Everlast plasma?

[MossRoad]

Not quite sure what you are alluding to here...can you explain?

Sure I can explain... here goes....
You promoted your product and company. Got into an argument with a competitor. Offered free factory tours. Asked people to PM you if they wanted information, and offered to investigate a customer complaint. But said you aren't selling anything. That's like saying the owner of a grocery store isn't selling anything because he isn't manning the cash register. You're an owner of the company. You're promoting the product and company. That's advertising.

Sometimes we forget that paid advertisers are what keeps this forum free to its members. Seems like you have a good product(s) and company. That's why I suggested you contact the owners of TBN to see about becoming a paid advertiser. Just that simple.

 

[Scooby074]

You mean the thread that was closed because people wouldn't stop with the personal attacks and insults? Feel free to start a new one if you want.

Aaron Z

Personal Attacks? Im referring denying, deleting, and deflection of a serious safety issue.

 

[aczlan]

Personal Attacks? Im referring denying, deleting, and deflection of a serious safety issue.

Hmmm, look again around post 269 (link: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...eresting-letter-rcmp-today-7.html#post3799406 )
If it weren't for that, the thread would still be open and if someone were to start a new thread, it would remain open as long as it stayed civil...

Aaron Z

 

[Scooby074]

Hmmm, look again around post 269 (link: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...eresting-letter-rcmp-today-7.html#post3799406 )
If it weren't for that, the thread would still be open and if someone were to start a new thread, it would remain open as long as it stayed civil...

Aaron Z

Seemed like a pretty weak comment to close the thread.

The greater problem is how the situation was handled by the company after they were caught and their dishonesty in putting on fake labels in the first place.
...oh right.. it was the idiots in the factory that did that, management had no idea even though they have staff in the plant (or so they say)

Wonder if anyone got a comment back from Sutherland at the RCMP?

 

[aczlan]

Seemed like a pretty weak comment to close the thread.

Thats because the stronger ones were moved to the recycle bin.

The greater problem is how the situation was handled by the company after they were caught and their dishonesty in putting on fake labels in the first place.
...oh right.. it was the idiots in the factory that did that, management had no idea even though they have staff in the plant (or so they say)

From what I understand, the opinion of the RCMP is that they "knowingly sold welders with Counterfeit labels" and thats what they pressed charges on. HOWEVER, I have not been able to find court documents showing what the judge thought of it. From what I understand, the court allowed (or at least did not prohibit) Everlast to continue importing and selling uncertified welders for a period of time while they revamped their production and got certified (perhaps that's when they started having someone on site at the factory?) so it makes me wonder if there is anything more than a label/trademark dispute but I have nothing more than hearsay to go on either way.

Wonder if anyone got a comment back from Sutherland at the RCMP?

I spoke with him at length, and got some info back that I would be happy to share in a thread about the topic so that we don't drag this one further astray.
Based on the research I did, it appears that the products currently listed on the Everlast Canada website meet both the US and Canadian ETL standards and are legal for sale in Canada.

Aaron Z

 

[Furu]

Thats because the stronger ones were moved to the recycle bin.


From what I understand, the opinion of the RCMP is that they "knowingly sold welders with Counterfeit labels" and thats what they pressed charges on. HOWEVER, I have not been able to find court documents showing what the judge thought of it. From what I understand, the court allowed (or at least did not prohibit) Everlast to continue importing and selling uncertified welders for a period of time while they revamped their production and got certified (perhaps that's when they started having someone on site at the factory?) so it makes me wonder if there is anything more than a label/trademark dispute but I have nothing more than hearsay to go on either way.


I spoke with him at length, and got some info back that I would be happy to share in a thread about the topic so that we don't drag this one further astray.
Based on the research I did, it appears that the products currently listed on the Everlast Canada website meet both the US and Canadian ETL standards and are legal for sale in Canada.

Aaron Z

I for one would really enjoy finding out more FACTS about the issue from someone that can logically put facts together without getting into hyperbole.

If you would start a new thread with what you have found out from your conversation with the RCMP and independent research that would be informative.

Thank you

 

[jimcolt]

The original poster asked specifically if he should buy the import, or spend the "extra" for a Hypertherm unit. Immediately the importer posted a link to sale prices for their product (nothing wrong with that, that's what you should expect from a paid advertiser). Someone else posted about a sale on a Hypertherm 30 at Airgas locations....and someone else mentioned they thought Hypertherm had discontinued that product. Another poster mentioned the "stiff" leads on the Hypertherm, and another mentioned that they really were not made in the USA.

I figured as someone who could answer honestly and truthfully all of the above posts...that I should respond, which I did. Did not offer any deals or promotions, simply replied, answering each question. Regarding the tours...the first post was from a resident of the small state of NH.....where I live, and Hypertherm is located. What better way to show what goes into every product than to watch them all being built...probably less than an hour and a half away from home? And I never said free tours.....don't need to as we certainly would never charge for one! I have even toured a couple of importers through our facilities.

Because I work for Hypertherm, and because I am an owner (all 1500 of us are), does not mean I am necessarily advertising. Expect that when questions are unanswered regarding any Hypertherm product that I will likely do my best to answer them. The decision on what product fits the users needs depends on a lot of factors.....the job of the manufacturer is to ensure that the information to answer all pertinent questions is easily and readily available. If you want someone to quote prices and provide a deal on one of our products you need to go to a distributor that sells them.

In regards to offering contact via PM...I work with somewhere between 25 and 100 end users that have plasma cutting issues...(cut quality, consumable life, programming techniques, hand cutting issues, unique applications, etc). Every week. Doesn't matter what brand or model, I help users get their systems dialed in.....sometimes the systems are imports and other US brands. My company realizes that if you offer your services to anyone that needs advice....then someday that user may make their own decision to switch to your product. It certainly is easier to go back and forth regarding pictures, troubleshooting, looking at cut files and M code via direct email than it is to do so on an open forum....although I do that as well.

Call it advertising if you want, I prefer to think that I am offering information as a trusted advisor with 36 years of hands on plasma cutting experience.

Jim Colt Hypertherm

Sure I can explain... here goes....
You promoted your product and company. Got into an argument with a competitor. Offered free factory tours. Asked people to PM you if they wanted information, and offered to investigate a customer complaint. But said you aren't selling anything. That's like saying the owner of a grocery store isn't selling anything because he isn't manning the cash register. You're an owner of the company. You're promoting the product and company. That's advertising.

Sometimes we forget that paid advertisers are what keeps this forum free to its members. Seems like you have a good product(s) and company. That's why I suggested you contact the owners of TBN to see about becoming a paid advertiser. Just that simple.

 

[muddstopper]

So I know there is a loyal everlast welder following here.


I'm interested in getting a plasma and have been doing some research for a while. It seems hypertherm is the gold standard. And have, until recently, had the price tag to match. But the powermax30 can now be had for under $1000.

The everlast power plasma 50 is 799 on amazon. It is more powerful but I don't really NEED the 50 amps.


Any love for the everlast plasma? Or spend the extra and get the hypertherm?

Everybody in their own desires, has decided Jim just jumped into a thread about Everlast in an effort to advertise his company's equipment. I point you to the original first post in this thread. It is very easy for anybody with half a brain to see that the OP did in fact ask a specific question about Hypertherm machines. If everyone would just get off their high horses, they could see that Jim just posted information concerning the equipment he represents, as was asked for by the OP, and never in any of the followup post said anything that could be considered a putdown of Everlast or any other company. I think some of you folks should be ashamed of how you have represented your personal Opinions in something that really doesnt add anything of value to this thread. Further replys of Advertiseing without sponsorship is just the little boy crying wolf. I dont have a dime invested in either Everlast or Hypertherm equipment. I dont know Jim Colt or Mark of Everlast, I am just calling it as I see it. Just my Opinons, just the same as some of the Other useless Opinons expressed by other members in this thread.

Just to add so as to not be misunderstood. In the past I have Pm'm both Mark and Jim with questions concerning their equipment. I found both people to be extremely helpful in providing answers to any questions I have had. In Discussions about equipment, Neither Jim or Mark at anytime had anything, good or bad, to say about any other manufacturer. Both provided me with the information requested, both pointed out the major selling points of the equipment they represent, as any salesman should. If I was in the market for a new piece of equipment, I feel I could trust either person to give me the support I need in making a purchase decision.

 

[Rustyiron]

^^^^Good one! Geez, the color of you're welding gear is MORE touch'y than the color of your tractor or the emblem on you're truck. I "see it" like mud stopper does.:thumbsup:

 

[Jesse masterson]

just want to say , I can't blame anyone for defending there product, human nature. I will say I am just a humble consumer , middle class, I have never farmed thousands of acres or have major tractor companies call me for advice, only built things for myself and sometimes I have to do it 3 or 4 times to make it work it in the end it always works for me. Having said that I have a hypertherm 600, had it for several years and have not had one problem,I would by another in a New York second,I have a miller mig 210 and a Hobart lx acdc stick! And a millermatic 135 mig, they are all fine machine and would buy them again, I wouldn't rule out a everlast though and might someday buy one but hypertherm is a very very fine product with excellent reputation that's hard to beat.

 

[KubotaOwner]

Au Contraire..

On other weld forums, anything derogatory to everlast is promptly deleted, and/or subsequently locked. Posters with issues are even advised not to post their problems any longer, because they WILL be deleted. everlast pays to control this forum, and you do it rather effectively. I have less problem with everlast being an inferior Chinese product, that the manner in which these "bought and paid for" forums are administrated.
Just notice how a competitor, and one that offers a quality piece of equipment, are treated.

So, how are complaints handled?? Do you mean to say that of all the low quality equipment sold here there are no problems??

While it's true I was born at night .... It wasn't LAST night.

I own 2 Everlast products, PA 160STH and a PP60 that I use regularly and am VERY pleased with their construction, performance and reliability. I have NO problem recommending these products. "American made" is meaningless anymore. Populating a circuit board and running it through a soldering machine isn't rocket science anymore. Infant mortality is the predominant cause of failure of electronics and if the manufacturer has a competent Environmental Stress Screening program, it will minimize problems in these areas. People who dismiss products simply because they were made in China are deluding themselves.

 

[jimcolt]

"American made" is meaningless anymore."

To this statement....this is certainly debatable. If you value buying products that have the labor content of their manufacturing done by taxpaying US workers that earn a respectable living (enough to support their families and childrens health and education)...then American made is not meaningless. It means something to me for sure.

In many cases, American Made means that the product was designed and engineered in America, reliability tested in America, assembled with accepted quality control practices here, and supported after the sale from the same location it was designed at. That means something in regards to a good quality product that will have some long term support.

" Populating a circuit board and running it through a soldering machine isn't rocket science anymore. Infant mortality is the predominant cause of failure of electronics and if the manufacturer has a competent Environmental Stress Screening program, it will minimize problems in these areas"

This statement is true. This is why (as an example) Iphones are produced in China with excellent performance and quality. This adds cost to product no matter where it was built! Imagine what an Iphone would cost if the workers made more than $2/hour!

However in the case of products "made in America" previously discussed on this thread....there is more done than just "populating a circuit board". In well designed and built products the circuit boards are designed for specific performance, application and MTBF (mean time before failure). In the case of plasma circuit boards ...they have to be designed to control current, to control output pulse width modulated waveforms, to work with specific torches to properly time the power up and down ramps, air pressure and flow timing, starting (pilot) current, etc.) Use a different torch and these functions must change. Well....only if you care about cut quality and consumable life!

Many of the low cost plasma units have interchangeable boards, work with a variety of generic torches (mostly copies of old designs), and are not conformally coated, HiPot tested...or CE/CSA approved. Simply not the same. Yes, all plasma cutters cut metal. No, they do not cut with exactly the same quality, and the consumable life varies wildly from design to other designs.

Again though.....if low cost is more important than cut quality, reliability and operating cost...then the low cost welders and plasma systems may be the best option. It is great to have a wide range of choices!

Jim Colt



Populating a circuit board and running it through a soldering machine isn't rocket science anymore. Infant mortality is the predominant cause of failure of electronics and if the manufacturer has a competent Environmental Stress Screening program, it will minimize problems in these areas. People who dismiss products simply because they were made in China are deluding themselves.[/QUOTE]

 

[newbury]

if the manufacturer has a competent Environmental Stress Screening program, it will minimize problems in these areas. People who dismiss products simply because they were made in China are deluding themselves.

I think that many times, as for example Harbor Freight stuff, the Chinese quality control is left to the end consumer. If it fails they replace it. My Chinese, Jinma, chipper has a bolt hole for the chute drilled wrong, I live with it.

But then American mfg messes up also. My Woodmizer LT10 came with the motor mounting plate only having three holes for a motor with 4 bolts. Sure, send it back, be without for who knows how long, or fix it myself.

Since so often the failure rate on the complicated electronics is highest when new failures during the early warranty period are taken care of under warranty.

But since I was able to get an everlast 300 amp stick welder for $280 versus a miller for a few thousand the tradeoffs were too great.

It seems to me that there are a lot of American companies now that are relying on lawyers for their "Made in the USA" labels. They only have to produce "a substantial portion" of the item in the US.

As a wannabe hobby welder the cost of the initial equipment was always what prevented me from getting a welder. I probably should have jumped on the Everlast 80 plasma cutter at the Amazon price in the second post, but $250 is about what SWMBO considers "no questions asked". $700 would have brought "do you really need that since you haven't used your 300 amp welder yet?". And I'm sure $1,000 for a Hypertherm would have caused dissension.

 

[jimcolt]

Just being an American manufacturer certainly does not ensure quality or performance. You have to have the correct procedures and the ability to produce consistent products. ISO9001, CSA, CE, UL and other organizations help you meet standards and be consistent, but internal controls, policies and "Black Belt" quality control people are what makes good consistent quality. That can be done anywhere, but it does take extra effort and it does affect the price of products no matter where they are built / assembled.

I am 100% sure that we could build Hypertherm plasma cutters anywhere in the world, as long as the factories were set up the same, all of the control procedures were the same, and you compensated your employees to the point that they actually enjoy coming to work. Good pay and benefits, profit sharing or an ESOP employee ownership program. Trust me....ownership makes a difference in the quality of the product as well as the productivity of the workforce.

Jim Colt Hypertherm

 

[BlacknTan]

I own 2 Everlast products, PA 160STH and a PP60 that I use regularly and am VERY pleased with their construction, performance and reliability. I have NO problem recommending these products. "American made" is meaningless anymore. Populating a circuit board and running it through a soldering machine isn't rocket science anymore. Infant mortality is the predominant cause of failure of electronics and if the manufacturer has a competent Environmental Stress Screening program, it will minimize problems in these areas. People who dismiss products simply because they were made in China are deluding themselves.

Does everlast ship free Kool-Aid with these machines??

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten .."

"Quality doesn't cost ... It pays.."

BTW, some of what you say is true about electronics, but there are Mil-Spec components, while not immune to failure, are far more reliable. Does Neverlast, ooooops, sorry, everlast use high quality electronics in their units. Are their units inspected and "run-in" before shipment, or is the consumer the inspector?

Everyone is different .. that's what makes the world go 'round, but if I can't afford a decent tool, I hold off on the purchase until I can.

 

[KubotaOwner]

Does everlast ship free Kool-Aid with these machines??

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten .."

"Quality doesn't cost ... It pays.."

BTW, some of what you say is true about electronics, but there are Mil-Spec components, while not immune to failure, are far more reliable. Does Neverlast, ooooops, sorry, everlast use high quality electronics in their units. Are their units inspected and "run-in" before shipment, or is the consumer the inspector?

Everyone is different .. that's what makes the world go 'round, but if I can't afford a decent tool, I hold off on the purchase until I can.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but most "mil-spec components" today are manufactured outside the US. You could never afford to buy a mil-spec product as an individual. I worked in the military electronics field my entire career and am somewhat familiar. Everlast, like many other high quality welding equipment suppliers, are ISO9001 certified, which is the INTERNATIONAL quality standard for manufacturing.

Your witticsms are certainly relevant which is why you need to be discriminating about where you buy a product. You make your decision based on things like what standards, if any, a product is manufactured to such as ISO9001.

I did not receive Kool-aid with my Everlast products, I received a well made product with a good warranty that, to date has proven to be reliable at a much lower price than many of the competitors. If you prefer to pay lots more for "American made" products - have at it.

 

[KubotaOwner]

"American made" is meaningless anymore."

To this statement....this is certainly debatable. If you value buying products that have the labor content of their manufacturing done by taxpaying US workers that earn a respectable living (enough to support their families and childrens health and education)...then American made is not meaningless. It means something to me for sure.

In many cases, American Made means that the product was designed and engineered in America, reliability tested in America, assembled with accepted quality control practices here, and supported after the sale from the same location it was designed at. That means something in regards to a good quality product that will have some long term support.

" Populating a circuit board and running it through a soldering machine isn't rocket science anymore. Infant mortality is the predominant cause of failure of electronics and if the manufacturer has a competent Environmental Stress Screening program, it will minimize problems in these areas"

This statement is true. This is why (as an example) Iphones are produced in China with excellent performance and quality. This adds cost to product no matter where it was built! Imagine what an Iphone would cost if the workers made more than $2/hour!

However in the case of products "made in America" previously discussed on this thread....there is more done than just "populating a circuit board". In well designed and built products the circuit boards are designed for specific performance, application and MTBF (mean time before failure). In the case of plasma circuit boards ...they have to be designed to control current, to control output pulse width modulated waveforms, to work with specific torches to properly time the power up and down ramps, air pressure and flow timing, starting (pilot) current, etc.) Use a different torch and these functions must change. Well....only if you care about cut quality and consumable life!

Many of the low cost plasma units have interchangeable boards, work with a variety of generic torches (mostly copies of old designs), and are not conformally coated, HiPot tested...or CE/CSA approved. Simply not the same. Yes, all plasma cutters cut metal. No, they do not cut with exactly the same quality, and the consumable life varies wildly from design to other designs.

Again though.....if low cost is more important than cut quality, reliability and operating cost...then the low cost welders and plasma systems may be the best option. It is great to have a wide range of choices!

Jim Colt



Populating a circuit board and running it through a soldering machine isn't rocket science anymore. Infant mortality is the predominant cause of failure of electronics and if the manufacturer has a competent Environmental Stress Screening program, it will minimize problems in these areas. People who dismiss products simply because they were made in China are deluding themselves.

[/QUOTE]

Personally, I can not afford to solve US labor force problems in America with my welder purchases. This is a purely emotional issue and does nothing to counter my argument as to the real value of "American made".

If you are going to sell your products here, why don't you become a sponsor?

 

[KubotaOwner]

Just being an American manufacturer certainly does not ensure quality or performance. You have to have the correct procedures and the ability to produce consistent products. ISO9001, CSA, CE, UL and other organizations help you meet standards and be consistent, but internal controls, policies and "Black Belt" quality control people are what makes good consistent quality. That can be done anywhere, but it does take extra effort and it does affect the price of products no matter where they are built / assembled.

I am 100% sure that we could build Hypertherm plasma cutters anywhere in the world, as long as the factories were set up the same, all of the control procedures were the same, and you compensated your employees to the point that they actually enjoy coming to work. Good pay and benefits, profit sharing or an ESOP employee ownership program. Trust me....ownership makes a difference in the quality of the product as well as the productivity of the workforce.

Jim Colt Hypertherm

I am 100% sure that Hypertherm, or any other manufacturer for that matter, WILL build their products elsewhere in the world if they desire to remain competitive. It is a simple matter of cost of labor and export/import controls at the present time. Cost IS a driving consideration, which is why, company after company are moving many of their operations overseas. The ONLY way you can remain competitive with a higher priced product is if the product is clearly, intrinsically better. Unfortunately in many cases, short of definitive, objective, published reliability and/or performance studies, we are left with anecdotal assessments. "Made in America" or "Chinese junk" is NOT an objective study.

 

[BlacknTan]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but most "mil-spec components" today are manufactured outside the US. You could never afford to buy a mil-spec product as an individual. I worked in the military electronics field my entire career and am somewhat familiar. Everlast, like many other high quality welding equipment suppliers, are ISO9001 certified, which is the INTERNATIONAL quality standard for manufacturing.

Your witticsms are certainly relevant which is why you need to be discriminating about where you buy a product. You make your decision based on things like what standards, if any, a product is manufactured to such as ISO9001.

I did not receive Kool-aid with my Everlast products, I received a well made product with a good warranty that, to date has proven to be reliable at a much lower price than many of the competitors. If you prefer to pay lots more for "American made" products - have at it.

American products are not my only concern .. American jobs are!

It hurts me deeply to see American workers demeaned as their jobs get sent overseas, and they're forced to work as a manager at the local McDonalds. This will definitely hurt the standard of living we have become used to!

 

[jimcolt]

It is not worth arguing with your strong opinions. The biggest gains in our market share have occurred when our competitors started producing off shore.....many are rethinking this, and making costly moves to re-shore some product manufacturing. I suspect that if my company ever manufactured outside of the US the product manufactured would be for the region it was manufactured in. This certainly allows you to build an excellent product with lower logistics / shipping costs, as well as taking advantage of local labor.

On your point that I am "advertising"....I fail to see advertising in my posts. Perhaps you can point this out specifically and I will correct it.

Jim Colt