so there is nothing to directly compare against for a SCUT/CUT. That's why the multiple references to passenger cars and pickup trucks, where there are direct comparators to discuss the general differences between diesel and gasoline engines.

The Kohler ECV series engines I mentioned are probably the closest comparators to what would be considered a modern small gasoline SCUT/CUT engine, since development of actual gasoline small tractor engines stopped at the latest in the 1960s with a points-and-carb system. The ECVs have a 100 hour oil change interval but a 200 hour oil filter change interval. I looked at the Deere 1 series owner's manual as Deere is the only manufacturer that freely posts its owner's manuals. They state a 200 hour oil + filter change interval for both the 1023E and 1025R. This is also the same interval my 1987 Massey-Ferguson 1030L lists (had to buy the manual.) Larger diesels may have longer service intervals- my father's 6.7 L six-cylinder DI turbo NH 6030 has a 600 hour service interval but only if you use synthetic oil (and IIRC it takes over 3 gallons of it.)

Similarly you act like time to a rebuild is like "forever" I think you stated . . . But much closer to the truth is what gas engines on tractors or smaller equipment have as a lifetime to rebuild and that 5 to 7 years is the average while diesela in scuts is in the 13 to 16 year average . . .and that my friend is real cost of ownership.

We've used roughly similarly-powered gasoline engines in riding lawnmowers/garden tractors (mainly a bunch of ~650 cc carbed V-twin Kohlers) and run then for about 10 years (approx 1500 hours) and none of them ever needed rebuilt. None of them ever even burned very much oil. One leaked a good amount of it, but none burned much of it.

The highest-hour unit I've ever operated is my little MF 1030L, which has about 3500 hours on it. If I can decipher old man cursive in the original incorrect model owner's manual, it was rebuilt at some unknown point in the past due to a head gasket failure. The engine does show signs of having been R&Red at some point based on the paint around the holes mounting it to the frame being scraped off by the bolt heads.

But what is most glaring is your complete avoidance of telling us a comparable gas engine to my Iseki under the conditions I establushed in that post. Its just silence from Mo1 on that naming of the comparable gas engine.

The Iseki engine in your tractor is a 1.1 liter engine, which is larger than the small (generally 800 cc and less) low-RPM gasoline engines but way too small to compare to the generally automotive engine-based industrial engines such are used in LP gensets and such. Your Iseki engine makes 43.8 ft-lb torque at its rated power of 3000 rpm. I suspect the Iseki's peak torque is about 50 ft-lb based on other similar small diesel engines' performance as I cannot find the exact peak figures for the Iseki engine. That would make something like the Kohler ECV880 (824 cc) with 32 hp and 51 ft-lb torque a grossly comparable competitor. If we are comparing based on displacement, the largest Kohler ECV made, the 999 cc ECV980 with 35 hp and 53 ft-lb torque would be closer.

Surely by naming that engine and where we can go for a demonstration . . you would cement the debate for yourself. Yet you haven't. Could it be because there isn't a general production gas engine that can or is even close to capable of matching the Iseki diesel 3 cylinder tractor engine under the standard tractor needs definitions I used ????

Name it for us Mo1.

I did and it would be very interesting to see how it would actually play out. I am truly curious as we have not seen a good head-to-head of modern gasoline vs. modern diesel engines in small tractors and thus the giant long thread full of speculation rather than a "Brand X model X with gas engine vs. Brand X model X with diesel engine" thread.

 

[mo1]

I'm not saying I don't believe you. I'm saying I don't know or have heard of anyone doing 10K OCI's with a gas anything. I don't know or have heard of any shops that advocate such a thing either. Maybe with some special Uber oil from Amsoil but not stuff mere mortals buy at walmart.

My pickup is a 2011 F-150 with the 5.0 Coyote V8. I change my own oil and generally use the Motorcraft synthetic blend 5W-20, since that is generally the least expensive 5W-20 oil and the engine requires 5W-20 like pretty well every other Ford twincam engine I have ever seen. 5W-20 isn't rare any more like it was a dozen years ago but it still isn't nearly as common as 5W-30 or heavier oils. I get either one year or 10,000 miles between changes as my service notes in the owner's manual show. The service interval is longer than other gasoline engines I've used but the oil if anything looks less dirty than a typical gasoline engine's oil at the usual 5000 mile service interval. The truck also has a trip computer which calculates hours and generally an oil change occurs around 250-300 hours.

Mo1, haven't you figured out yet that I'm not going to fall for that strawman debate style? And don't act like you don't know what I mean.

You're talking about tractors . . Then you switch to autos which is not the topic and then diesel trucks.

I've yet to see a gas engine in any form of tractor that goes longer than 100 hours after the 1st 50 hour servicing. But many scuts go from the 50 hour service to then a 200 etc..

There are no remotely modern gasoline engines in anything larger than a garden tractor/riding lawnmower, so there is nothing to directly compare against for a SCUT/CUT. That's why the multiple references to passenger cars and pickup trucks, where there are direct comparators to discuss the general differences between diesel and gasoline engines.

The Kohler ECV series engines I mentioned are probably the closest comparators to what would be considered a modern small gasoline SCUT/CUT engine, since development of actual gasoline small tractor engines stopped at the latest in the 1960s with a points-and-carb system. The ECVs have a 100 hour oil change interval but a 200 hour oil filter change interval. I looked at the Deere 1 series owner's manual as Deere is the only manufacturer that freely posts its owner's manuals. They state a 200 hour oil + filter change interval for both the 1023E and 1025R. This is also the same interval my 1987 Massey-Ferguson 1030L lists (had to buy the manual.) Larger diesels may have longer service intervals- my father's 6.7 L six-cylinder DI turbo NH 6030 has a 600 hour service interval but only if you use synthetic oil (and IIRC it takes over 3 gallons of it.)

Similarly you act like time to a rebuild is like "forever" I think you stated . . . But much closer to the truth is what gas engines on tractors or smaller equipment have as a lifetime to rebuild and that 5 to 7 years is the average while diesela in scuts is in the 13 to 16 year average . . .and that my friend is real cost of ownership.

We've used roughly similarly-powered gasoline engines in riding lawnmowers/garden tractors (mainly a bunch of ~650 cc carbed V-twin Kohlers) and run then for about 10 years (approx 1500 hours) and none of them ever needed rebuilt. None of them ever even burned very much oil. One leaked a good amount of it, but none burned much of it.

The highest-hour unit I've ever operated is my little MF 1030L, which has about 3500 hours on it. If I can decipher old man cursive in the original incorrect model owner's manual, it was rebuilt at some unknown point in the past due to a head gasket failure. The engine does show signs of having been R&Red at some point based on the paint around the holes mounting it to the frame being scraped off by the bolt heads.

But what is most glaring is your complete avoidance of telling us a comparable gas engine to my Iseki under the conditions I establushed in that post. Its just silence from Mo1 on that naming of the comparable gas engine.

The Iseki engine in your tractor is a 1.1 liter engine, which is larger than the small (generally 800 cc and less) low-RPM gasoline engines but way too small to compare to the generally automotive engine-based industrial engines such are used in LP gensets and such. Your Iseki engine makes 43.8 ft-lb torque at its rated power of 3000 rpm. I suspect the Iseki's peak torque is about 50 ft-lb based on other similar small diesel engines' performance as I cannot find the exact peak figures for the Iseki engine. That would make something like the Kohler ECV880 (824 cc) with 32 hp and 51 ft-lb torque a grossly comparable competitor. If we are comparing based on displacement, the largest Kohler ECV made, the 999 cc ECV980 with 35 hp and 53 ft-lb torque would be closer.

Surely by naming that engine and where we can go for a demonstration . . you would cement the debate for yourself. Yet you haven't. Could it be because there isn't a general production gas engine that can or is even close to capable of matching the Iseki diesel 3 cylinder tractor engine under the standard tractor needs definitions I used ????

Name it for us Mo1.

I did and it would be very interesting to see how it would actually play out. I am truly curious as we have not seen a good head-to-head of modern gasoline vs. modern diesel engines in small tractors and thus the giant long thread full of speculation rather than a "Brand X model X with gas engine vs. Brand X model X with diesel engine" thread.

 

[aczlan]

Mo1, haven't you figured out yet that I'm not going to fall for that strawman debate style? And don't act like you don't know what I mean.
You're talking about tractors . . Then you switch to autos which is not the topic and then diesel trucks.
I've yet to see a gas engine in any form of tractor that goes longer than 100 hours after the 1st 50 hour servicing. But many scuts go from the 50 hour service to then a 200 etc..
Similarly you act like time to a rebuild is like "forever" I think you stated . . . But much closer to the truth is what gas engines on tractors or smaller equipment have as a lifetime to rebuild and that 5 to 7 years is the average while diesela in scuts is in the 13 to 16 year average . . .and that my friend is real cost of ownership.
But what is most glaring is your complete avoidance of telling us a comparable gas engine to my Iseki under the conditions I establushed in that post. Its just silence from Mo1 on that naming of the comparable gas engine.
Surely by naming that engine and where we can go for a demonstration . . you would cement the debate for yourself. Yet you haven't. Could it be because there isn't a general production gas engine that can or is even close to capable of matching the Iseki diesel 3 cylinder tractor engine under the standard tractor needs definitions I used ????
Name it for us Mo1.

How about the RTV 500 (gas FI engine) vs the RTV900/1100 (Diesel), both have 200 hour service intervals for both engine oil and oil filter: http://www.orangetractortalks.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/02-intervals-rtv.pdf

Aaron Z

 

[paulfun9]

Tractors aren't cars/light trucks, and they make for a poor comparison. Cars/light trucks, with any engine setup, are rarely run at high power settings for extended periods of time....hours on end. If you ran your car/truck with a gasoline engine at the equivalent of PTO speed, it wouldn't last long, because they aren't built for that kind of service. If you make a gasoline engine to withstand that level of use, it would cost nearly as much as a diesel. The best ZTRs have diesels, and that's what most commercial operators seem to be using around here. Regardless, the loads from spinning a couple of fairly small blades really don't compare to what we see with even small tractors.




So what your saying is that if I drive my wives car at a sustained speed of say 60 MPH with a trailer that is at the weight limit of its recommended pulling capacity right at its High torque output with the air conditioner running it wont last long? Basically then the gassers of old would not last long according to your theory, but in fact there are so many old gassers around here still running that I am simply confused by your statement.

Please explain how a motor designed to run a flat torque curve between 2000 to 3000 RPM of any fuel with todays building methods wont last long when being used at their recommended PTO Speed. I would really like to know why I can switch so many different industrial engines built with actual car engines from the same manufacture when Propane powered industrial use is considered. Yes there are some differences but not near as many as one would think and these industrial use engines do not have short life spans and are not worked under their operating speed for very long. In fact they are used in many cases very hard and running 3 shifts around the clock for at least 7 days out of the week and do many more hours then most folks will accumulate on their scut or cut.

 

[hutchman]

My pickup is a 2011 F-150 with the 5.0 Coyote V8. I change my own oil and generally use the Motorcraft synthetic blend 5W-20, since that is generally the least expensive 5W-20 oil and the engine requires 5W-20 like pretty well every other Ford twincam engine I have ever seen. 5W-20 isn't rare any more like it was a dozen years ago but it still isn't nearly as common as 5W-30 or heavier oils. I get either one year or 10,000 miles between changes as my service notes in the owner's manual show. The service interval is longer than other gasoline engines I've used but the oil if anything looks less dirty than a typical gasoline engine's oil at the usual 5000 mile service interval. The truck also has a trip computer which calculates hours and generally an oil change occurs around 250-300 hours.

I too have an F-150 that I special ordered new 17 years ago (4.6, the 5.4 had just came out and I was afraid to go with it ... a friend did in his and he had the joy of replacing quite a few of those coil packs while they were very expensive ... they eventually perfected them and the price did come down but he didn't benefit from any of that) and has never had the oil changed by anyone but me. I use Mobil 1 5W20 but only for MPG. It does not protect the engine as well as 5W30 and I have numbers to back that statement up (I'm one of those **** engineers that does oil analysis). 5W20 won't kill the engine tomorrow but the wear numbers are higher and it shears and breaks down quicker so there is no way I would ever try to go 10K miles with it. I've also noticed I have to add 5W20 during an interval and I don't have to do that with 5W30.

 

[AxleHub]

There are no remotely modern gasoline engines in anything larger than a garden tractor/riding lawnmower, so there is nothing to directly compare against for a SCUT/CUT. That's why the multiple references to passenger cars and pickup trucks, where there are direct comparators to discuss the general differences between diesel and gasoline engines.

The Kohler ECV series engines I mentioned are probably the closest comparators to what would be considered a modern small gasoline SCUT/CUT engine, since development of actual gasoline small tractor engines stopped at the latest in the 1960s with a points-and-carb system. The ECVs have a 100 hour oil change interval but a 200 hour oil filter change interval. I looked at the Deere 1 series owner's manual as Deere is the only manufacturer that freely posts its owner's manuals. They state a 200 hour oil + filter change interval for both the 1023E and 1025R. This is also the same interval my 1987 Massey-Ferguson 1030L lists (had to buy the manual.) Larger diesels may have longer service intervals- my father's 6.7 L six-cylinder DI turbo NH 6030 has a 600 hour service interval but only if you use synthetic oil (and IIRC it takes over 3 gallons of it.)

The Iseki engine in your tractor is a 1.1 liter engine, which is larger than the small (generally 800 cc and less) low-RPM gasoline engines but way too small to compare to the generally automotive engine-based industrial engines such are used in LP gensets and such. Your Iseki engine makes 43.8 ft-lb torque at its rated power of 3000 rpm. I suspect the Iseki's peak torque is about 50 ft-lb based on other similar small diesel engines' performance as I cannot find the exact peak figures for the Iseki engine. That would make something like the Kohler ECV880 (824 cc) with 32 hp and 51 ft-lb torque a grossly comparable competitor. If we are comparing based on displacement, the largest Kohler ECV made, the 999 cc ECV980 with 35 hp and 53 ft-lb torque would be closer.

I did and it would be very interesting to see how it would actually play out. I am truly curious as we have not seen a good head-to-head of modern gasoline vs. modern diesel engines in small tractors and thus the giant long thread full of speculation rather than a "Brand X model X with gas engine vs. Brand X model X with diesel engine" thread.

Well Mo1, it took long enough . . but you're finally posting factually . . . Because there is no comparable and as a result the gad engine concept in a scut or cut is only conceptual - - - not factual or with a predictable outcome.

I'd be curious what a comparable gas engine would cost compared to a diesel FOR TRACTOR PURPOSES. The fact you're describing a 35 hp gas to compare to my Iseki would imply a fairly expensive gas engine to start with.

I'd also percieve that keeping a 35 hp gas engine cool would require considerably more effort and cost than a 25 hp diesel. And engine materials and alloys in a gas vs. Diesel would also be quite varied.

I liken gas vs. Diesel in a potential tractor to the difference between a halfback and a fullback in football . . One built for speed (gas and halfback) and one built for sheer power and pounding (fullback and diesel).

Now there are hybrids in running backs (our Eddie Lacy is fast and a bigger pounder). I would think gas adapts better for atv and utv much better than diesel.

But the ultimate variable is that no major manufacturer uses gas in their tractors even though all the besy tractor engines are made in japan or korea. And those same countries also make the best gas engines imo. If a comparable gas engine were likely . . . It would have to be for cost savings and profit making . . Yet yanmar, iseki and kubota do not produce one. And Kawasaki, Shimotsu, yamaha, honda, et all don't have a gas product in a scut or cut tractor.

 

[AxleHub]

I too have an F-150 that I special ordered new 17 years ago (4.6, the 5.4 had just came out and I was afraid to go with it ... a friend did in his and he had the joy of replacing quite a few of those coil packs while they were very expensive ... they eventually perfected them and the price did come down but he didn't benefit from any of that) and has never had the oil changed by anyone but me. I use Mobil 1 5W20 but only for MPG. It does not protect the engine as well as 5W30 and I have numbers to back that statement up (I'm one of those **** engineers that does oil analysis). 5W20 won't kill the engine tomorrow but the wear numbers are higher and it shears and breaks down quicker so there is no way I would ever try to go 10K miles with it. I've also noticed I have to add 5W20 during an interval and I don't have to do that with 5W30.

Hutchman, nice post. Chevy always spec 5 w 30 for theur silverado products even their high performance engines/trucks like mine. I've never used anything else because I was always concerned that 5w20 would be a concern with my higher compressions. I never need to add.

What do you evaluate is the reason for your need to add between changes . . Burning or getting past the rings etc.?

 

[MHarryE]

I just replaced my 22HP John Deere rider 48" deck with a Kubota G2120 54" deck. I was a little concerned dropping power and adding the hydraulics (power steering) but the result in heavy grass is completing our 4 acre lawn in 1/3 the time plus doing a much better job. The Diesel, although lower power, will pull right through the tough spots where the gas engine just died. Back to sump ke physics, Diesel cycle vs Otto cycle. I list many of our tractors but don't list the gasolines - we have 4 Farmall A's, 2 M's and a Super C sitting around that get a little use running grain augers and the like. Our first diesel, a Case 400 Super Diesel in 1956, shut the door on ever having a gas tractor except for odd little things.

 

[GManBart]

So what your saying is that if I drive my wives car at a sustained speed of say 60 MPH with a trailer that is at the weight limit of its recommended pulling capacity right at its High torque output with the air conditioner running it wont last long? Basically then the gassers of old would not last long according to your theory, but in fact there are so many old gassers around here still running that I am simply confused by your statement.

No, that's not what I said, or was trying to say. First off, virtually nobody puts a trailer at max weight behind their car and then drives around for the next 10-20 years. They tow a little bit here and there, which is very different. Also, a car towing a trailer down the road, on level ground, at 60mph is turning the same rpm as it would be without the load....hills and transmission shifting will change that, of course. That rpm still won't be anywhere near the equivalent of what PTO speed is on a tractor. On level ground the load will change the manifold pressure the engine is producing, but that isn't a number we traditional use when talking about automobile engine.

If you took your wife's car on the highway and ran it at whatever speed equated to the engine producing something like 85% of it's available power, then you'd have a good comparison to a tractor at PTO speed. It wouldn't last long in that scenario, because cars and light trucks have light duty-cycle engines that aren't intended to put out rated power for extended periods of time.

You can argue about what "wouldn't last long" might be, but regardless, it won't last as long running at very high power settings as it will if it's operated the way cars are usually driven.

Please explain how a motor designed to run a flat torque curve between 2000 to 3000 RPM of any fuel with todays building methods wont last long when being used at their recommended PTO Speed. I would really like to know why I can switch so many different industrial engines built with actual car engines from the same manufacture when Propane powered industrial use is considered. Yes there are some differences but not near as many as one would think and these industrial use engines do not have short life spans and are not worked under their operating speed for very long. In fact they are used in many cases very hard and running 3 shifts around the clock for at least 7 days out of the week and do many more hours then most folks will accumulate on their scut or cut.

I never addressed this topic at all. If you can find an example of a gasoline engine fitting this description that would be suitable for use in a tractor, we'd all like to see it.

 

[aczlan]

If you took your wife's car on the highway and ran it at whatever speed equated to the engine producing something like 85% of it's available power, then you'd have a good comparison to a tractor at PTO speed. It wouldn't last long in that scenario, because cars and light trucks have light duty-cycle engines that aren't intended to put out rated power for extended periods of time.
You can argue about what "wouldn't last long" might be, but regardless, it won't last as long running at very high power settings as it will if it's operated the way cars are usually driven.

How about forklift engines? Forklifts are available in spark ignition (Gasoline or LPG) or Diesel models and they run 8-10k hours without needing any engine work if maintained.

Aaron Z

 

[paulfun9]

How about forklift engines? Forklifts are available in spark ignition (Gasoline or LPG) or Diesel models and they run 8-10k hours without needing any engine work if maintained.

Aaron Z

More than fork lift engines were made by Nissan, Toyota that fit this subject very well. This is exactly my point by the way. If industrial engines built for gas can be converted to propane for industrial use with nothing more than an intake and cam change and last for years under heavy use why does no one think a suitable gas engine could be designed to use in basic duty on a scut or a cut.

I wont argue which would be better but I do say that if one wanted to build a long stroke short duration engine with good cyl mean pressure at lower RPM it would not fail being used at what we consider to be PTO speed even while running the attachment for extended periods In fact, in a gear or shuttle application I can actually see a benefit due to the ability to use more RPM during transit which most diesel engines are not designed to give making for quicker travel time to a job or for more fuel. In actuality it could be more useful overall because even being built for a target PTO RPM it would still be able to rev higher and have useable power when doing so.

Its actually silly to think that one could not be built that would fit our need and last when we look at all the 200 and 300 thousand engines that are prevalent in cars and trucks today even thou we are not running them regularly at full load many of those cars and trucks get driven much harder than our tractors we just don't see it as doing so. My wives car has towed that trailer across this country of ours and back now and its still running and not smoking or anything and the speedo is showing something in the 230,000 range right now with my abusive 10,000 mile oil change intervals on regular oil. Toady is the first time in months that it will be driven without the trailer hooked up and with me driving and my balls to the wall driving style even that cant be considered a break for it.

So again I ask why cant a gas engine be built that will work in a small tractor?

 

[GManBart]

How about forklift engines? Forklifts are available in spark ignition (Gasoline or LPG) or Diesel models and they run 8-10k hours without needing any engine work if maintained.

Aaron Z

Again, this is apples-to-oranges. Forklift engines run pretty much like car engines in that they're rarely at near maximum rated power for extended periods of time. They spend most of their life idling, or at low power settings, not droning away at full throttle for thousands of hours.

 

[MossRoad]

Forklifts don't do much "hard" work. They just go back and forth, more than half the time with no load, and they use a hydraulic pump to lift. They do run a very long time, but again, not much load on them.

As I've mentioned many times, my late 70s IH2500b was a 50PTO HP gas engined tractor loader. It was also HST. Full cab, loaded tires, etc... about 8000#. It was also available with a diesel engine. Here's the specs for both engines below. As you can see, the diesel is larger and it has a more HP. Really, if you build a large displacement gas engine designed to do the work intended, you'd have to build a larger diesel engine to do the same work. It will cost a lot more, too. However, the diesel will be able to hold in the the torque curve longer, last a lot longer and use considerably less fuel. In and HST application like mine, it was recommended to run the thing at PTO rpms constantly. The diesel was much more fuel efficient and from talking to the guys at the industrial repair place I used a few times, the diesel was allegedly going twice as many hours as the gas before rebuilds under normal use. This was a late 70's design.

With that said, I had no issues with power and the gas engine. In a modern HST CUT or SCUT designed for mostly non-earth engaging tasks ( dirt plowing fields and pulling stumps), I'd have no issues with a gas engine. Its just turning a pump. You have to wonder why they stopped putting gas engines in them, then. It's probably because the diesel works better, lasts longer, is easier to work on at the shop, less parts to stock, and the manufacturer can charge more and make more profit.

Engine Detail:
International Harvester D-239
diesel
4-cylinder
liquid-cooled
239 ci [3.9 L]
Power: 67 hp [50.0 kW] (gear)
80 hp [59.7 kW] (hydro)
Compression: 16:1
Rated RPM: 2200 (gear)
2400 (hydro)
Oil capacity: 10 qts [9.5 L]
Coolant capacity: 14 qts [13.2 L]

Engine Detail:
International Harvester C-200
gasoline
4-cylinder
liquid-cooled
200 ci [3.3 L]
Power: 66 hp [49.2 kW] (gear)
74 hp [55.2 kW] (hydro)
Compression: 7.3:1
Rated RPM: 2200 (gear)
2400 (hydro)
Oil capacity: 7 qts [6.6 L]
Coolant capacity: 12 qts [11.4 L]

 

[GManBart]

More than fork lift engines were made by Nissan, Toyota that fit this subject very well. This is exactly my point by the way. If industrial engines built for gas can be converted to propane for industrial use with nothing more than an intake and cam change and last for years under heavy use why does no one think a suitable gas engine could be designed to use in basic duty on a scut or a cut.

I wont argue which would be better but I do say that if one wanted to build a long stroke short duration engine with good cyl mean pressure at lower RPM it would not fail being used at what we consider to be PTO speed even while running the attachment for extended periods In fact, in a gear or shuttle application I can actually see a benefit due to the ability to use more RPM during transit which most diesel engines are not designed to give making for quicker travel time to a job or for more fuel. In actuality it could be more useful overall because even being built for a target PTO RPM it would still be able to rev higher and have useable power when doing so.

Its actually silly to think that one could not be built that would fit our need and last when we look at all the 200 and 300 thousand engines that are prevalent in cars and trucks today even thou we are not running them regularly at full load many of those cars and trucks get driven much harder than our tractors we just don't see it as doing so. My wives car has towed that trailer across this country of ours and back now and its still running and not smoking or anything and the speedo is showing something in the 230,000 range right now with my abusive 10,000 mile oil change intervals on regular oil. Toady is the first time in months that it will be driven without the trailer hooked up and with me driving and my balls to the wall driving style even that cant be considered a break for it.

So again I ask why cant a gas engine be built that will work in a small tractor?

Nobody has said a gas engine couldn't be built to work in a tractor. The fact is, right now nobody is making an engine like that. If they did, and incorporated all of the modern stuff like direct injection, etc, much of the cost savings of gasoline engine construction versus diesel would be gone....narrowing the gap in purchase cost.

The other thing is that it's highly unlikely that a tractor manufacturer would sell any additional machines if they suddenly started offering a gasoline alternative, so they would be wasting a lot of money developing a new engine for zero sales increase.

The point remains that your wife's car towing a trailer is very different from a tractor operating at PTO speed for thousands of hours. It's still only a partial load, with few peak power loads that aren't sustained for very long. Put it this way....put the trailer behind her car, head onto the highway, put the car in first gear, and run the engine up to 85% of max....let it sit there for maybe 8 hours a day. How long will it last? Not very long at all. Do the same thing with a tractor and it's going to last years, or decades.

I actually know a guy who got into a huge conflict with Chevrolet about a newly purchased Corvette. The details don't really matter (and I'm not endorsing his behavior), but he took it out on the highway, put it in first gear and ran it near redline until it blew up....he didn't get very far. If you did that with anything that has a heavy duty diesel engine and you'd just drive pretty slowly until you got tired of it, but it's not going to hurt the engine.

 

[crazyal]

One thing about forklifts is they often get used indoors. the exhaust from a diesel would make it a poor choice to run indoors. That's why you almost always see electric or propane. But that's really what all of this comes down to. You pick the best fuel type for the job. For long hours with heavy loads a diesel is great choice.

 

[paulfun9]

Nobody has said a gas engine couldn't be built to work in a tractor. The fact is, right now nobody is making an engine like that. If they did, and incorporated all of the modern stuff like direct injection, etc, much of the cost savings of gasoline engine construction versus diesel would be gone....narrowing the gap in purchase cost.

The other thing is that it's highly unlikely that a tractor manufacturer would sell any additional machines if they suddenly started offering a gasoline alternative, so they would be wasting a lot of money developing a new engine for zero sales increase.

The point remains that your wife's car towing a trailer is very different from a tractor operating at PTO speed for thousands of hours. It's still only a partial load, with few peak power loads that aren't sustained for very long. Put it this way....put the trailer behind her car, head onto the highway, put the car in first gear, and run the engine up to 85% of max....let it sit there for maybe 8 hours a day. How long will it last? Not very long at all. Do the same thing with a tractor and it's going to last years, or decades.

I actually know a guy who got into a huge conflict with Chevrolet about a newly purchased Corvette. The details don't really matter (and I'm not endorsing his behavior), but he took it out on the highway, put it in first gear and ran it near redline until it blew up....he didn't get very far. If you did that with anything that has a heavy duty diesel engine and you'd just drive pretty slowly until you got tired of it, but it's not going to hurt the engine.

No one is arguing the difference in what we consider normal loads on the engine but I will also say that if your friends car had been a jeep pulling a load that was enough to keep him from attaining max RPM while dragging it in first gear he would not have been able to blow the engine. Now we can talk about the other variables all you want like the overheat that would transpire because the cooling system would not handle the heat but if the engine was built for the use it would not blow nor overheat. Now for the blowing up due to over revving for a long period of time what would happen if we set up a diesel to be able to attain the same rpm that the gas engine in your friends car can and did the same thing even with it being built to make max power well below max RPM? Ever see what happens when a diesel has pump failure and keeps on going up in RMP till it blows?

 

[buickanddeere]

I have enough problems with gas in my small engines ... I sure don't want my tractor I'm wanting to last for a LONG time to suffer the same fate ... don't have to look too far to see its a headache not worth having if you can help it:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...-damage-caused-ethanol-gasoline-new-post.html

Maintenance costs? Yea, I get that comment a lot with my car. Factory oil change interval for that is 10K miles on the oil. Do you do that in your gasser? And before the gubment changed the API spec to CJ4, it was REAL easy to use oil analysis to do extended intervals safely to 20K miles.

... and I don't have to buy any spark plugs (or plug wires etc.)

Please tell us with 2015 vehicles how often plugs, wires, caps, rotors and points need to be changed. Don't forget the automatic choke and the heat riser valve too. How much does one Duramax injector cost ?