EPA issue ban on wood stoves

   / EPA issue ban on wood stoves #191  
I think most of you guys are off on the wrong foot here. As I understand it, this is not about 'green' or carbon dioxide reduction. It is about air pollution with particles that cause smog and get into peoples lungs and cause cancer. One of the biggest causes of death in parts of the world where cooking with fire wood is common is lung cancer from breathing wood smoke.

Yeah, I know how good wood smoke smells especially on a cool morning air, but it also causes lung cancer in excess, so let's cool it a bit until some manufacturers get their say in this matter. I burn wood I cut from my property for most of my heating needs so I want an efficient stove that don't kill me or my kids so I think this is in the right direction if we can get a good balance between the bureaucrats [who probably don't even know what a wood lot or wood stove looks like] and the manufacturers.
 
   / EPA issue ban on wood stoves #192  
I think most of you guys are off on the wrong foot here. As I understand it, this is not about 'green' or carbon dioxide reduction. It is about air pollution with particles that cause smog and get into peoples lungs and cause cancer. One of the biggest causes of death in parts of the world where cooking with fire wood is common is lung cancer from breathing wood smoke.

Yeah, I know how good wood smoke smells especially on a cool morning air, but it also causes lung cancer in excess, so let's cool it a bit until some manufacturers get their say in this matter. I burn wood I cut from my property for most of my heating needs so I want an efficient stove that don't kill me or my kids so I think this is in the right direction if we can get a good balance between the bureaucrats [who probably don't even know what a wood lot or wood stove looks like] and the manufacturers.

Well said.
 
   / EPA issue ban on wood stoves #193  
I think most of you guys are off on the wrong foot here. As I understand it, this is not about 'green' or carbon dioxide reduction. It is about air pollution with particles that cause smog and get into peoples lungs and cause cancer. One of the biggest causes of death in parts of the world where cooking with fire wood is common is lung cancer from breathing wood smoke.

Yeah, I know how good wood smoke smells especially on a cool morning air, but it also causes lung cancer in excess, so let's cool it a bit until some manufacturers get their say in this matter. I burn wood I cut from my property for most of my heating needs so I want an efficient stove that don't kill me or my kids so I think this is in the right direction if we can get a good balance between the bureaucrats [who probably don't even know what a wood lot or wood stove looks like] and the manufacturers.


Reducing particulates is just a starting point, once this has been accomplished most likely the EPA will reduce harmful gasses. Good or bad it will clean up our air at more cost to the consumer. Maybe after wood burning appliances are cleaned up we can ban outdoor barbecues from Memorial day to Labor day. If you don't think this could happen think again.

Regards, Fred
 
   / EPA issue ban on wood stoves #194  
Reducing particulates is just a starting point, once this has been accomplished most likely the EPA will reduce harmful gasses. Good or bad it will clean up our air at more cost to the consumer. Maybe after wood burning appliances are cleaned up we can ban outdoor barbecues from Memorial day to Labor day. If you don't think this could happen think again.

Regards, Fred

That's a funny way to get around to it but I think what you're saying is that clean air should be "free". Well you and I are 100% in agreement on that one.:thumbsup:
 
   / EPA issue ban on wood stoves #195  
That's a funny way to get around to it but I think what you're saying is that clean air should be "free". Well you and I are 100% in agreement on that one.:thumbsup:

I have a customer who drives a Chevy Volt, Nissan Leaf, rides his bike to work 8 miles even in the dead of Winter. Vegetarian, lawyer, pays out of pocket for those do not idle your car adds and is WAYYYYYYYYY out there. One day he comes in the shop and we go round and round (like we always do) and he shows me this website that shows the pollution that barbecues emit from outer space. He's already on this since he eats no meat I can tell you he does not own a barbecue. It's just a matter of time as the population grows more regs will come down like it or not.

Fred
 
   / EPA issue ban on wood stoves #196  
Might I also add that If you burn the wood hot you reduce the buildup of cresote and thus are already more efficient
I think most of you guys are off on the wrong foot here. As I understand it, this is not about 'green' or carbon dioxide reduction. It is about air pollution with particles that cause smog and get into peoples lungs and cause cancer. One of the biggest causes of death in parts of the world where cooking with fire wood is common is lung cancer from breathing wood smoke.

Yeah, I know how good wood smoke smells especially on a cool morning air, but it also causes lung cancer in excess, so let's cool it a bit until some manufacturers get their say in this matter. I burn wood I cut from my property for most of my heating needs so I want an efficient stove that don't kill me or my kids so I think this is in the right direction if we can get a good balance between the bureaucrats [who probably don't even know what a wood lot or wood stove looks like] and the manufacturers.
 
   / EPA issue ban on wood stoves #197  
It's just a matter of time as the population grows more regs will come down like it or not.…………..Fred

You're right about that, population increase causes a lot of legislation. If people would simply stop reproducing, the EPA would be unnecessary. People who can change that are those who are in their childbearing years NOW. All you old farts already did your damage, you added the kids to the world and caused the legislation.

Ya know? If you pollute the world now, then the state of overpopulation pushes out a few generations down the road after those inhabitants (and time) cleans up the pollution. But if we just go and make the world a dandy place NOW, then that "overpopulation date" comes sooner. So it really makes no difference to the EARTH. But it makes a big difference to YOUR grandkids.

I just accept population increase, and try to preserve outdoor life, clean air, water, food and quality of life for the grandkids. But thats just me.

There will always be people on the fringes of society, who think the sky is falling, (WAYYYYY out there one way or the other!). The fact that these people exist, and are able to speak their minds is proof that our society still values freedom.
 
   / EPA issue ban on wood stoves #198  
Of course I can take it...

Anyway, I am always suspicious of government statistics...a healthy skepticism is important. Transparency in government isn't so transparent...and bureaucrats do manipulate their statistics for their own agendas.
Sort of like "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan..." blah, blah, blah.

I'll read your links when I get home tonight...but I did scan the one about Cuomo. In his case, he's got so many upstate New Yorkers PO'd about that idiotic gun ban as well as his comments afterward, he's doing anything he can to mollify those folks. There's more issues in upstate NY as well, but that's probably the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back".

The EPA hadn't bothered with wood stoves since about 1990 (give or take a couple years)...why now?

I would replace suspicion with trust but verify. The verify part is getting more difficult I grant you, and that leads to suspicion. The studies the EPA relies upon for lower net costs; i.e., stove prices increase some, health costs decrease more, are darn hard or impossible for the average person to verify. It is human nature to not trust that which we cannot verify. However at some point, in the absence of reliable information to the contrary, I accept that we buy kids books and send them to school for a reason.

Sometimes that education and new knowledge leads them to things we'd rather not hear about because it adds complexity to our lives. More often that new knowledge benefits us greatly, and that we like. Well, it all comes from the same places and processes. Arbitrarily trusting that which we like while rejecting that which we don't, is very human but illogical.

The current EPA stove particulate standards this new proposal would replace have been in effect since 1988, 26 years ago. In those 26 years stove designers have managed to create more efficient stoves that produce more heat with less fuel while emitting fewer particulates. There were some clunkers along the way but that would be normal for any technology. The cost increase for stoves have been repaid by reducing fuel consumption. Over a stove's lifetime that cost $500 more to buy new, that is only 2.5 cords of cut, split and delivered wood around here that needed to be saved to break even. In reality the stove likely produced net savings in excess of that $500.

Also in the past 26 years, the population and its corresponding pollution load has increased and will continue to. And we've learned that we need to manage the global carbon cycle primarily through greater use of carbon-neutral energy sources such as solar, wood/biomass, hydro, and wind.

Wood, fiber and biomass have great potential as energy sources. Wood has a high level of consumer acceptance, its use is relatively low-tech, it produces energy on-demand, it can often be locally sourced, and it is renewable. What's not to like--if it can be used at greater levels without increasing damaging side effects such as particulate pollution?

In the face of increasing population and hopefully growing use of wood, the only way to hold particulate emissions at safe levels (which are constant restraints for health no matter how many people and stoves there are) is to reduce the particulates produced by each wood burning appliance. The same concept applies to Tier IV diesel engines; how are particulates held at safe levels while adding millions of engines to the globe? It can only be done by reducing the particulates each engine produces. We can debate about the technology choices to best accomplish that, but we cannot argue about the need to do it somehow.

I think now is an excellent time to work on the known challenges. There is nothing to gain and much to lose by delaying.
 
   / EPA issue ban on wood stoves #199  
I think most of you guys are off on the wrong foot here. As I understand it, this is not about 'green' or carbon dioxide reduction. It is about air pollution with particles that cause smog and get into peoples lungs and cause cancer. One of the biggest causes of death in parts of the world where cooking with firewood is common is lung cancer from breathing wood smoke.

Yeah, I know how good wood smoke smells especially on a cool morning air, but it also causes lung cancer in excess, so let's cool it a bit until some manufacturers get their say in this matter. I burn wood I cut from my property for most of my heating needs so I want an efficient stove that don't kill me or my kids so I think this is in the right direction if we can get a good balance between the bureaucrats [who probably don't even know what a wood lot or wood stove looks like] and the manufacturers.

How is it with more than 60 years of air pollution controls... going all the way back the PVC valves on cars and CATs on California Cars over 40 years ago and we still seem to be almost at square one when it comes to air pollution?

It's like nothing has been accomplished with the billions or trillions spent because it is never enough.

My Grandparents and all of their farm neighbors heat and cook exclusively with wood and the region has for generations... NO ONE in the community dies of Lung Cancer and most of these farmers live to reach their 90's as both my grandparents... when was the last time anyone heard of Amish having lung cancer?

A little common sense would say they must be doing something right for everyone to be so healthy?

By the way... Grandfather refused a pacemaker at 92... said he had never been to a Hospital and wasn't starting now... he was 94 when his heart gave out and most of his 94 years he felled and split all the wood for the farm... even at age 90.

All I am saying is WE have the right to be concerned about government studies and mandates.

Anyone remember the cancer causing fire retardant agents mandated for children's sleepwear forced by government?

How about all the water aquifers contaminated by mandated MTBE

What about the wildlands where all timber harvesting was halted only to have unbelievable forest fires later?

Mercury Thermostats are one of my pet peeves... why on Gods green earth is the city where I live paying a bounty on them??? A simple millivolt mercury thermostat for a wall of floor furnace will last a lifetime and perform flawlessly... a snap action millivolt thermostat is a disaster waiting to happen... frozen pipes etc... and yet... the compact fluorescents that were mandated each contain mercury???
 
   / EPA issue ban on wood stoves #200  
You're right about that, population increase causes a lot of legislation. If people would simply stop reproducing, the EPA would be unnecessary. People who can change that are those who are in their childbearing years NOW. All you old farts already did your damage, you added the kids to the world and caused the legislation.

Ya know? If you pollute the world now, then the state of overpopulation pushes out a few generations down the road after those inhabitants (and time) cleans up the pollution. But if we just go and make the world a dandy place NOW, then that "overpopulation date" comes sooner. So it really makes no difference to the EARTH. But it makes a big difference to YOUR grandkids.

I just accept population increase, and try to preserve outdoor life, clean air, water, food and quality of life for the grandkids. But thats just me.

There will always be people on the fringes of society, who think the sky is falling, (WAYYYYY out there one way or the other!). The fact that these people exist, and are able to speak their minds is proof that our society still values freedom.

Thank you for giving me a pass... I have no children and probably never will.
 

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