Improving your welding?

[Shield Arc]

I agree with paulharvey. Let's have a proper series of tests done on 110v welds at the upper end of machine capability. That is the only way to learn and get
beyond the back and forth.

If there are any members here who live in the Puget Sound area who would be willing to loan me their 120-volt Mig welder. I'd be glad to run a side bend test. I'd like to get my hands on another one, with plenty of time to play with it.:cool2:

Here is a vertical up side bend I ran.

 

[downsizingnow48]

Great offer. Hope someone is close.

 

[muddstopper]

Mudd I can see that you understand how to use joint preparation to mitigate the lack of AMPs. Welders do it all the time. It doesn't take but a short time for a competent welder to learn this. I assure you that all the experienced welders on this forum know this intimately, and know very well how they'd any situation if ever stuck with a 110v MIG. Nobody says "you can't weld 1" thick steel with that little 225 Amp welder". All they say is "you can't do it in one pass". But with a 110v welder the general forum wisdom, even from the experienced guys is "you can't do it".

Well, you (often) can. A "110v welder and technique" is not for every welding situation but probably 95% can be done well (with regard to tractor forum projects that I've seen on this forum). More amps is definitely helpful. Sometimes if you don't have amps you can change the design to accommodate. For example add "bracing", or overbuild, which is perfectly acceptable.

Your statement is not not so far off. I think a more defensible statement, if you want to make a universal AMPS statement is "it takes AMPS to efficiently weld thick steel in a fillet weld". Show us the back side of the welded plate

Here's a 3/8" test plate vee'd at (45deg) and welded one pass with 110v. 60deg would have been better, but I was just screwing around. The 1/4" bolt is laying there just to show the size of the weld vee.

I should probably put that in the press and see what it does in bending. I will do that someday if I can remember to bring it to my shop that has the press.

I intended to re-do at 60deg before upsetting the forum but didn't have time, so this is all you get for now . I would weld another at 60-degree example if nobody else is willing. But after the weather cools down, and... if it seems like the forum needs more action . As said before there needs to be a thread "improving your 110v welding".

I am not a pro welder and have never claimed to be, but I can imagine what will happen if you put your 3/8, vee'd plate, with a one pass weld, in a press and start bending. If the weld is on the inside of the bend, I put my money on the weld breaking. Why not show us the back side of that weld.

 

[dragoneggs]

Mudd I can see that you understand how to use joint preparation to mitigate the lack of AMPs. Welders do it all the time. It doesn't take but a short time for a competent welder to learn this. I assure you that all the experienced welders on this forum know this intimately, and know very well how they'd any situation if ever stuck with a 110v MIG. Nobody says "you can't weld 1" thick steel with that little 225 Amp welder". All they say is "you can't do it in one pass". But with a 110v welder the general forum wisdom, even from the experienced guys is "you can't do it".

Well, you (often) can. A "110v welder and technique" is not for every welding situation but probably 95% can be done well (with regard to tractor forum projects that I've seen on this forum). More amps is definitely helpful. Sometimes if you don't have amps you can change the design to accommodate. For example add "bracing", or overbuild, which is perfectly acceptable.

Your statement is not not so far off. I think a more defensible statement, if you want to make a universal AMPS statement is "it takes AMPS to efficiently weld thick steel in a fillet weld".

Here's a 3/8" test plate vee'd at (45deg) and welded one pass with 110v. 60deg would have been better, but I was just screwing around. The 1/4" bolt is laying there just to show the size of the weld vee.

I should probably put that in the press and see what it does in bending. I will do that someday if I can remember to bring it to my shop that has the press.

I intended to re-do at 60deg before upsetting the forum but didn't have time, so this is all you get for now . I would weld another at 60-degree example if nobody else is willing. But after the weather cools down, and... if it seems like the forum needs more action . As said before there needs to be a thread "improving your 110v welding".

Hey Sodo... when I saw the bolt I thought you were going to show us a new high tech technique of using filler rod (bolt) and were going to weld both sides of it to the plate. :laughing: Just joking.

 

[Sodo]

Why not show us the back side of that weld.

cuz it looks like it will bust! :laughing:

If this was something I was "using" I'd weld the backside too then it would never break. But I want to see how (if) the single weld survives a bend test so I didn't weld it.

 

[Arc weld]

What if you can't get at the backside? Test plates prove a welding procedure will provide the ultimate strength. On an actual project, you might not be able to get at the backside. Were did the extra wide bevel idea come from? A wider bevel doesn't make for a stronger weld. There's just a lot wrong with that attempt at a test plate. One big wide relatively cold pass won't have the strength of several smaller, hotter passes. More passes gives a finer grain structure for one thing.

 

[BethelHntr]

I have a 211 you can use anytime, Shoot me a PM I'm in Maple Valley.

 

[Sodo]

What if you can't get at the backside? Test plates prove a welding procedure will provide the ultimate strength. On an actual project, you might not be able to get at the backside. Were did the extra wide bevel idea come from? A wider bevel doesn't make for a stronger weld. There's just a lot wrong with that attempt at a test plate. One big wide relatively cold pass won't have the strength of several smaller, hotter passes. More passes gives a finer grain structure for one thing.

If I could not get at the backside - I would ensure (by design choices) that the weld would not be "stressed from the backside". Hobby/maintenance guy doesn't have to weld to MIL-TD-4111 he can "go with the flow" add bracing as necessary, weld both sides (if accessible).

As soon as I cut the 45deg and held it together I looked too wide. But it only took a few moments to weld the 45 and take a pic - thats the whole story there. I intended to do several, but then looked at the clock & had to drop the hobby stuff. As mentioned above I'll do another at 60deg some day when I'm hobbying for TBN again.

That test plate's entire purpose on this earth is to be discussed, broken, learned from. Note that it conjured up a great tip (scarce as hen's teeth) for 120v MIG owners.

"One big wide relatively cold pass won't have the strength of several smaller, hotter passes. More passes gives a finer grain structure for one thing."

My first test plate I've ever done. I'd call it a success (for the 120v members who are hungry for tips from the pros).

Arc you're saying that if I made several passes which would entail stopping (and cooling ?) is actually 'hotter'? If you can explain, I'm interested. I would assume that the wide weld would be hotter thus increase the weld integrity at the root. Wrong?

 

[Todd NE WY]

I would call that test plate (with the overly-wide 45 deg bevel) a total success for 120v welders. [/QUOTE]

Sodo,

Only you would call something that is obviously nothing more than a stunt gone wrong a total success.

You just can't seem to understand the phrase "right tool for the job" applies especially for welding. You keep propagating the myth that it is ok to use a machine for things that even the manufacture doesn't recommend. Your continued prattling on that you can weld 1/4 and 3/8 with machines rated for 3/16 is going to get someone hurt or killed when a trailer flies apart because of cold 110 v mig welds.

 

[Sodo]

Todd, you are welcome to express what works for you. Agreed that it's possible for folks to weld something up, not having developed sufficient understanding to judge a weld's integrity. And it takes another kind of experience to learn how to judge "suitability".

Agreed cold welds could be lessened by 220v, but not everybody has 220v. I've seen 220v birdpoop more in real life than on forums, because on forums folks don't post their pics of their birdpoop. Good stick welding is kind of a long process to learn and if a guy starts building stuff with a stick the early projects can be sketchy. I would not assert that newbie stick welds are universally "safer" than a 110v MIG weld - maybe less, even.

With regards to trailers falling apart on the highway, is this a common problem that actually HAPPENS? I only hear about it on welding forums, never in real life. Are there genuine examples of trailer wrecks that I'm missing? I think most TBN welding is on tractor attachments, lawnmowers etc. Most interested people can learn to weld but some will not, I think that's just a fact of life. Even so I've welded lots of stuff that goes down the road, but my welds are strong, never had problem and never will.

Todd, if you've completed projects better than my test plate, can you post some project pics ----- that members can learn from? If you don't have any projects, or prefer not to show your projects, you could weld some test plates and post those????

 

[Arc weld]

To get certified for just about any type of welding requires that you do full penetration butt welds from one side. You have to be careful because too little or too much penetration will fail. You want the penetration to be about the same height as the cap on the outside, roughly the thickness of a dime. Pipe is the most common thing welded from only one side and there's no way to add braces. You don't have to be a certified welder in order to want the maximum strength weld when only one side is accessible. A test plate isn't a test plate until you test it. Welding 2 plates together and declaring they hold or are strong is no different than if you stuck them together with JB weld. Put some load on them to see if they are as strong as the base metal. Ultimately that is what you want to accomplish when you weld something together.

If you're welding say 3/8" plate with a machine only rated to weld 3/16", it's going to be a cold weld due to lower amps and not enough heat input into the thicker base metal. You might need lower amps for the root pass but then you want more amps for the "hot" pass and subsequent passes. A 220 machine would be able to put more heat into the weld. If you were welding the pieces with solid wire MIG, you wouldn't really need to stop for more than a couple seconds when ending one pass and starting the next. Even if you were stick welding or using flux-core, it would only cool for a few seconds while you cleaned the slag. When welding thick steel, they don't just fill it in with one big pass. They use several smaller passes and in a lot of cases it's faster to do more small passes instead of one big slow pass. Preheat is often used as well and on critical welds, the weld procedure will even specify the interpass temperature. Sometimes you don't want too much heat in the base metal and have to let it cool a bit before the next pass. Look at the spec. sheets for Lincoln NR 211 flux-core wire. It requires something like 22 passes on 3/4" plate to meet the AWS requirements.

I don't care if it's stick, MIG, TIG or A/O welding, If you're a beginner you need start on simple projects until you know what to look for and can produce quality welds. MIG is famous for having what looks like a perfect weld when in fact it is cold lapped or has other hidden flaws. That's where doing some practice test plates helps a lot.

 

[Sodo]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I can appreciate the regimentation of certification, it makes sense. There must be a one size fits all approach or it would be a moving target.

You've got me more interested in welding test plates, I'd go do some right now (if I had my eqpt @ home).

 

[Furu]

Mudd I can see that you understand how to use joint preparation to mitigate the lack of AMPs. Welders do it all the time. It doesn't take but a short time for a competent welder to learn this. I assure you that all the experienced welders on this forum know this intimately, and know very well how they'd any situation if ever stuck with a 110v MIG. Nobody says "you can't weld 1" thick steel with that little 225 Amp welder". All they say is "you can't do it in one pass". But with a 110v welder the general forum wisdom, even from the experienced guys is "you can't do it".

Well, you (often) can. A "110v welder and technique" is not for every welding situation but probably 95% can be done well (with regard to tractor forum projects that I've seen on this forum). More amps is definitely helpful. Sometimes if you don't have amps you can change the design to accommodate. For example add "bracing", or overbuild, which is perfectly acceptable.

Your statement is not not so far off. I think a more defensible statement, if you want to make a universal AMPS statement is "it takes AMPS to efficiently weld thick steel in a fillet weld".

Here's a 3/8" test plate vee'd at (45deg) and welded one pass with 110v. 60deg would have been better, but I was just screwing around. The 1/4" bolt is laying there just to show the size of the weld vee.

I should probably put that in the press and see what it does in bending. I will do that someday if I can remember to bring it to my shop that has the press.

I intended to re-do at 60deg before upsetting the forum but didn't have time, so this is all you get for now . I would weld another at 60-degree example if nobody else is willing. But after the weather cools down, and... if it seems like the forum needs more action . As said before there needs to be a thread "improving your 110v welding".

The weld looks to me to be very cold and looks like molten metal laid down in the "V" with no significant tie into the base metal.
I am not an expert on welding but would love to see that in a bend test.
For that matter I would love to see a cross sectional cut long before a bend was even started as I think that would be interesting to say the least.

That's a brand new gas regulator too and I bet anyone can guess why.

Regarding the safety comment: Sodo replies with a comment about how it is a new regulator and we can guess why. Well I guessed why!

If you are really interested in helping folks learn on the forum why not say something like the following when responding to the safety comment:

"Folks I had to put a new regulator on the bottle as the result of an accident. From the posted picture you can see I violated every safety tenant of compressed bottle gas and did not have the bottle tied/supported/secured in a responsible way. Please do not make the mistake I did. I was lucky and only had to replace the regulator. Next time it might kill me or someone I care about or result in a liability lawsuit. Learn from my mistakes and please do not repeat them"

 

[Sodo]

The weld looks to me to be very cold and looks like molten metal laid down in the "V" with no significant tie into the base metal.
I am not an expert on welding but would love to see that in a bend test.
For that matter I would love to see a cross sectional cut long before a bend was even started as I think that would be interesting to say the least.

It doesn't look cold. It's tied to the base metal very well but ( I think? ) there was no root weld. The next one was going to be a little different but had to quit goofing off. Would be pointless to bust just one testplate with no root weld - it would be like "no s*** sherlock" of course its gonna bust but need a comparison to make any sense of it. I'll do more someday, maybe get some time in September.

Regarding the safety comment: Sodo replies with a comment about how it is a new regulator and we can guess why. Well I guessed why!

If you are really interested in helping folks learn on the forum why not say something like the following when responding to the safety comment:

"Folks I had to put a new regulator on the bottle as the result of an accident. From the posted picture you can see I violated every safety tenant of compressed bottle gas and did not have the bottle tied/supported/secured in a responsible way. Please do not make the mistake I did. I was lucky and only had to replace the regulator. Next time it might kill me or someone I care about or result in a liability lawsuit. Learn from my mistakes and please do not repeat them"

How about this:

"I can see in my own pic that if the trailer moved it could knock the cylinder over. It's not just the cost of replacing the regulator; a gas bottle zooming off like a steel skyrocket could be dangerous."

OSHA or any gov't, city, state official could shut down just about every single thing that I do. I'd be sitting on the couch typing, like now. Like getting maimed without having any accidents. I don't have the patience to appease all those fellas, especially when I'm out in the woods; pretty much have a lot of freedom out there and I LIKE IT. I get by, well enough, don't feel too risky in spite of the fear expressed by some. One of those guys riding on the backseat of my dirtbike would be no fun there either :laughing:

 

[Shield Arc]

It doesn't look cold. It's tied to the base metal very well but ( I think? ) there was no root weld. The next one was going to be a little different but had to quit goofing off. Would be pointless to bust just one testplate with no root weld - it would be like "no s*** sherlock" of course its gonna bust but need a comparison to make any sense of it. I'll do more someday, maybe get some time in September.



How about this:

"I can see in my own pic that if the trailer moved it could knock the cylinder over. It's not just the cost of replacing the regulator; a gas bottle zooming off like a steel skyrocket could be dangerous."

OSHA or any gov't, city, state official could shut down just about every single thing that I do. I'd be sitting on the couch typing, like now. Like getting maimed without having any accidents. I don't have the patience to appease all those fellas, especially when I'm out in the woods; pretty much have a lot of freedom out there and I LIKE IT. I get by, well enough, don't feel too risky in spite of the fear expressed by some. One of those guys riding on the backseat of my dirtbike would be no fun there either :laughing:

Sodo you've made it perfectly clear, safety, and manufacture guide lines means nothing to you. So very glad you're on the other side of the Sound from me:applause:. Furu you be careful over there!

 

[Furu]

It doesn't look cold. It's tied to the base metal very well but ( I think? ) there was no root weld. The next one was going to be a little different but had to quit goofing off. Would be pointless to bust just one testplate with no root weld - it would be like "no s*** sherlock" of course its gonna bust but need a comparison to make any sense of it. I'll do more someday, maybe get some time in September.

Forget the bend take a bandsaw/hacksaw whatever you have and do a cut 90 degrees to the bevel/weld and post that picture of the cross section of the weld.

How about this:

"I can see in my own pic that if the trailer moved it could knock the cylinder over. It's not just the cost of replacing the regulator; a gas bottle zooming off like a steel skyrocket could be dangerous."

OSHA or any gov't, city, state official could shut down just about every single thing that I do. I'd be sitting on the couch typing, like now. Like getting maimed without having any accidents. I don't have the patience to appease all those fellas, especially when I'm out in the woods; pretty much have a lot of freedom out there and I LIKE IT. I get by, well enough, don't feel too risky in spite of the fear expressed by some. One of those guys riding on the backseat of my dirtbike would be no fun there either :laughing:

I am not talking OSHA I am talking Darwin.
Forget "if the trailer was moved"; on that ground an accidental pull on the hose could pull that cylinder over.

 

[Sodo]

I could take a slice off it then bend the rest.
Darwin may be watching every thing I do, especially dirtbikin' but it's too late I've already reproduced :laughing:

 

[paulharvey]

It's bad enough to have all this about the welds, but can we leave safety out of it. It's not the job or place for one independent person to tell another about safety, it's simply No one's business.

Do yall that care So much about safety Always go the speed limit, use your turn signal, and have non slip surfaces on your stairs?

 

[FTG-05]

It's bad enough to have all this about the welds, but can we leave safety out of it. It's not the job or place for one independent person to tell another about safety, it's simply No one's business.

Do yall that care So much about safety Always go the speed limit, use your turn signal, and have non slip surfaces on your stairs?

It's only pertinent when someone say's": "Do this! It's safe!". And it isn't.

I appreciate Soda's dedication to the 110/120 VAC welders, I do, I get it; for every expert/professional weldor there's probably 10 or more 110 VAC welder guys because that's all they have - and they do what they gotta do. I get it.

He oversteps it though, IM Lowely Opinion, when he disregards his welder's manufacturer's recommendations and the known welding experts here who are clearly telling him something else.

 

[Todd NE WY]

Todd, if you've completed projects better than my test plate, can you post some project pics ----- that members can learn from? If you don't have any projects, or prefer not to show your projects, you could weld some test plates and post those????[/QUOTE]

I don't have any pictures right now of stuff I have built or fixed. I will post pics of the bale spear set up I am getting ready to build. I will be about 3 weeks as I have to marry my son off in 2 weeks then I can get serious about fabrication. It is 3" by 1/4 square tube so I will not be welding with my 110 v mig. As far as the plates go I have a life so when I find time to go to the shop its for real stuff not just something to pound my chest about and prove my welding ability.