new to this forum kioti ck30 will not start

[Dave107]

So last June my tractor was running just fine. I shut it off and when I went to start it again it would just turn over. I found out the fuel gauge wasn't working and realized it was out of fuel. I added diesel and then turned it to air to bleed the lines. now almost a year later the tractor is still sitting in the woods and not running. I found out the solenoid was bad but now with a brand new battery fully charged none of the dash light will even come on when I turn the key! since I only have time to work on it on the weekend any info on what to look for or what to do would be great! Thank you

 

[jeff9366]

See if this T-B-N archive thread assists:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...threads-titled-kioti-will-not.html?highlight=

 

[ritcheyvs]

First of all, the more you provide about specific symptoms and circumstances, the better the chances someone can help you.

Tell us more about the solenoid replacement. Which solenoid? Why was it replaced and when (before or after no-start).

As I understand your description, the tractor is electrically dead even with a new battery. Do the emergency flashers work? Power for the flashers doesn't go through the key switch. If the flashers work, the switch is suspect.

Without more information, I'd guess your main fuse is blown or one of your battery cables has failed internally (under the insulation, where you can't see it). Visually check the fuse, it should be in the wiring harness in the vicinity of the starter motor. Check the battery ground cable by bypassing it with a jumper cable connected between the battery negative and a good bare-metal ground on the engine. You can do the same check with the positive cable by connecting a jumper cable between the battery positive and the big cable connection at the starter IF (and only if) you can SAFELY do this without any chance of the jumper cable shorting out to anything else. Beyond that, you'll need a volt meter, a schematic for your machine, and some electrical troubleshooting ability.

 

[Dave107]

sorry for not enough info, Im not the best with this. But I removed the solenoid that's on the front of the engine and when hooked it up to the battery and a set of jumper cables it only retracted once. ( I was told it shouldn't only do that once) the battery cables have been replaced. yes the flashers work. About a month ago when I tried to start it all the lights on the dash came on. now I get nothing. There is a single click when I turn the key but besides that nothing. My other issue was I cant understand why after shutting the tractor off last year it wouldn't fire back up.

 

[ritcheyvs]

You have the second version of the stop solenoid (SS). It is spring loaded to push the injection pump rack to the off position, that's what turns the tractor off. When the key switch is on, this solenoid is electrically powered to retract and that allows the fuel injection pump (IP) to regulate fuel to the injectors based on throttle position and RPM. Your original SS was working normally. There was an earlier SS version which mounted externally on the right side of the engine and it operated the manual stop linkage. In that version a timer applied power to the solenoid for a few seconds AFTER the key was switched off. But even if you connected that version of the SS to the battery it, too, would retract only once (it was the timer that let it re-extend). So you got some bad, or at least misleading, information on the SS

The stop solenoid should make a distinct audible click when the key is switched to on and again when switched to off (but you won't hear the off click if the engine was running). The glow plug relay will make a much less distinct click when the key is switched on. It sounds like you may be hearing one of these when you turn the key.

You have an electrical problem, so start by testing the battery voltage. Get a helper and a volt meter and measure the voltage across the battery terminals with the key off. It should be about 12.5 volts (higher is OK) and certainly nothing below 12 volts. Then switch the key on. The battery voltage should drop some (maybe to 11.5 volts) because the glow plugs (if they are working) will draw considerable current. If these voltages are good, wait about 15 seconds and try the starter. That may pull the battery down to about 10 volts if the starter cranks (which it doesn't, right?). If the measured voltages are much lower than these numbers, I suspect your battery is either undercharged or damaged because the dash lights worked a month ago but not now.

A battery, especially an older one, can self-discharge (go dead) if left uncharged for a few months. Also, a battery with a low state of charge can actually freeze (causing internal damage). You do get cold winters in Buffalo NY. Most car parts places (like Autozone) will test your battery for free if you want to try that.

 

[VictorW]

It sure does seem electrical as ritcheyvs mentioned. Start with the battery. It sitting all Winter can discharge it to the point your at. With a good battery, check that the fuel shut off solenoid is working properly. If working, you should have fuel. You did use air bleed after running out of fuel, so you should be ok. To check, crack one of the injection lines slightly, crank it over, and see if fuel sprays out. If so, the air is bled and you should be ok. Next, I'd check to see if the glow plugs are working which means the glow plug relay has to work. Pull one of the wires off of a glow plug and check for power, should be around 12 volts, when you first turn the key on and should last approximately 8 seconds. If power, that part is working. With fuel, glow plugs, and it cranks over, it should start unless a critter made a nest if the air filter housing, blocking the air intake. The ignition switches are known to fail especially if out in the weather and it does control various functions such as the solenoid, glow plugs, along with other electrical things such as the dash. One other place to look for electrical problems is the wire connectors under the right side foot rest. These connectors are known to corrode sometimes causing many electrical related problems. Check the negative cable where it attaches to the right side frame. This area can corrode and give a poor connection. Check the battery wires right at the terminals because the wire can corrode under the insulation. ritcheyvs advised above, how to bypass these for a test.

 

[Dave107]

Thank you for the good info. I forgot to mention when the tractor first wouldn't start last year after running fine it had about 200 hours on it. also the battery is good and has a full charge. when I checked the injection lines the fuel did not spray out, it dripped out. I was only able to crack 2 out of the 3 hard lines, I could not get to the middle line. about a month or 2 ago all the lights on the dash would come on and the tractor would crank but not start. this passed weekend when I turned the key nothing on the dash would come on, Im thinking your right about the ignition switch for that issue but as for why it wouldn't start last year after running great is beyond me. The starter relay was replaced 2 years ago, the fuel filter and fuel pump were replaced this year. from what I can tell there is no corrosion on any of the electrical lines

 

[Dave107]

RICHEYVS are you saying that the ss on the front of the engine is only suppose to retract once? making that solenoid still good?

 

[ritcheyvs]

RICHEYVS are you saying that the ss on the front of the engine is only suppose to retract once? making that solenoid still good?

YES. From what you described, that solenoid was functioning correctly. It is supposed to extend (under spring pressure) when unpowered and retract when 12v is applied to the coil. Period.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Thank you for the good info. I forgot to mention when the tractor first wouldn't start last year after running fine it had about 200 hours on it. also the battery is good and has a full charge. when I checked the injection lines the fuel did not spray out, it dripped out. I was only able to crack 2 out of the 3 hard lines, I could not get to the middle line. about a month or 2 ago all the lights on the dash would come on and the tractor would crank but not start. this passed weekend when I turned the key nothing on the dash would come on, Im thinking your right about the ignition switch for that issue but as for why it wouldn't start last year after running great is beyond me. The starter relay was replaced 2 years ago, the fuel filter and fuel pump were replaced this year. from what I can tell there is no corrosion on any of the electrical lines

Dave, this is new information. You are saying that despite the fact it won't even crank now, the original failure to start occurred last year and it was cranking fine then. So I now understand that: last summer, the tractor was running fine, shut down normally, and then never started again; is that right?

You currently have some electrical problem to sort out, likely a dead battery but maybe more complex. But that wasn't your problem last summer when it wouldn't start. Right?

Going back to the original failure to start (last summer), your symptoms sound like the injection pump (IP) failure. I think the most recent episode of this was reported by ERE, See: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kioti-owning-operating/311292-ck25-strange-death-symptoms.html. Reviewing this thread should explain things.

Maybe I'm just hung up on this failure mode but it is easy to diagnose. Just remove the "oil fill" plate on the right side of the engine and see if the IP rack is jammed or not. With the stop solenoid (SS) removed or energized, the rack should move smoothly and easily with just finger pressure. With the SS removed or powered the rack should move full forward (under light spring pressure) to rest against the governor arm (which should be well forward).

Please advise if I don't understand the situation.

 

[Dave107]

Scott, you are correct with your understanding of the situation. I feel there is an ignition problem right now and that is why I am not getting any lights on the dash. The battery is brand new as of this spring and has a full charge. I will look into the ignition hopefully this weekend.

As for the original issue (last summer) the tractor was running great, when we shut it down to do some work it would only turn over and not fire back up. I will also look into the oil fill plate and remove that and take your advice. I had a feeling it was the injection pump but wanted to check any other possible ( easy) fix before dealing with that. when the tractor was shut off last summer I did realize it was out of diesel. I didn't know that because the mice and chewed through that fuel gauge sensor wire. I did bleed the lines and cracked 2 out of 3 of the hard lines and still it would only crank over and not fire. the glow plugs were working as of a month ago so I don't believe it is that. I really appreciate the advice and will look into the oil fill plate. Thank you

 

[VictorW]

I think you're on the right track now. You have an electrical problem from it sitting out all Winter that could be the ignition switch which seems to be the weakest link in the tractor and many have failed do to the weather elements. As far as last year's not starting, I guess the IP could have just gone bad at the same time you ran out of fuel. Checking the IP as advised will either hurt the wallet or let you move on to other causes. By the way what year is the tractor or give us the first character in the serial number which is a letter?

 

[Dave107]

Vic, I agree. Its my fathers tractor so I don't know off hand what the first letter is, but I do know its a 2005 ck30

 

[ritcheyvs]

I think it is unlikely that the tractor ran out of fuel at the exact instant it was deliberately shut off with the switch. On the other hand, these IP gears always seem to break when the solenoid spring slams the rack to the off/zero fuel (full aft) position, as has been reported repeatedly on this list.

For Dave: WRT your electrical issues, do you have a schematic and do you know how to read/use a schematic? IMO, you need a schematic and a voltmeter (and some knowledge) to properly solve electrical problems. Otherwise it's just guesswork and part$ swapping (which often creates new problems).

Finally, just to be sure we are on the same page, please verify that your stop solenoid configuration is like this: MIE Parts Page-Stop Lever Group. The reason I ask is because the online parts page says this configuration began in CK30s with s/n H7030001, which would be a 2008 model (not 2005). But I know other 2005/2006 models (like my DK) use this configuration, so it could be another error in the online data. That's why it's best to call a knowledgeable dealer (like MIE) vs ordering online.

 

[Dave107]

I do not have a schematic, that I do need to find. the voltmeter I can barrow and I think my father has a better understanding of how to read the schematic once I get one. The tank was dry when the tractor was shut off. I'm pretty sure the tractor is a 2005. My dad is going to double check just to make sure. I'm hoping its not the IP and something much more simple that we are just over looking.

 

[Dave107]

another thing, If the stop solenoid and fuel solenoid are different where exactly would the fuel solenoid be located? Could that be an issue as to why it would not start?

 

[ritcheyvs]

another thing, If the stop solenoid and fuel solenoid are different where exactly would the fuel solenoid be located? Could that be an issue as to why it would not start?

Same thing. The Stop Solenoid stops the engine by moving the fuel injection pump rack full aft, a setting that injects zero fuel. The only other solenoid is part of the starter.

The injection pump is a precision device that measures out small, precise amounts of fuel and pumps it to the injectors under high pressure (like 2000-3000 psi) at a precise point in the compression stroke of each cylinder. The IP rack controls the amount of fuel pumped to each injector: zero fuel with the rack full aft and maximum fuel with the rack full forward. The rack is lightly spring-loaded to go forward to rest against the governor arm. If the RPM is too slow the governor allows the rack to move more forward and vice versa.

Voltmeters (aka multimeters) are easy to find these days. You can find them at Walmart, any auto parts place, Radio Shack, etc. Harbor Freight has them at very low prices. For your purposes, the cheapest meter you can find should work fine. For example: 7 Function Multimeter

 

[Dave107]

I made a mistake the tractor is not a 2005 it's actually a 2007 sorry for the wrong info

 

[Dave107]

Thank you guys for all the good info, I will take a look at what I can this weekend and post how I made out.

 

[bullshipper99]

My DK40 has a main fuse located between the battery and the ignition switch. Mine was covered in black electricians tape wrapped around the cable and it looked like a mickey mouse repair but is a fuse-able link put there from the factory. When nothing lit up including the glow plug, I unwrapped it and found it blown. I think it is 60a.
After replacement it worked fine.

I re-wrapped it with red elec tape so it stands out.

Good Luck.

BW