Any news on gas engine CUTS?

[Poopdeck Pappy]

Gasoline today is the best it's ever been. Varnish and gum is unheard of today. No lead reduces engine deposites and wear.low sulphur reduces oil contamination and corrosion.

Those have been replaced with a new evil: ethanol.

Hey, you guys can go buy all the gasoline tractors you want. Knock yourselves out. You can even have my share. If someone comes out with a new gasoline tractor, I know one guy that won't be buying one.

 

[buickanddeere]

Deeremann. How can you compare a carburated gasser to a mechanical pump diesel ? For comparisons look at at mileage of a 1975 400 Chev 4x4 vs a 2104 Chev with the 5.3 DI. Compare the cost and reliability of a Cummins 6BT at 10 years and 200,000 miles . vs a 2014 Cummins in 2024 with 200,000 miles.
Btw check the fuel efficiency of the JD 620/630 and an Oliver iirc. They would be cheaper to run now ploughing a field than most diesels of the same era.
If diesel was such a hands down winner every small lawn mower, motor cycle, chain saw, garden tractor, ATV, outboard boat motor, inboard boat motors under 30ft and portable 6.5Kw generator would all be diesel. Light highway vehicles such as cars and pickups would all be diesel.
Are you aware of the definitions of light duty and heavy duty?

 

[DeereMann]

uh, Mr. B&D....I am a Mechanical Engineer with 30 years in the industry designing the things.

 

[dodge man]

A good comparison would be the 900cc engine in my Kubota BX. Its rated at 23 hp. I looked up a 900 cc engine in a Honda motorcycle, it was rated at 97 hp. No comparison right? Why not use gas? For one thing, take the motorcycle engine and run it near 100% power output, then run the diesel engine in my BX at 100% power. I don't have any numbers but I'm sure the diesel will outlast the motorcycle engine several times over.

One thing to keep in mind, say in a motorcycle design, weight is a huge factor. Same thing with cars, airplanes, chainsaws, weed eaters and many other items and that's why gas engines are used. They make more power for a given engine weight.

Now take a tractor. People add front weight, they load the tires, light weight isn't a factor. Say my BX needs to be 30 hp. Cheaper and easier just to bump up the displacement since a little extra weight isn't a bad thing. There is a reason over the road trucks, tractors, construction equipment all use diesel engines. In high load, high hour applications, they last longer and are more fuel efficient.

I saw a large Cat Challenger, this sucker must have had several thousand pounds of iron hanging off it to bump up the weight. I'm sure you could design a gas engine to power the thing, it would be much lighter also but what would you gain?

Now in SCUTS and CUTS, might gas engines make them cheaper and be just as good? I can't say.

 

[ME83]

This is why I asked the question about CUTS, most of the SCUTS and CUTS out there are owned by homeowners. Most homeowners only put 100-200hrs a year on a tractor and half those hours are probably spent lugging around and not at pto speeds. Besides, a lot of those old gas engine tractors lasted for many hours. My Ford had over 4000 hrs and still ran strong with very little oil consumption, not bad for being over 40 years old!

Gas engines don't have to be light, that is just how they are built these days to save money. You can still build them with a heavy walled cast iron block, but I would rather put extra weight where it is needed. I find the front tires on my 110 TLB are always the first ones to sink in the mud and rut things up, little less weight in the front would not be a bad thing. Most CUTS have a loader on the front, just scoop a bucket of dirt if you are pulling something that heavy to make the front end light. 1000 lbs in the bucket is three to four times better than 500 lbs on an engine as far as weight transfer goes.

Gas engines have been proven to work, gas is better these days than years ago, and diesels have become much more complicated and expensive. This is why I asked if there has been any news on new tractors coming out with gas engines, it seems like a logical option that will benefit many potential buyers.

 

[MossRoad]

The thing I would miss most going to gas is the diesel compression braking in my hilly woodlot. I rarely use the brakes even on steep hills. A gas rig just doesn't hold you back that way.
Jim

If its a hydrostatic transmission it doesn't make a difference at all.

 

[MossRoad]

Here's a valid comparison of a late 70's International 2500b tractor loader with either a gas or diesel engine, gear or hydro tranny. The diesel engine was 20% larger displacement than the gas engine, but made only 1 more HP at the PTO with a gear tranny. Surprisingly, both gas and diesel models made significantly more PTO HP with hydro transmissions than gear transmissions... the diesel making 13 more PTO HP and the gas making 8 more HP.

My 2500b had well over 4000 hours on it, a gas engine, hydro tranny and could probably knock a house over at 30 years old. It had plenty of power. The hydro transmission supplied exceptional braking and the only time I actually used the brakes was for holding position on hills, or turning sharply.

As for fuel economy, the operator's manual said to run it at PTO speed pretty much all the time to get the best performance out of the hydro transmission, regardless of if it was a diesel or gas engine. So a diesel or gas powered unit with a hydro tranny would, by nature, get significantly less fuel economy VS a gear tranny'd unit of the same make and model. Mine burned about 2-3 gallons per hour, as I recall.

Any engines turning hydro transmissions are just big pump motors. Both will perform well in that nature as long as they are rated to supply the needed HP and torque. When you use gear trannies, its a completely different animal.

Diesel Engine Detail:
International Harvester D-239
diesel
4-cylinder
liquid-cooled
239 ci [3.9 L]
Power: 67 hp [50.0 kW] (gear)
80 hp [59.7 kW] (hydro)
Compression: 16:1
Rated RPM: 2200 (gear)
2400 (hydro)
Oil capacity: 10 qts [9.5 L]
Coolant capacity: 14 qts [13.2 L]

Gas Engine Detail:
International Harvester C-200
gasoline
4-cylinder
liquid-cooled
200 ci [3.3 L]
Power: 66 hp [49.2 kW] (gear)
74 hp [55.2 kW] (hydro)
Compression: 7.3:1
Rated RPM: 2200 (gear)
2400 (hydro)
Oil capacity: 7 qts [6.6 L]
Coolant capacity: 12 qts [11.4 L]

 

[paulfun9]

Gasoline today is the best it's ever been. Varnish and gum is unheard of today. No lead reduces engine deposites and wear.low sulphur reduces oil contamination and corrosion.

Tell that to the people who have been paying me to clean out their carbs after they sit for a few months!

 

[TomSeller]

Fundamentally I thank that diesel is the way to on tractors since they start and run better given upkeep of the fuel system. My gas engines (excluding cars) mostly consist of roto tillers, pumps, lawnmowers, chainsaws, etc. I do, however, have one air cooled diesel. A Yanmar 6 HP diesel generator. I have to tell you that that Yanmar diesel starts on the first pull EVERY time. The gas engines start anywhere from 1 pull to 6 pulls, and occasionally need tinkering. Diesel is more reliable than gas, but if used on a tractor every day, I would not dismiss a gas engine.

 

[arlen4720]

The thing I would miss most going to gas is the diesel compression braking in my hilly woodlot. I rarely use the brakes even on steep hills. A gas rig just doesn't hold you back that way.
Jim

I don't agree with that. Unless you have a jake brake on your tractor... diesels don't engine brake as well as a gas engine because diesels don't have a throttle plate.

 

[tduby]

since a lot of people are going to Korean built tractors to save a few grand off the price of new tractors I think if you could save a few thousand getting a cheaper engine a lot of guys would jump for it. granted tier 4 is new in tractors but it has been around a while in trucks and I doubt you will find a person who will say anything good about it. And if you look at the medium duty trucks Ford started offering their V10 gas engines for this very reason. I know very few true farmers will ever buy a gas but to those of us who are lucky to put on 200 hours a year a gas engine in smaller tractors makes a lot of sense.

 

[buickanddeere]

uh, Mr. B&D....I am a Mechanical Engineer with 30 years in the industry designing the things.

Given the number of engineers I have dealt with in the nuclear industry that just never seem to get a grasp and understanding of an issue. It's fair to say that there are some mechanical engineers that are more theoretical minded than practical as well.

 

[buickanddeere]

M

A good comparison would be the 900cc engine in my Kubota BX. Its rated at 23 hp. I looked up a 900 cc engine in a Honda motorcycle, it was rated at 97 hp. No comparison right? Why not use gas? For one thing, take the motorcycle engine and run it near 100% power output, then run the diesel engine in my BX at 100% power. I don't have any numbers but I'm sure the diesel will outlast the motorcycle engine several times over.

One thing to keep in mind, say in a motorcycle design, weight is a huge factor. Same thing with cars, airplanes, chainsaws, weed eaters and many other items and that's why gas engines are used. They make more power for a given engine weight.

Now take a tractor. People add front weight, they load the tires, light weight isn't a factor. Say my BX needs to be 30 hp. Cheaper and easier just to bump up the displacement since a little extra weight isn't a bad thing. There is a reason over the road trucks, tractors, construction equipment all use diesel engines. In high load, high hour applications, they last longer and are more fuel efficient.

I saw a large Cat Challenger, this sucker must have had several thousand pounds of iron hanging off it to bump up the weight. I'm sure you could design a gas engine to power the thing, it would be much lighter also but what would you gain?

Now in SCUTS and CUTS, might gas engines make them cheaper and be just as good? I can't say.

Just can't get people to understand the difference between gasoline engines , Diesel engines, light and heavy duty use.
Every time some dreamer drags out the motor cycle engine in a tractor state which is the height of foolishness and demonstrates a clear lack of understanding.
Last time & looked at a gas 4020 JD engine it operated at very similar HP, torque , rpm and displacement of the diesel.
Anybody here that doesn't understand part throttle fuel efficiency of diesels. Take a look at the Nebraska tracror tests at part load. Yes, part load where small yard, construction and light highway applications occur. Part load or light duty operation such as cars, trucks, lawn tractors, atv's , most small boats etc. The gasser uses less fuel when putting around at 10-50% power than a diesel does. Don't bother bringing up old stories of a 350 carburated chev vs a 6BT Cummins either . That was 25 years ago . The DI gasssers are now besting the Tier IV diesel in pickups.We are talking about Tier IV diesels in 2015 putting around in light duty applications.
Not every application is what you think of where the engine is making 85-100% power for 6-18Hrs per day ploughing or pumping water. In such applications where the diesel was designed for , of course even the stifled Tier IV diesel is better than the gasser when running at near 100% power .where thermal efficiency isn't being lost up the stack with excess air. Diesel while priced much higher than gasoline does contain more btu's of energy per gallon.
Today's DI gassers are very close to diesel thermal efficiency per btu of fuel with the 12 to 1 expansion ratio .
Dream as you wish but your pickup or CUT is not a He Man application.

 

[DK35vince]

All I know is I have a 35HP diesel tractor and a 35HP gas powered zero turn.
Mowing my lawn with the 35HP diesel tractor I'm averaging around 1,25 gal/hour fuel.
Mowing the same lawn my 35HP gas Z turn averages around 2 gal/hour.

 

[buickanddeere]

Tell that to the people who have been paying me to clean out their carbs after they sit for a few months!

Not a problem here. I purchase clean fresh premium gasoline and store equipment with the carb drained and the fuel tank full.

 

[buickanddeere]

All I know is I have a 35HP diesel tractor and a 35HP gas powered zero turn.
Mowing my lawn with the 35HP diesel tractor I'm averaging around 1,25 gal/hour fuel.
Mowing the same lawn my 35HP gas Z turn averages around 2 gal/hour.

Price difference between gasoline and diesel fuel ?
Cold weather starting of diesel vs gas?
Gelling of diesel fuel in winter ?
Cost to service that emissions diesel at the dealership?
How many hours and years to break even on the extra cost of the diesel option over gas by "saving fuel"?
With the exception of the 0.5% of diesel pickups hauling 20,000-26,000 pounds for 25,000 miles a year. Diesel doesn't pay in pickup anymore after the EPA ruined the diesel.
It's 2015, not 1989.

 

[buickanddeere]

All I know is I have a 35HP diesel tractor and a 35HP gas powered zero turn.
Mowing my lawn with the 35HP diesel tractor I'm averaging around 1,25 gal/hour fuel.
Mowing the same lawn my 35HP gas Z turn averages around 2 gal/hour.

Price difference between gasoline and diesel fuel ?
Cold weather starting of diesel vs gas?
Gelling of diesel fuel in winter ?
Cost to service that emissions diesel at the dealership?
How many hours and years to break even on the extra cost of the diesel option over gas by "saving fuel"?
With the exception of the 0.5% of diesel pickups hauling 20,000-26,000 pounds for 25,000 miles a year. Diesel doesn't pay in pickup anymore after the EPA ruined the diesel.
It's 2015, not 1989.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Price difference between gasoline and diesel fuel ?
Cold weather starting of diesel vs gas?
Gelling of diesel fuel in winter ?
Cost to service that emissions diesel at the dealership?
How many hours and years to break even on the extra cost of the diesel option over gas by "saving fuel"?
With the exception of the 0.5% of diesel pickups hauling 20,000-26,000 pounds for 25,000 miles a year. Diesel doesn't pay in pickup anymore after the EPA ruined the diesel.
It's 2015, not 1989.

Are we talking tractors or pickups???

I have several tractors in both, gas and diesel. My modern diesels start better in the winter than my gas tractors and on the diesels, I don't have to drain the carb ect.. ect.. when I let them set, even for months they crank right up! AND some DO sit for months, especially in the winter...

I buy my diesel from the pumps in the winter, I've never had it gell, I've never got bad diesel either... As for price... Today gas is $2.09, farm diesel is $2.48, not really that much different...especially when my diesels use a LOT less of it... When it comes to storing fuel, diesel stores MUCH better than todays gas!

I don't take tractors to a dealership to be serviced... I do it myself and the difference between gas/diesel is, the diesel motors "generally" hold a few more quarts of oil.....that's it. If they made a gas powered tractor today, with a HD engine, the oil pan would probably be the same size as a diesel has, as all that oil helps with engine cooling too...

In a tractor, i'd take a diesel EVERY time over any gas motor!

SR

 

[dusty3030]

Are we talking tractors or pickups???

I have several tractors in both, gas and diesel. My modern diesels start better in the winter than my gas tractors and on the diesels, I don't have to drain the carb ect.. ect.. when I let them set, even for months they crank right up! AND some DO sit for months, especially in the winter...

I buy my diesel from the pumps in the winter, I've never had it gell, I've never got bad diesel either... As for price... Today gas is $2.09, farm diesel is $2.48, not really that much different...especially when my diesels use a LOT less of it... When it comes to storing fuel, diesel stores MUCH better than todays gas!

I don't take tractors to a dealership to be serviced... I do it myself and the difference between gas/diesel is, the diesel motors "generally" hold a few more quarts of oil.....that's it. If they made a gas powered tractor today, with a HD engine, the oil pan would probably be the same size as a diesel has, as all that oil helps with engine cooling too...

In a tractor, i'd take a diesel EVERY time over any gas motor!

SR

No carb, put modern Tier 4 diesel 35 hp compact tractor versus a modern fuel injected gas engine 35 hp compact tractor in your mind. The latter doesn't exist but in atv's or UTV's I will say for certain that a modern fuel injected small gas engine is a different beast than a carb engine. They start easier and can be left longer with less ill effect.

 

[davesl708]

As to gas/diesel. I had 1 acre of 12" grass to cut. The JD with 22hp and 42" deck would not cut it without crawling along at a snails pace.
I got out the Kubota with 22hp diesel and a 60" deck. The Kubota cut at a fast walking pace and never bogged down. Cutting at 4" high with both mowers, the Kubota cut more grass in less time with less effort.