Mowing PTO won't disengage when using brush hog

[fsrtraveler]

This question is for any owner of a Kioti CK20S manual tractor. I own a 2013 CK20s manual tractor. Not HST. When I connect a brush hog to the PTO all works correctly, I let out the clutch, the tractor begins to move forward and the mower and pto spin up as expected. When I want to stop, I press the main tractor clutch fully down and the tractor will not stop moving forward, the PTO will not disengage and the tractor continues to move forward until the mower quits turning. I can force the tractor and mower to stop by using great force on the brake. This is dangerous because even with using the tractor brake it takes 4 - 6 feet to stop the tractor and mower. Both the tractor and mower stop by pressing the brake with enough force applied. I cannot use the PTO shifting lever to take the PTO out of gear because it grinds and will not shift the PTO out of gear until the mower completely quits turning. I also cannot put the tractor in Neutral until the mower completely quits turning because again the main transmission will grind. Once the mower stops turning and I take the PTO out of gear with the PTO shift lever everything is back to normal except the PTO is disengaged and I cannot use my mower without repeating the same situation of having to stop the tractor and mower with the brake.

I also have two other tractors and both of them will roll to a stop quickly while mowing whenever I press in the main tractor clutch and the mower keeps spinning. Never have these other tractors been forced forward by the momentum of the brush hog and never have I been forced to use the brake to stop both the mower and tractor, just pushing in the main clutch will allow the tractor to roll to a stop in short order.

I have a workshop manual for this model of tractor and it shows an overrunning clutch built into the transmission for the PTO which I believe is supposed to disengage the PTO immediately when the main tractor clutch is depressed and I am thinking it is stuck and does not release correctly. My question to any CK20S manual transmission owner that has used a Brush or Bush Hog with your tractor is this the way your tractor works. When you push in the main clutch on your tractor do you have to force the mower to stop by using the brake and does your tractor continue to move forward from the flywheel effect of your brush hog the mower?

 

[SSdoxie]

I don't have this style tractor but it certainly sounds like the over-run clutch is hung up/stuck. Two possible solutions:
1. Take pto assembly out and repair it,
2. Buy an external PTO Over-run Clutch adapter that fastens on the existing PTO shaft.

 

[k0ua]

This question is for any owner of a Kioti CK20S manual tractor. I own a 2013 CK20s manual tractor. Not HST. When I connect a brush hog to the PTO all works correctly, I let out the clutch, the tractor begins to move forward and the mower and pto spin up as expected. When I want to stop, I press the main tractor clutch fully down and the tractor will not stop moving forward, the PTO will not disengage and the tractor continues to move forward until the mower quits turning. I can force the tractor and mower to stop by using great force on the brake. This is dangerous because even with using the tractor brake it takes 4 - 6 feet to stop the tractor and mower. Both the tractor and mower stop by pressing the brake with enough force applied. I cannot use the PTO shifting lever to take the PTO out of gear because it grinds and will not shift the PTO out of gear until the mower completely quits turning. I also cannot put the tractor in Neutral until the mower completely quits turning because again the main transmission will grind. Once the mower stops turning and I take the PTO out of gear with the PTO shift lever everything is back to normal except the PTO is disengaged and I cannot use my mower without repeating the same situation of having to stop the tractor and mower with the brake.

I also have two other tractors and both of them will roll to a stop quickly while mowing whenever I press in the main tractor clutch and the mower keeps spinning. Never have these other tractors been forced forward by the momentum of the brush hog and never have I been forced to use the brake to stop both the mower and tractor, just pushing in the main clutch will allow the tractor to roll to a stop in short order.

I have a workshop manual for this model of tractor and it shows an overrunning clutch built into the transmission for the PTO which I believe is supposed to disengage the PTO immediately when the main tractor clutch is depressed and I am thinking it is stuck and does not release correctly. My question to any CK20S manual transmission owner that has used a Brush or Bush Hog with your tractor is this the way your tractor works. When you push in the main clutch on your tractor do you have to force the mower to stop by using the brake and does your tractor continue to move forward from the flywheel effect of your brush hog the mower?

I cannot help much, as I don't have and have never operated a CK20S, but like you, I believe the overrunning clutch should operate as advertized, but since it is not operating, it is broken. Hopefully other CK20S owners will chime in here, confirm this.

 

[boggen]

i don't have a clue about about your tractor.

as others noted over running clutch would be first thing came to mind, before even reading rest of your post.

some tractors have a 2 stage clutch, half way down it disconnects drive train, all the way down disconnects PTO if i remember correctly. double check to see if there are any sensors on the clutch pedal, maybe sensor bad or a cable needs to be adjusted.

beyond checking of sensor/cable adjustments, i would suspect over-running clutch malfunction/stuck.

if ya end up going with an external over running clutch, that fits between rear of tractor pto stub, and the shaft going down to implement, you will need to recheck correct PTO shaft lengths. so you do not inadvertently bottom out the PTO shaft into itself and end up messing more up. ((it is normal to buy a longer PTO shaft, and then most likely need to cut it down to correct length for a specific tractor))

most rotatory cutters (bush hogs = brand name) have a "slip clutch" on them. and they do require maintenance to properly set them. including a burn in, when you buy them new. if you have not done so. you may have nailed a rock, stump, tree limb, etc... and instead of slip clutch on the rotatory cutter doing it's job slipping, the impact shock went back into your tractor and damaged something.

Tractor Attachments And Skid Steer Attachments For Any Tractor Or Skid Steer has video's showing/describing how to check and adjust PTO shafts, and adjust slip clutches.

 

[Highgear]

That's the way old tractors worked before Live PTO. That was about 40 years ago ! Sounds like something s wrong !

 

[Sawworcs]

My buddy has the same tractor and he experienced the same problem until he put on an external over run clutch. This fixed the problem. Makes me think that there is no internal over run clutch?

 

[fsrtraveler]

My buddy has the same tractor and he experienced the same problem until he put on an external over run clutch. This fixed the problem. Makes me think that there is no internal over run clutch?

Thank you for your input, this is what I was looking for, some first hand info. Will begin looking for an external overrunning clutch that will fit this tractor.

 

[k0ua]

There are three basic types of PTO control on a farm tractor:

Transmission
The simpliest, and earliest, form of PTO is the transmission PTO. The PTO shaft is directly connected to the tractor's transmission. The PTO is only working when the tractor's clutch is relased, so if you take the tractor out of gear while slowing down the PTO will stop working. This is a disadvantage in applications such as mowing.

An overrunning clutch is often needed with a transmission PTO. Without it, the driven equipment (such as mower blades) will put a force on the PTO shaft, and then the transmssion, due to inertia. The equipment will "drive" the tractor, and you will still move after using the tractor's transmission clutch. An overrunning clutch prevents this from happening by allowing the PTO shaft to freely spin in one direction. In more recent models, this is built into the tractor. In older tractors, it is an extra piece of equipment mounted on the PTO shaft.
Live (two-stage clutch)
A live PTO works with the use of a two-stage clutch. Pressing the clutch half-way will disengage the transmission while pressing it fully will disengage the transmission and the PTO. This allows the operator to slow down or change gears while the PTO is still operating.
Independent
An independent PTO means that the PTO shaft is controlled with a separate clutch. As with a live PTO, this allows for full control over the tractor while separately controlling the PTO. There are two major types of independent PTO; mechanical and hydraulic. A mechanical-independent PTO uses a separate on-off selector, in addition to the PTO control lever. Often the tractor must be stopped or off to change this selector position. A hydraulic-independent PTO uses a single selector.


That said, I still would have thought that the transmission type PTO in the CK20S would have had a built in overrunning clutch.. The CK20HST has an independent PTO.

 

[rider7767]

I own a 2012 CK20S manual transmission. When I push the clutch while brush cutting my tractor goes click, click, click, etc. It has a PTO clutch override built into the tractor. It sound as if something is wrong with yours. According to my manual, all CK20S have the override clutch. My 2 cents. Get it fixed. By adding a PTO override clutch to the tractor, you are adding length to the shaft which puts much pressure on the bearings. This will cause the bearings to fail and the seals to leak prematurely. :thumbsup:

 

[k0ua]

I own a 2012 CK20S manual transmission. When I push the clutch while brush cutting my tractor goes click, click, click, etc. It has a PTO clutch override built into the tractor. It sound as if something is wrong with yours. According to my manual, all CK20S have the override clutch.

That is exactly what I would have thought. My old B7500 manual transmission had a transmission type PTO and it did exactly what you describe when swapping gears/directions. You got a click,click, click sound that matched the speed of the blades in the rotary cutter as it wound down. And of course as soon as you engaged the clutch it spun up the mower blades.

 

[rider7767]

That is exactly what I would have thought. My old B7500 manual transmission had a transmission type PTO and it did exactly what you describe when swapping gears/directions. You got a click,click, click sound that matched the speed of the blades in the rotary cutter as it wound down. And of course as soon as you engaged the clutch it spun up the mower blades.

I love my tractor, but it is the one thing I would change. Live PTO is much better.

 

[k0ua]

I love my tractor, but it is the one thing I would change. Live PTO is much better.

Agreed, either Live if a gear machine or Independent if Hydro or shuttle. But if it is a straight transmission PTO, you Have got to have an overrunning clutch, either built in or external, less you get pushed into something, or over a cliff.:shocked:

 

[fsrtraveler]

Thank you Tony. I see you have a CK20S and that is what I was looking for. So does your tractor stop on its own when you depress the main clutch before the brush hog stops spinning. On mine I have to press the brake hard and that will stop the mower and the brush hog at the same time and I have to do this before shifting.
My Kioti shop manual shows an overrunning clutch built in the unit but the USA Kioti office in NC says I don't have one and so does my dealer. I hate to buy something to add if I already have one built in. The tractor is under warranty so I prefer getting the dealer fix the problem if I have an overriding clutch built in as the manual shows.

 

[rider7767]

Thank you Tony. I see you have a CK20S and that is what I was looking for. So does your tractor stop on its own when you depress the main clutch before the brush hog stops spinning. On mine I have to press the brake hard and that will stop the mower and the brush hog at the same time and I have to do this before shifting.
My Kioti shop manual shows an overrunning clutch built in the unit but the USA Kioti office in NC says I don't have one and so does my dealer. I hate to buy something to add if I already have one built in. The tractor is under warranty so I prefer getting the dealer fix the problem if I have an overriding clutch built in as the manual shows.

Pictures are worth thousands of words. What about a YouTube?
CK20S PTO Override clutch: http://youtu.be/Xc4SZFLjJZs
Who ever you talked to is miss informed. Since the early 90s, tractor company could not sell tractors without a ROPS or with a direct drive through the drive line PTO. It has to be live or with a built in override clutch. Further more, it is a serious law suit waiting to happen. I work for the government and deal with OSHA all the time. Someone fed you a line of bull. I think the CK20S with manual transmission is the only tractor Kioto makes which has this setup anymore.

 

[k0ua]

I am not a very good mechanic, but look at parts 12 and 14, the clutch cam part A and part B.. Looks like a one way clutch cam to me.

Error

 

[rider7767]

I am not a very good mechanic, but look at parts 12 and 14, the clutch cam part A and part B.. Looks like a one way clutch cam to me.

Error

K0ua, I think you are right on. I hate to think they will have to tear into that new tractor's transmission, but after looking into my repair manual, I don't see any other way.

 

[LD1]

certainly sounds like the ORC is messed up. A 2013 should still be under warranty. Contact the dealer.

After it is fixed, if it was mine, I'd put an external ORC on there to save wear and tear on the internal one. Cause next time it may not be uder warranty.

 

[rider7767]

The clicking noise heard in the video scared the crap out of me the first time it happened.

 

[fsrtraveler]

I called the national Kioti office about my overriding clutch issue after I posted it in this forum and also emailed them with the following information from my Kioti "Shop Manual" for this tractor model "the page number that shows the internal overriding clutch is 4-9 in the CK20S Kioti Shop Manual. Item number 3 in the pictorial. It also has a notation below the pictorial describing the function of the internal overriding clutch. This notation is on page 4-10 Item C, and reads as follows " A one-way clutch is utilized on the PTO output shaft of the 6 x 2 gear transmission model tractor. The one way clutch transmits power in one direction only and is free wheeling in the other." The 6 x 2 is my tractor the CK20s, and if this statement were accurate, it would prevent the tractor from being driven by the momentum of the brush hog. Perhaps the CK20S Kioti Shop Manual, part number #SS30-W00 and printed Nov. 20011 is a misprint."

I got a response from the engineer at Kioti through the customer service department that told me that the manual is in error and that Kioti did take out the overriding clutch and did not correct the Shop Manual. My dealer did not know this and was relying on his national rep for information. By the way my local dealer has been very supportive with this issue helping me to resolve this issue but like myself has to rely on Kioti USA service support.

Bottom line, according to Kioti USA engineers in North Carolina Kioti took out the built in overriding clutch and did not tell us. They also don't provide the 1/4" hole through the PTO spline so there is no way to attach the external overriding clutch that costs about $50 and is currently about the only external overriding clutch available. I did finally find an overriding clutch with the quick disconnect and ordered it today but they are very rare. If you need one they can be had at "http://www.hoyetractor.com/PROD/search/OR-660.htm" for $65. What I find hard to believe is that in 2014 a tractor company would sell a tractor without an overriding clutch, then on top of that they don't put a hole through the PTO spline to allow connection of the most common type of overriding clutch available today. An internal overriding clutch is stronger, better lubricated, requires less maintenance and does not put an extra load on the external PTO shaft coming out of the back of the tractor.

This is a very unsafe practice and leaves Kioti open for a law suit. Apparently Kioti's product strategy does not feel the need for model CK20s, the new CK2510 and I believe their 30 HP model to have the ability to use a Brush Hog. At least to use a Brush Hog safely without being driven by the brush hog when pressing in the clutch.

As a final note I called all the Kioti dealers in two states (there are not many) when I was trying to determine if I had a built in overriding clutch as depicted in my shop manual and discovered almost all the Kioti dealers were new dealers with only months as a dealer, no experience on this issue and service personnel that did not even understand what an overriding clutch was. I guess I should have researched the Kioti product line in more detail prior to purchasing my tractor. I have had three Kubota's and they all have had a built in overriding clutch and the dealer network has always been able to provide complete service support. My only salvation with this ordeal is that my local dealer has helped me out as much as possible.

 

[ritcheyvs]

For rider7767 (post 14): Can you provide a reference for a legal requirement for the overrunning clutch? I don't doubt the requirement, I just don't know where to look.

For fsrtraveler: If Kioti is in violation of OSHA or legal requirements, burn them. Personally, I think you have a broken tractor and you are being fed a line of crap from the clowns in Wendell NC. This is not any kind of sight on tar heels in general. If I look at the online parts diagram (Parts Diagram) parts 12, 14, and 15 sure look like an over-running clutch to me. The parts diagram does not indicate any alternate configurations. We have all seen errors in Kioti documentation, but discontinuing this clutch would be awful stupid. I don't think Koreans are that stupid. It's a lot easier to believe the Kioti US people are lying. You still need to get that external clutch until this gets sorted out. As several folks have noted, this is dangerous and it's probably the reason you can't disengage the PTO.