Any news on gas engine CUTS?

[Sawyer Rob]

No carb, put modern Tier 4 diesel 35 hp compact tractor versus a modern fuel injected gas engine 35 hp compact tractor in your mind. The latter doesn't exist but in atv's or UTV's I will say for certain that a modern fuel injected small gas engine is a different beast than a carb engine. They start easier and can be left longer with less ill effect.

B&D says he drains carbs to keep problems down, I was commenting on that...

As for NEW injected gas motors, I have them too, they are better than carbed ones, but they are NOT superior to the newer diesels... (or even as good in my book)

SR

 

[dusty3030]

B&D says he drains carbs to keep problems down, I was commenting on that...

As for NEW injected gas motors, I have them too, they are better than carbed ones, but they are NOT superior to the newer diesels... (or even as good in my book)

SR

Yeah as far as I know a modern "industrial" gasser doesn't exist. I would be open to one as opposed to a Tier 4 diesel personally. In my area I get road diesel cheaper from Kroger than I can farm diesel from the bulk place since I only burn 60 to 80 gallons a year. Even then it is at least a buck higher per gallon than gas. Every other engine on my place is a gasser (atv's utv's mowers, generators, pressure washers, saws, blowers , etc etc etc.)

 

[DavesTractor]

I'm a diesel guy, just about everything I own is a diesel. I'm currently planning on putting a Duramax in a Suburban because I want it to be a diesel, even though it will take decades to make it a smart move financially. I like diesel that much. However, with gas direct injection and all the advances in fuel injection I think it's a reasonable question to ask why nobody builds a gas tractor. I am wondering though, if the costs of such an advanced gas engine make it impractical. All of that technology, advancement in materials does not come cheap. I think a gas tractor would need a price advantage and then the market would be mostly small tractors I think. Guys that do 100 hours a year or less do not care so much about gallons/hour as the total fuel bill for the year is similar to what you pay making frequent stops at Starbucks for coffee.

I'm thinking a Kubota BX sized tractor that is battery/electric. Most guys with 2 acres or less could probably get most projects done with 2 hours of constant usage and then a charge. Totally quiet. Nice and heavy due to batteries, etc. Probably the hydraulics for a loader or backhoe would switch to linear actuators. Use for 2 hours until the battery meter shows low, have coffee and a nap, then go at it again.

I'm certainly not a mechanical engineer.....so I'll plead ignorance if my comments reflect an idea that simply is not feasible.

 

[dodge man]

That's one of the big things with a BX, a lot of people that have them mow with them, and that is a high load application. Same thing with other tractors and brush hogging.

There has to be a reason why diesels are used in these applications.

Comparing a motorcycle engine to a tractor engine? Sometimes the best way to look at things is to take the most extreme case you can think of. Maybe another extreme case would be can you imagine a diesel powered chain saw?

 

[GManBart]

Not a problem here. I purchase clean fresh premium gasoline and store equipment with the carb drained and the fuel tank full.

If it has ethanol in it...it still sucks.

Around here, ethanol-free gas is hard to find, but the one place that has it is getting $2.99 a gallon. Diesel is $2.79 a gallon at that same station. That isn't enough savings to make up for the lower efficiency of gas engines.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Yeah as far as I know a modern "industrial" gasser doesn't exist.)

Kubota has one, when I bought my new Grasshopper I could have opted for it...but I believe a diesel is a better choice for a work engine, so that's what I chose, and I believe I made the right choice... It's a grass mowing, sno-blowing fool!

SR

 

[buickanddeere]

As to gas/diesel. I had 1 acre of 12" grass to cut. The JD with 22hp and 42" deck would not cut it without crawling along at a snails pace.
I got out the Kubota with 22hp diesel and a 60" deck. The Kubota cut at a fast walking pace and never bogged down. Cutting at 4" high with both mowers, the Kubota cut more grass in less time with less effort.

Given the differences between the machines . The only say you could compare is by swapping engines. It sounds like the Briggs or Kawasaki gasser was worn and out of tune running too rich.

 

[buickanddeere]

Industrial spark ignition engines running on LP or NG are common enough . What do you think powers some standby generators and NG pipeline compressors?
Since the EPA did not eliminate the diesel from the market place as planned with emission specs they thought were impossible to meet . Just wait a little while for Tier V diesel emissions .
Diesel chainsaws, yes there were a few made. Diesel model airplane engines too.
Given the upfront price of Tier IV diesel emissions equipment and repair bills down the road .ight duty equipment manufactures are going to keep the DI gasser in mind.
As previously stated several times, the 50-200hr a year putting around user is a different market than somebody combining 2000 acres of crop.

 

[TomSeller]

All I know is I have a 35HP diesel tractor and a 35HP gas powered zero turn.
Mowing my lawn with the 35HP diesel tractor I'm averaging around 1,25 gal/hour fuel.
Mowing the same lawn my 35HP gas Z turn averages around 2 gal/hour.

Close to the same cost then?

 

[DK35vince]

Close to the same cost then?

That may be true just recently since the gas prices have fallen so low.
But for the past several years prior to that off road diesel and gasoline were running near the same prices in my area. So there was a notable difference in cost/hour.

 

[ME83]

However, with gas direct injection and all the advances in fuel injection I think it's a reasonable question to ask why nobody builds a gas tractor. I am wondering though, if the costs of such an advanced gas engine make it impractical. All of that technology, advancement in materials does not come cheap. I think a gas tractor would need a price advantage and then the market would be mostly small tractors I think. Guys that do 100 hours a year or less do not care so much about gallons/hour as the total fuel bill for the year is similar to what you pay making frequent stops at Starbucks for coffee.

I'm thinking a Kubota BX sized tractor that is battery/electric. Most guys with 2 acres or less could probably get most projects done with 2 hours of constant usage and then a charge. Totally quiet. Nice and heavy due to batteries, etc. Probably the hydraulics for a loader or backhoe would switch to linear actuators. Use for 2 hours until the battery meter shows low, have coffee and a nap, then go at it again.

A lot of diesels have been direct injected and turbocharged for many years. I don't see direct injection being cost prohibitive, almost every new car is now direct injected. I see the cost to be similar to what the pre tier 4 diesels cost. Direct injection is not really needed for tractors anyways, but it does have some good benefits. Turbocharging is where a gas engine will gain the most torque.

An electric tractor is definitely in the future, just too cost prohibitive right now and I doubt there would much interest in the market. The new electric cars are getting 250 miles out of a single charge. A comparable gas engined car would burn roughly 7-8 gallons of gas for 250 miles. Considering you could have a much larger battery on a tractor, you could easily get 4 hours of heavy run time out of an electric tractor. Just have a swappable battery pack and you could go all day!

 

[MossRoad]

Fundamentally I thank that diesel is the way to on tractors since they start and run better given upkeep of the fuel system. My gas engines (excluding cars) mostly consist of roto tillers, pumps, lawnmowers, chainsaws, etc. I do, however, have one air cooled diesel. A Yanmar 6 HP diesel generator. I have to tell you that that Yanmar diesel starts on the first pull EVERY time. The gas engines start anywhere from 1 pull to 6 pulls, and occasionally need tinkering. Diesel is more reliable than gas, but if used on a tractor every day, I would not dismiss a gas engine.

What data do we have to show that tractor diesel engines start and run better than tractor gas engines? We're not talking about lawn equipment. Just about every piece of equipment we operated at the airport that had 4 or 6 cylinder industrial gas engines (they are similar to gas tractor engines) all started better than the diesel equipment we had. Every one of them. Especially in winter, when we needed them most. We had to do a lot more prep work to make sure the diesels would start. The gas, we just hit the key. Maybe a shot of either if it was really cold, like -5 or so.

 

[MossRoad]

M

Just can't get people to understand the difference between gasoline engines , Diesel engines, light and heavy duty use.
Every time some dreamer drags out the motor cycle engine in a tractor state which is the height of foolishness and demonstrates a clear lack of understanding.
Last time & looked at a gas 4020 JD engine it operated at very similar HP, torque , rpm and displacement of the diesel.
Anybody here that doesn't understand part throttle fuel efficiency of diesels. Take a look at the Nebraska tracror tests at part load. Yes, part load where small yard, construction and light highway applications occur. Part load or light duty operation such as cars, trucks, lawn tractors, atv's , most small boats etc. The gasser uses less fuel when putting around at 10-50% power than a diesel does. Don't bother bringing up old stories of a 350 carburated chev vs a 6BT Cummins either . That was 25 years ago . The DI gasssers are now besting the Tier IV diesel in pickups.We are talking about Tier IV diesels in 2015 putting around in light duty applications.
Not every application is what you think of where the engine is making 85-100% power for 6-18Hrs per day ploughing or pumping water. In such applications where the diesel was designed for , of course even the stifled Tier IV diesel is better than the gasser when running at near 100% power .where thermal efficiency isn't being lost up the stack with excess air. Diesel while priced much higher than gasoline does contain more btu's of energy per gallon.
Today's DI gassers are very close to diesel thermal efficiency per btu of fuel with the 12 to 1 expansion ratio .
Dream as you wish but your pickup or CUT is not a He Man application.

You'd do a lot better convincing people that your way of thinking is correct if you didn't sling insults around.

 

[MossRoad]

As to gas/diesel. I had 1 acre of 12" grass to cut. The JD with 22hp and 42" deck would not cut it without crawling along at a snails pace.
I got out the Kubota with 22hp diesel and a 60" deck. The Kubota cut at a fast walking pace and never bogged down. Cutting at 4" high with both mowers, the Kubota cut more grass in less time with less effort.

Are you mixing engine HP with PTO HP? Was your JD listed as 22 engine HP and your Kubota listed at 22PTO HP? Or are we comparing engine HP to engine HP? Just curious. Thanks.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

What data do we have to show that tractor diesel engines start and run better than tractor gas engines? We're not talking about lawn equipment. Just about every piece of equipment we operated at the airport that had 4 or 6 cylinder industrial gas engines (they are similar to gas tractor engines) all started better than the diesel equipment we had. Every one of them. Especially in winter, when we needed them most. We had to do a lot more prep work to make sure the diesels would start. The gas, we just hit the key. Maybe a shot of either if it was really cold, like -5 or so.

I've got several of each, come on over and try them for your self. I can go out and crank up my loader tractor in any weather we have, including -5*, no glow plugs or anything else, all it needs is a good batt... Climb on, turn the key and it will start... Bet you none of my gas tractors will start that fast...

That's why I like "direct" injected diesels instead on "indirect" injection. Direct will start easier in the cold and you don't have to use the glow plugs...

BTW, I NEVER use ether in anything!!!

SR

 

[MossRoad]

And our gas equipment started easier than our diesel equipment.... again, no real data, just a couple guys (you and me) relating our experiences. Our diesel trucks had fuel gelling problems. Cold starting problems. Glow plug problems. Block heater problems. Etc.... Our gas equipment, however, did not last as long and used more fuel. I'm not arguing one is better than the other for long term ownership and return on investment, and so forth. I'm saying gasoline powered tractors are very workable and produced very similar power as their identically equipped diesel counterparts. As to why diesel won out over gas, there's many reasons including fewer parts, better fuel economy, safety and ease of fuel storage, economics of similarity in manufacturing(why build both types of engines?) and... diesel fuel used to be cheaper than gas.

 

[buickanddeere]

DI gasser is vastly superior over the port injected gasser. The DI engine no more has detonation problems from low octane fuel than a diesel engine does. The DI gasser's 12 to 1 mechanical ratio allows a greater amount of energy to be extracted from the power stroke than the 9 to 1 engine all other factors identical. It's not the compression ratio on the intake stroke that makes power, it takes extra power. It's the expansion ratioon the power stroke that makes power.
Gasoline is the "lighter" fuel than diesel and inherently burns cleaner thus requires less complex exhaust treatment. Just as LP and NG burns cleaner than gasoline and requires even less treatment.
As previously stated the #1 reason that put diesel engines in heavy equipment from the 1930's to 2007 in North America was diesel fuel being cheaper to purchase than gasoline per gallon and per btu.
Now with over priced diesel in the US and the cost of Tier IV emissions. The diesel is a hard sell outside of the HD market.
Of course in most countries around the world diesel is cheaper at the pumps than gasoline so hence the popularity in the light equipment market.
Many owner and operators can't see past the price of fuel at the pumps and only see it as the primary operating cost. Equipment purchase price, trade in price, service costs, down time and fuel all figure into the actual operating costs.
You should see the pouty faces sometimes when somebody starts telling me how much their vehicle is saving over some other vehicle. Start adding up ALL the costs and they get some awful grumpy.

 

[davesl708]

Given the differences between the machines . The only say you could compare is by swapping engines. It sounds like the Briggs or Kawasaki gasser was worn and out of tune running too rich.

The JD D130 is three years old with 147hrs. The Kubota is 12 years old and 1300 hrs.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

A direct injection diesel with no glow plugs and no intake manifold heater, no block heater, -5F, no ether and it starts ? You sir are not telling the truth.

I didn't say it didn't have a glow plug, I said I didn't need to use it! But, I am telling the truth and anyone who wants to come by and see it happen, is welcome to do so...

Just because Your's won't do it, don't ASSUME no one else's will either!

BTW, I'd bet you that my neighbors JX65 and JX95 will do the same thing!

SR

 

[davesl708]

Are you mixing engine HP with PTO HP? Was your JD listed as 22 engine HP and your Kubota listed at 22PTO HP? Or are we comparing engine HP to engine HP? Just curious. Thanks.

The JD is 2011 B&S 22hp. The Kubota is a 2003 22hp diesel. PTO = 16.7hp