Electrical Issue

[Coyote machine]

It's not a fuse, it's a breaker. It's not a neutral, it's the ground cable. Batteries can have internal shorts, and a bad/corroded ground cable can cause all kinds of problems. Proper troubleshooting an electrical system starts at the battery and moves forward through the ground side and then the positive side, ruling out each item along the way. This electrical system is simplistic in relying on one breaker to protect the entire harness. Breakers do go bad like any other electro-mechanical device. Now the battery has been ruled out. The system has multiple problems aside from a single breaker. It has already shown one hot wire to be grounding out, which has now been dealt with. Others may also exist, but logical process beginning to end is what will render this unit free of intermittent shorts, bad grounds, etc. The harness may be worn out and in need of a new custom wiring job, but to determine the best outcome and the longest lasting will take the OP some time and troubleshooting to see where the actual issues lie.
Mil spec wiring could be a good answer, but marine wiring, which is readily available, and is tinned copper wire would be great for a system that is exposed to the elements.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Well, when it rains

I am going around the world next week on a movie. Ugh. These are no fun. Wake up somewhere new everyday, actually you only sleep on a plane. It is brutal. Anyway, it is a job and it isn't in an office so lucky me.

This all said, what do you guys have for sourcing wire. The stuff pt uses is unique, I am guessing 12 guage to 10 guage stranded, all of it in a loose fitting cover (not your usual automotive dipped on but it feels much more rubbery) and on top of it there is another rubber sheeth over the groupings of wires that includes paper and string. Feels like weird household wire in a way.

My gut is telling me that my trouble is in the tunnel. I have a lot of prep to do but I am going to get on the electrical as I can. Going to take off the covers and attach probes to the various circuits and see if I can track down the offender. It might indeed be a bad breaker, I know the engine is running hot and it seems to happen when things are very warmed up. but who knows....

 

[MossRoad]

Well, when it rains

I am going around the world next week on a movie. Ugh. These are no fun. Wake up somewhere new everyday, actually you only sleep on a plane. It is brutal. Anyway, it is a job and it isn't in an office so lucky me.

This all said, what do you guys have for sourcing wire. The stuff pt uses is unique, I am guessing 12 guage to 10 guage stranded, all of it in a loose fitting cover (not your usual automotive dipped on but it feels much more rubbery) and on top of it there is another rubber sheeth over the groupings of wires that includes paper and string. Feels like weird household wire in a way.

My gut is telling me that my trouble is in the tunnel. I have a lot of prep to do but I am going to get on the electrical as I can. Going to take off the covers and attach probes to the various circuits and see if I can track down the offender. It might indeed be a bad breaker, I know the engine is running hot and it seems to happen when things are very warmed up. but who knows....

You could always ship your machine to me for, ah, err, "testing" while you are globe trekking. It would be re-wired when you returned (with some hours on the meter for that "testing", of course).

Good luck with the troubleshooting. The tunnel is a major source of movement, wear and tear on hoses and wiring. Good place to start. Get some good labeling tape and label all the wires and connections before you pull them. Helps a great deal when you go to hook everything back up. A Brother P-Touch labeler with wire labeling tape works great.

 

[cqaigy2]

I had an old 47 willys jeep that started to have numerous electrical issues, like head lights going out on a hill climb, smoke when braking, bad charging etc. After farting around with everything, i just decided to rewire. Diagrammed, pulled wire loom everywhere i could then started pulling wire. Labeled wires as i went. As i replaced parts of the electrical, the jeep had fewer problems. The last part was the replacement of the 6 volt generator with 12 volt alternator and load resisters where needed. Oh and added a fuse block to wire different circuits with fuses. I didn't do it all at once but one circuit at a time, until all new.

 

[ponytug]

On my 1445, it isn't wires and loom from the factory, it is a single ~3/4" diameter cord, with ~14 wires in it of varying gauges, plus hemp, plus over molded rubber. It would be tough to get it pinched in the tunnel. The heavier gauges run power to the instrument cluster and the wire block under the instrument cluster, the lesser gauge wires transmit signals (oil pressure, fuel level, etc.) and run the control circuits (draft, PTO, brake, etc.) back. As I mentioned above, I tripped across a very similar looking cable once on a wire and cable supplier, where you could buy it by the foot, but I would have to pull my dash to get back under to check how many wires it actually has and the sizes. My recollection is it was an elevator cable, which was nice because the outer jacket was oil and abrasion resistant.

If you are looking at rewiring anything, I would start by replacing this main cable. Since the main cable screws into DIN wire blocks on mine, the failure mode is likely to be the cable. That said, I use a copper conductivity dielectric compound on every connection that I touch on the PT. You put it on once, it stops corrosion, improves conductivity, and basically eliminates intermittent connections. I got mine from DelCity, but there are a number of suppliers.

Good luck on your world tour. Eye shades, and ear plugs for flying and as much sunshine and fresh air as I can get is my recipe for staying lucid.

All the best,

Peter

Well, when it rains

I am going around the world next week on a movie. Ugh. These are no fun. Wake up somewhere new everyday, actually you only sleep on a plane. It is brutal. Anyway, it is a job and it isn't in an office so lucky me.

This all said, what do you guys have for sourcing wire. The stuff pt uses is unique, I am guessing 12 guage to 10 guage stranded, all of it in a loose fitting cover (not your usual automotive dipped on but it feels much more rubbery) and on top of it there is another rubber sheeth over the groupings of wires that includes paper and string. Feels like weird household wire in a way.

My gut is telling me that my trouble is in the tunnel. I have a lot of prep to do but I am going to get on the electrical as I can. Going to take off the covers and attach probes to the various circuits and see if I can track down the offender. It might indeed be a bad breaker, I know the engine is running hot and it seems to happen when things are very warmed up. but who knows....

 

[BobRip]

It's not a fuse, it's a breaker. It's not a neutral, it's the ground cable. Batteries can have internal shorts, and a bad/corroded ground cable can cause all kinds of problems. Proper troubleshooting an electrical system starts at the battery and moves forward through the ground side and then the positive side, ruling out each item along the way. This electrical system is simplistic in relying on one breaker to protect the entire harness. Breakers do go bad like any other electro-mechanical device. Now the battery has been ruled out. The system has multiple problems aside from a single breaker. It has already shown one hot wire to be grounding out, which has now been dealt with. Others may also exist, but logical process beginning to end is what will render this unit free of intermittent shorts, bad grounds, etc. The harness may be worn out and in need of a new custom wiring job, but to determine the best outcome and the longest lasting will take the OP some time and troubleshooting to see where the actual issues lie.
Mil spec wiring could be a good answer, but marine wiring, which is readily available, and is tinned copper wire would be great for a system that is exposed to the elements.

Some good points here. Yes a battery can have an internal short, but that is very unlikely to cause the breaker to blow. It will load the alternator more, but not load the breaker. The battery is the power source and with an internal short of a cell the voltage will be lower. This will reduce the current to the loads, not increase it. Your other points are right on. Sorry to nit pick. With multiple problems you have to go over everything, but the tunnel is a likely failure area with the flexing and rubbing of wire and insulation.

 

[Coyote machine]

Some good points here. Yes a battery can have an internal short, but that is very unlikely to cause the breaker to blow. It will load the alternator more, but not load the breaker. The battery is the power source and with an internal short of a cell the voltage will be lower. This will reduce the current to the loads, not increase it. Your other points are right on. Sorry to nit pick. With multiple problems you have to go over everything, but the tunnel is a likely failure area with the flexing and rubbing of wire and insulation.

Thanks. And, I'm not saying the battery, if it had an internal short, would cause the breaker to blow. What I'm attempting to do is simplify things for the OP by suggesting a method to effect the best results in the shortest amount of time and money, to sort out the entire electrical system.
Battery and grounds, breaker verification, harness assessment and resolution. By applying a logical approach one eliminates problems as they are found and then does an assessment of the entire system's ability to perform properly, or take steps to remedy it by starting from scratch and adding a newly wired harness and necessary upgrades such as new fuse box or additional breakers in key circuits.
Additionally, nothing gets overlooked in the process so when complete all systems are go.
This comes from first hand knowledge and building/design of complex HVAC systems, high end foreign auto repair and restoration; including insurance work for bank repoed cars, and complete replacement of wiring harnesses/dash clusters on fire damaged Volvos, etc. Additionally, I have been, as time allows completely rewiring my boat from stem to stern. It never ceases to amaze me how a boat's wiring can deteriorate and turn to dust, in this case since new in 2000. I've replaced plastic housing bilge pumps where the composite material has become so brittle that any amount of force and it just gives way and cracks. Wiring too, even though marine grade, after having been in Florida for maybe 10 years is completely toast, turns pink from all the salt in the air, etc. Wiring insulation and the wires inside become brittle, resist current flow, and then just stop working.

One key thing the OP mentioned in a recent post was the problem(s) seem to occur when the machine is hot. This often indicates possible circuits/wiring,etc. that have sustained heat/cold damage and wear and tear # of hours on the machine type breakdown of insulation, and other signs associated with end of life cycle of the actual wires. Where the damage is may not be as important in the long run as that the damage has/is occurring now. The OP seems to have been lucky to date, but from now until he does a rewire he could just chase his tail from one to another fault endlessly. If he can afford to take the machine out of service until a wiring overhaul was completed, I think he'd be happier in the short and long run. JMHO.

 

[BobRip]

Thanks. And, I'm not saying the battery, if it had an internal short, would cause the breaker to blow. What I'm attempting to do is simplify things for the OP by suggesting a method to effect the best results in the shortest amount of time and money, to sort out the entire electrical system.
Battery and grounds, breaker verification, harness assessment and resolution. By applying a logical approach one eliminates problems as they are found and then does an assessment of the entire system's ability to perform properly, or take steps to remedy it by starting from scratch and adding a newly wired harness and necessary upgrades such as new fuse box or additional breakers in key circuits.
Additionally, nothing gets overlooked in the process so when complete all systems are go.
This comes from first hand knowledge and building/design of complex HVAC systems, high end foreign auto repair and restoration; including insurance work for bank repoed cars, and complete replacement of wiring harnesses/dash clusters on fire damaged Volvos, etc. Additionally, I have been, as time allows completely rewiring my boat from stem to stern. It never ceases to amaze me how a boat's wiring can deteriorate and turn to dust, in this case since new in 2000. I've replaced plastic housing bilge pumps where the composite material has become so brittle that any amount of force and it just gives way and cracks. Wiring too, even though marine grade, after having been in Florida for maybe 10 years is completely toast, turns pink from all the salt in the air, etc. Wiring insulation and the wires inside become brittle, resist current flow, and then just stop working.

One key thing the OP mentioned in a recent post was the problem(s) seem to occur when the machine is hot. This often indicates possible circuits/wiring,etc. that have sustained heat/cold damage and wear and tear # of hours on the machine type breakdown of insulation, and other signs associated with end of life cycle of the actual wires. Where the damage is may not be as important in the long run as that the damage has/is occurring now. The OP seems to have been lucky to date, but from now until he does a rewire he could just chase his tail from one to another fault endlessly. If he can afford to take the machine out of service until a wiring overhaul was completed, I think he'd be happier in the short and long run. JMHO.

Like I said you have a lot of good points. Your info above was very informative. I just wanted to clear up one point. Your experience base far exceeds mine in this area and it is much appreciated and respected by me.

 

[Coyote machine]

Hey BobRip,
The feelings mutual.:thumbsup: You too know what you're talking about and have some very valid insights. There is always room to learn IMHO.
The outcome of this thread and the OP's decisions will be interesting to see where they lead and the final result.

 

[Poorman1234]

So, things are suddenly going south on the PT. And in an area that I think PT has failed miserably in, which is electrical.

My system is protected by one circuit breaker, making identification of a failing system impossible in my opinion to track down.

I just cleaned my ground terminals, and found a short in a seat wiring, but what is happening is randomly the engine is shutting down, and in doing so it is blowing the breaker. What is weird is that the engine starts to conk out, then comes back, conks again then dies with the breaker popping at that moment. I don't know if there is a thermal disconnect on the breaker (meaning it momentarily opens thus starting to stall the engine, cools and reconnects then the engine winds back up then dies again, popping the breaker).

Any thoughts on how to trouble shoot an intermittent electric with only one breaker?

I have one further thought....As time went on, my battery cables corroded inside. While they still made connection, their internal resistance went up and they could not carry the current efficiently. Replacing these made the machine start like new again. Make sure you check, not only the point to point connections, but wire resistance as well.

 

[Coyote machine]

I have one further thought....As time went on, my battery cables corroded inside. While they still made connection, their internal resistance went up and they could not carry the current efficiently. Replacing these made the machine start like new again. Make sure you check, not only the point to point connections, but wire resistance as well.

Yes, I agree with this 100%. I hadn't seen it a lot, but I remember a whipped Audi 5000 that came to my shop for faulty charging system issues. It eventually turned out to be a bad ground cable, after a nightmare troubleshooting the battery, etc. the cable crapped out internally and would not function as the path to ground. Then I saw the exact same thing on a friend of mine's boat. Same dead ground cable wires shot internally. It's not as uncommon as one might think, so I make a habit now of starting there to eliminate what can easily get missed and drive one crazy.:confused2:

 

[woodlandfarms]

Its been nothing but rain these past few days so the tractor has just sat. I have until Tuesday to see how far I can get into the system. New battery cables (new enough) so not my greatest concern. Will pull the cover off the rear connection box tomorrow if time permits. Maybe try and get in some afternoon mowing which will be points toward solving this issue. My poor wife will be left with this machine if I cannot resolve the issue. Means that nothing will get done until I return.

 

[Coyote machine]

Any pics of your wiring/breaker/ schematics of wiring/harness for studying?
How much for the breaker? Availability? #hours on machine?

 

[SpringHollow]

Carl,

If you are thinking of running a new cable bundle and the old one looks like it will be hard to pull out and replace, try a temporary extra long cable that doe snot go through the tunnel with slack for turning etc. If that solves the problem, then you can go through the extra work to replace it.

As mentioned earlier. I would take a serious look at the electrical connector on the engine, the one that has the fuel shutoff in it. It would be very easy for that to have issues from heat, vibration, water from cleaning the engine etc, and from repeated connects/disconnects.

My fuse was blowing a long ways back when I ran for a while. I am afraid I do not remember the cause but I think I had a frayed wire near the PTO solenoid. I will see if i can find anything I may have wrote.

Ken

 

[SpringHollow]

Hi Carl,

It was my alternator that was making the breaker blow - high voltage. Very similar symptoms to yours.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...50-alternator-replaced.html?highlight=breaker

Ken

 

[woodlandfarms]

Well the high voltage is interesting.

When i start my PT I am getting 14 volts (have not put a meter on it). This is higher than what I have seen in the past (usually the meter says 12 or 13 volts max)

So Ken, how much??? As i remember the alternators are brutally expensive as all Deutz parts are.

 

[SpringHollow]

Hi Carl,

Mine was reading 15 or more volts with a digital volt meter. I had the alternator checked at a shop and they said it was fine. I replaced the voltage regulator any ways and still got that high voltage. I tried it with 3 different batteries, replaced the battery cables, ran grounds directly to the alternator - none of it made any difference. When I replaced it with a new one, the voltage went down to 14.7 which is still a little high but my breaker stopped popping. I do not remember what it cost. I still have the old one - never got around to returning it for the "core" charge. That whole situation still does not make any sense to me. The shop I had the existing one tested at, all they do is alternators so I assume they tested it correctly.

Ken

 

[Coyote machine]

Well the high voltage is interesting.

When i start my PT I am getting 14 volts (have not put a meter on it). This is higher than what I have seen in the past (usually the meter says 12 or 13 volts max)

So Ken, how much??? As i remember the alternators are brutally expensive as all Deutz parts are.

You SHOULD be getting at least 14.25-14.5 Volts on average from an alternator in any 12 Volt electrical system. Something in the 12-13V range is NOT enough to put charge back into the battery. 14.7 V is OK, but 15 V and above is where damage is going to occur, possibly including but not limited to overcharging the battery and possible explosion of same as the battery off-gasses excessive heat as a result of boiling the electrolyte. A definite no no at best.

Hi Carl,

Mine was reading 15 or more volts with a digital volt meter. I had the alternator checked at a shop and they said it was fine. I replaced the voltage regulator any ways and still got that high voltage. I tried it with 3 different batteries, replaced the battery cables, ran grounds directly to the alternator - none of it made any difference. When I replaced it with a new one, the voltage went down to 14.7 which is still a little high but my breaker stopped popping. I do not remember what it cost. I still have the old one - never got around to returning it for the "core" charge. That whole situation still does not make any sense to me. The shop I had the existing one tested at, all they do is alternators so I assume they tested it correctly.

Ken

Seems that your original alternator was bench testing OK but was failing to keep from overcharging and thus tripping the breaker to protect your harness. This is a perfect example of the breaker functioning as it should, doing it's only job; keeping the harness from frying from overvoltage.
The new alternator brought actual field use on the machine to within acceptable range; though agreed on the high side, and the result was your breaker was satisfied with the output. It happens sometimes, I've seen it over the years on lots of different machines. Sometimes it results in slow boiling off of electrolyte and corrosion of the battery box/plate area without further damage. Over time this can result in holes being eaten in the metal work beneath the battery. This is an ongoing issue right now with my old '03 Tacoma. I keep an eye on it to keep the corrosion from doing any excessive damage.

This issue could be relevant to the OPs problem, but it sounds like he may be undercharging, not overcharging, either way something that needs to be addressed.

 

[SpringHollow]

Yes, the breaker was acting as it should. And the battery did boil and blow off its caps. The acid stains on the ceiling joists are a reminder of that event.

Ken

 

[Coyote machine]

Yes, the breaker was acting as it should. And the battery did boil and blow off its caps. The acid stains on the ceiling joists are a reminder of that event.

Ken

Wow! You are lucky you weren't there, (I'm assuming) when the explosion took place?!

For the OP I'm thinking your problem may actually be that your alternator ISN'T working to charge your battery. When the battery gets too low to run the machine, and it starts to stall, the breaker blows at the moment of failure of the battery to have enough charge left to sustain a running engine. This would be fairly easy to determine by attaching a VOM to the battery and monitoring it's state of charge during operation of the machine, until it dies as you first described. I'm not saying this is cause/effect, but until you verify that your charging system is operating properly, I wouldn't rule it out.