Mowing PTO won't disengage when using brush hog

[k0ua]

it is very difficult for me to believe the the overunning clutch was removed from later models.. I am just having a real problem with that. That sounds like a cock and bull story to me. Yes old ford tractors from 70 years ago did not have overunning clutches, but a lot of stupid things were done 70 years ago. And a lot of those tractors were shoved into fences, and over embankments etc too. I realize the number of CK20 sold as manual transmissions are probably small as the majority of them are sold with the independent PTO on the hydrostat model. But still if you are going to offer a manual transmission model with a PTO it should be safe! And then to design it with an overrunning clutch, and obviously many out there have them, and now we are to believe they just took it out? If this is true it is lawsuit time.

 

[rider7767]

For rider7767 (post 14): Can you provide a reference for a legal requirement for the overrunning clutch? I don't doubt the requirement, I just don't know where to look.

For fsrtraveler: If Kioti is in violation of OSHA or legal requirements, burn them. Personally, I think you have a broken tractor and you are being fed a line of crap from the clowns in Wendell NC. This is not any kind of sight on tar heels in general. If I look at the online parts diagram (Parts Diagram) parts 12, 14, and 15 sure look like an over-running clutch to me. The parts diagram does not indicate any alternate configurations. We have all seen errors in Kioti documentation, but discontinuing this clutch would be awful stupid. I don't think Koreans are that stupid. It's a lot easier to believe the Kioti US people are lying. You still need to get that external clutch until this gets sorted out. As several folks have noted, this is dangerous and it's probably the reason you can't disengage the PTO.

The best I can find for now. https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10958 or ISO Standards ICS 65.060.10: Agricultural Tractors and Trailed Vehicles.

My tractor's internal PTO overrun clutch is working so I cannot make a complaint; however, you can! https://www.osha.gov/pls/osha7/eComplaintForm.html

 

[rider7767]

it is very difficult for me to believe the the overunning clutch was removed from later models.. I am just having a real problem with that. That sounds like a cock and bull story to me. Yes old ford tractors from 70 years ago did not have overunning clutches, but a lot of stupid things were done 70 years ago. And a lot of those tractors were shoved into fences, and over embankments etc too. I realize the number of CK20 sold as manual transmissions are probably small as the majority of them are sold with the independent PTO on the hydrostat model. But still if you are going to offer a manual transmission model with a PTO it should be safe! And then to design it with an overrunning clutch, and obviously many out there have them, and now we are to believe they just took it out? If this is true it is lawsuit time.

You said it!

 

[rider7767]

Thank you Tony. I see you have a CK20S and that is what I was looking for. So does your tractor stop on its own when you depress the main clutch before the brush hog stops spinning. On mine I have to press the brake hard and that will stop the mower and the brush hog at the same time and I have to do this before shifting.
My Kioti shop manual shows an overrunning clutch built in the unit but the USA Kioti office in NC says I don't have one and so does my dealer. I hate to buy something to add if I already have one built in. The tractor is under warranty so I prefer getting the dealer fix the problem if I have an overriding clutch built in as the manual shows.

What year was your tractor built?

 

[LD1]

Before you decide to go any further and/or press the legal issue, I would get it in writing that kiotiUSA told you they removed the ORC, and didnt update any of the manuals, or online diagrams, or even notify the dealers.


I'd be curious to see a kioti dealer chime in here or something. Cause I agree with k0ua. Sounds like they are feeding you BS.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Before you decide to go any further and/or press the legal issue, I would get it in writing that kiotiUSA told you they removed the ORC, and didnt update any of the manuals, or online diagrams, or even notify the dealers.


I'd be curious to see a kioti dealer chime in here or something. Cause I agree with k0ua. Sounds like they are feeding you BS.

:thumbsup: ... Or change design so the ORC was not required.

 

[KiotiJason]

I've got a DS3510 manual gear box it's a 2013 and I have never experienced anything like a Pto over running clutch. I also own and gave driven a Fordson Power Major and again never experienced it. I don't really understand how it can happen with a two stage clutch. Once you go all of the way down it disengages the Pto and you can put out of gear or stop. I'm not remotely mechanical and when I read the first post I assumed it was some type of clutch problem....

 

[rider7767]

I've got a DS3510 manual gear box it's a 2013 and I have never experienced anything like a Pto over running clutch. I also own and gave driven a Fordson Power Major and again never experienced it. I don't really understand how it can happen with a two stage clutch. Once you go all of the way down it disengages the Pto and you can put out of gear or stop. I'm not remotely mechanical and when I read the first post I assumed it was some type of clutch problem....

The CK20S manual does not have a 2 stage clutch.

 

[k0ua]

I've got a DS3510 manual gear box it's a 2013 and I have never experienced anything like a Pto over running clutch. I also own and gave driven a Fordson Power Major and again never experienced it. I don't really understand how it can happen with a two stage clutch. Once you go all of the way down it disengages the Pto and you can put out of gear or stop. I'm not remotely mechanical and when I read the first post I assumed it was some type of clutch problem....

Let me take a shot at explaining the problem. With a 2 stage clutch like you are used to, there is no problem, because as you let out the clutch a little bit the first thing to engage is the PTO, and you can wait for the implement to "spin up" before you let out some more to engage the final drive and make the tractor move. Likewise if you press in on the clutch the tractor can be brought to a smooth stop while the implement mass is still engaged and being driven by the engine. Again no problem and this is a pretty good system. Now, that said, the cheaper tractors, like my old Kubota B7500 and the Kioti CK20S both with standard transmissions never had 2 stage clutches for PTO operation.

They just have transmission driven PTO's with a single stage clutch.. You let out the clutch the tractor begins to move and the PTO implement starts to spin up. Not worth a crap for baling hay, or rotary cutting for that matter. You need to start a rotary cutter raised up a bit so you don't choke it immediately until it gets spun up.

The bigger and heavier the cutter the worse it is. BUT they are supposed to be safe in that as you push the clutch in to change gears or for any reason, the over running clutch built into the PTO drive line does not allow the spinning mass of the implement to drive the rear wheels with power to continue moving the tractor forward even though the engine is disengaged from the driveline by the main single stage clutch being pushed in. The "ratcheting or clicking" sound you hear is the overrunning clutch doing it's job.

The overrunning clutch is supposed to allow power to be transferred from the transmission but NOT back into the transmission from the spinning mass.

Some of the old Fords, from 70 years ago did not have any internal overrunning clutch, and they exhibited the same problem the OP is talking about. The inability to stop the "darn" tractor when the clutch is pushed in and he is standing on the brakes and the tractor is still moving until the energy in the spinning mass is converted to heat by the brake pads.

This is very dangerous, and caused injuries or even fatalities back "in the day".. It ain't supposed to happen in 2014.

 

[rider7767]

Let me take a shot at explaining the problem. With a 2 stage clutch like you are used to, there is no problem, because as you let out the clutch a little bit the first thing to engage is the PTO, and you can wait for the implement to "spin up" before you let out some more to engage the final drive and make the tractor move. Likewise if you press in on the clutch the tractor can be brought to a smooth stop while the implement mass is still engaged and being driven by the engine. Again no problem and this is a pretty good system. Now, that said, the cheaper tractors, like my old Kubota B7500 and the Kioti CK20S both with standard transmissions never had 2 stage clutches for PTO operation.

They just have transmission driven PTO's with a single stage clutch.. You let out the clutch the tractor begins to move and the PTO implement starts to spin up. Not worth a crap for baling hay, or rotary cutting for that matter. You need to start a rotary cutter raised up a bit so you don't choke it immediately until it gets spun up.

The bigger and heavier the cutter the worse it is. BUT they are supposed to be safe in that as you push the clutch in to change gears or for any reason, the over running clutch built into the PTO drive line does not allow the spinning mass of the implement to drive the rear wheels with power to continue moving the tractor forward even though the engine is disengaged from the driveline by the main single stage clutch being pushed in. The "ratcheting or clicking" sound you hear is the overrunning clutch doing it's job.

The overrunning clutch is supposed to allow power to be transferred from the transmission but NOT back into the transmission from the spinning mass.

Some of the old Fords, from 70 years ago did not have any internal overrunning clutch, and they exhibited the same problem the OP is talking about. The inability to stop the "darn" tractor when the clutch is pushed in and he is standing on the brakes and the tractor is still moving until the energy in the spinning mass is converted to heat by the brake pads.

This is very dangerous, and caused injuries or even fatalities back "in the day".. It ain't supposed to happen in 2014.

Very well put

 

[boggen]

The best I can find for now. https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10958 or ISO Standards ICS 65.060.10: Agricultural Tractors and Trailed Vehicles.

My tractor's internal PTO overrun clutch is working so I cannot make a complaint; however, you can! https://www.osha.gov/pls/osha7/eComplaintForm.html

the problem with OSHO. is that it is required for a company to provide X doing. if you are using it for personal doings. and using it yourself. OSHO rules do not apply, correct? or do things kick in, as soon as someone else jumps on the seat?

on other hand. if product was marketed, with ORC (over running clutch), and it does not have one.... someone is in trouble.

 

[rider7767]

the problem with OSHO. is that it is required for a company to provide X doing. if you are using it for personal doings. and using it yourself. OSHO rules do not apply, correct? or do things kick in, as soon as someone else jumps on the seat?

on other hand. if product was marketed, with ORC (over running clutch), and it does not have one.... someone is in trouble.

OSHA starts as soon as it comes in the country. 20 hp and above. The manufacturer has no idea who is going to buy it, company or personal. Furthermore, farmers are protect under OSHA. Even though it may have been bought for personal use, Kioti (company) is not relieved from the responsibility.

 

[KiotiJason]

Let me take a shot at explaining the problem. With a 2 stage clutch like you are used to, there is no problem, because as you let out the clutch a little bit the first thing to engage is the PTO, and you can wait for the implement to "spin up" before you let out some more to engage the final drive and make the tractor move. Likewise if you press in on the clutch the tractor can be brought to a smooth stop while the implement mass is still engaged and being driven by the engine. Again no problem and this is a pretty good system. Now, that said, the cheaper tractors, like my old Kubota B7500 and the Kioti CK20S both with standard transmissions never had 2 stage clutches for PTO operation.

They just have transmission driven PTO's with a single stage clutch.. You let out the clutch the tractor begins to move and the PTO implement starts to spin up. Not worth a crap for baling hay, or rotary cutting for that matter. You need to start a rotary cutter raised up a bit so you don't choke it immediately until it gets spun up.

The bigger and heavier the cutter the worse it is. BUT they are supposed to be safe in that as you push the clutch in to change gears or for any reason, the over running clutch built into the PTO drive line does not allow the spinning mass of the implement to drive the rear wheels with power to continue moving the tractor forward even though the engine is disengaged from the driveline by the main single stage clutch being pushed in. The "ratcheting or clicking" sound you hear is the overrunning clutch doing it's job.

The overrunning clutch is supposed to allow power to be transferred from the transmission but NOT back into the transmission from the spinning mass.

Some of the old Fords, from 70 years ago did not have any internal overrunning clutch, and they exhibited the same problem the OP is talking about. The inability to stop the "darn" tractor when the clutch is pushed in and he is standing on the brakes and the tractor is still moving until the energy in the spinning mass is converted to heat by the brake pads.

This is very dangerous, and caused injuries or even fatalities back "in the day".. It ain't supposed to happen in 2014.

Thanks for the explanation, I can't imagine why they would produce such a dangerous arrangement on a tractor. Just like ROPS the tractors effected should be fitted with outboard clutches... My ol Fordson can be a bit of a beast at the best of times I couldn't imagine dealing with this as well. I don't know if you guys have found it this way but, even though on tractors you are moving and going slow, things can go wrong very quickly...

 

[k0ua]

I don't know if you guys have found it this way but, even though on tractors you are moving and going slow, things can go wrong very quickly.

Yes, yes, they can. You are dealing with a lot of torque and traction..

 

[BethelHntr]

This question is for any owner of a Kioti CK20S manual tractor. I own a 2013 CK20s manual tractor. Not HST. When I connect a brush hog to the PTO all works correctly, I let out the clutch, the tractor begins to move forward and the mower and pto spin up as expected. When I want to stop, I press the main tractor clutch fully down and the tractor will not stop moving forward, the PTO will not disengage and the tractor continues to move forward until the mower quits turning. I can force the tractor and mower to stop by using great force on the brake. This is dangerous because even with using the tractor brake it takes 4 - 6 feet to stop the tractor and mower. Both the tractor and mower stop by pressing the brake with enough force applied. I cannot use the PTO shifting lever to take the PTO out of gear because it grinds and will not shift the PTO out of gear until the mower completely quits turning. I also cannot put the tractor in Neutral until the mower completely quits turning because again the main transmission will grind. Once the mower stops turning and I take the PTO out of gear with the PTO shift lever everything is back to normal except the PTO is disengaged and I cannot use my mower without repeating the same situation of having to stop the tractor and mower with the brake.

I also have two other tractors and both of them will roll to a stop quickly while mowing whenever I press in the main tractor clutch and the mower keeps spinning. Never have these other tractors been forced forward by the momentum of the brush hog and never have I been forced to use the brake to stop both the mower and tractor, just pushing in the main clutch will allow the tractor to roll to a stop in short order.

I have a workshop manual for this model of tractor and it shows an overrunning clutch built into the transmission for the PTO which I believe is supposed to disengage the PTO immediately when the main tractor clutch is depressed and I am thinking it is stuck and does not release correctly. My question to any CK20S manual transmission owner that has used a Brush or Bush Hog with your tractor is this the way your tractor works. When you push in the main clutch on your tractor do you have to force the mower to stop by using the brake and does your tractor continue to move forward from the flywheel effect of your brush hog the mower?

I don't know if this will help your situation or not but I ran around on a little kubota b 7200 for years without a live pto. When engaging the pto the tractor transmission should be in neutral, Let the clutch out this gets the blades spinning then push the clutch back in and select the proper gear needed, It's a two step process. When coming to a stop push the clutch in to disengage the pto let the clutch back out and you are still in gear with the mower coasting.

Might be worth a try.

 

[paulfun9]

I would copy the page they have posted link to and walk into the dealership with it in hand and ask if they are going to make the machine conform to the law, return my money, replace the tractor with one that complies or waste their money and time in court. If your not the type to walk in and do so pay an attorney to inform them of your intention to seek legal action against both the dealership and Kioti.

 

[k0ua]

What I would do first is tear down the PTO driveline and find out if the parts are in there and broken, or not in there. I have a tendency to find out things for my self when faced with conflicting or suspect information.

 

[oldpilgrim]

wouldn't you be able to determine if the clutch is actually installed by manually turning the pto shaft in reverse rotation ?

It seems like the 'ratchet' mechanism, if installed, would click away if you turned the shaft backwards.

 

[rider7767]

wouldn't you be able to determine if the clutch is actually installed by manually turning the pto shaft in reverse rotation ?

It seems like the 'ratchet' mechanism, if installed, would click away if you turned the shaft backwards.

My internal PTO overrun clutch works very well on my CK20S with manual transmission: however, I am not sure I could turn it by hand. I will give it a try.

 

[oldpilgrim]

try a stilson wrench on it.