DK45 FEL capacity issues?

[sdef]

Good day,

I have a fairly new DK45SE HST and have been doing a lot of maintenance items around the house, learning how to operate it, modifying it, etc. before I take it to my property 35 miles away, where it will stay while I am clearing the lot for our retirement home.

The FEL is rated at 2761# lift capacity at the pin, 3727# breakout at the pin and 4633# rollback at the ground. I have no prior tractor experience I can relate my current issues to.

Today is the first day I have worked the FEL hard and that was while I was moving old, dead fallen trees and moving some dirt. I had a 48" rock grapple bucket (550# net) that I snagged some live tree roots with a few times, along with those heavy duty teeth probably stuck in the clayish mixture beneath the root and which stopped the FEL from lifting or curling up. At no time did I hear anything like a hydraulic relief valve opening or any other change in sound. The FEL was just not going to lift the load and I moved the tractor backwards to get out from under the ~ 3" diameter oak root.

And when getting the 72" wide standard bucket with Pirannah tooth bar full of dirt, a few times the tractor died, when I assume I had the bucket stuck into the small hillside I was digging into and curling up while moving forward. The engine RPMs were around 2000 and I increased them which seemed to help.

The FEL will easily lift the front of the tractor, which I have done on occasion while digging earth with the tractor moving or stationary, either curling the bucket down or pushing down with the FEL.

In reading many different posts on TBN this year, I have read numerous accounts of people indicating that when the FEL exceeds the maximum PSI the relief is set to, it will go into bypass and I was expecting to hear some type of change in noise when this happened, and I did not in either case.

So, are what I am seeing and hearing normal or should I have heard something if the relief valve pressure setting was exceeded?

I really was expecting more performance than what I experienced today and wonder if there is not enough pressure being developed to cause the relief valve to open?

Or maybe the relief valve could be defective or maladjusted?

I was running the engine ~2000 RPM, which two dealers told me it should be at (HST). Should it be closer to the red line to build up hydraulic relief pressure?

Hydraulic fluid is between the add and full lines.

To know if it is developing enough hydraulic pressure and at what RPM, my next step will be to build a hydraulic pressure gauge to insert in the lines and get some readings for proper troubleshooting and learning. Does anyone have any idea the coupling sizes used on the KL401 FEL? 3/8" Ag maybe?

Thanks.

 

[whis]

sounds normal to me you wont hear the relief valve

 

[sdef]

sounds normal to me you wont hear the relief valve

Great and thanks. I was under the impression I would hear it so was a bit concerned. I need to have a pressure test device anyway so just ordered parts for an inline device from Discount Hydraulic Hose.

 

[IXLR8]

I have a DK40, I have not heard the pressure relief valve itself when I hit the limit. But I can hear a difference in tone to the engine like it is working harder when I hit the limit. I typically run the engine at 1500-1800 rpm, I have stalled it a few times running the loader and I am starting to run at higher rpms. I put 250hrs on my CK30, always ran it in the 1500-1800 range and I never stalled it!!?? Except for loader capacity... the more I run my DK40... the more I miss my CK30.

 

[Coyote machine]

When pushed to the 'limit' you should hear a noise change from the engine/hydraulics, and the RPMs should also drop somewhat. When you release/let up on the forward hydro pedal the RPMs should come back up to where they were, or you stall. Do you have a rear remote engaged for a hoe or something else that takes power from the hydraulics? If you have a rear remote engaged, the one with the detent positions, you will loose power to the FEL and if nothing is attached to the remote you will burn out your hydro pump.

 

[sdef]

I have a DK40, I have not heard the pressure relief valve itself when I hit the limit. But I can hear a difference in tone to the engine like it is working harder when I hit the limit. I typically run the engine at 1500-1800 rpm, I have stalled it a few times running the loader and I am starting to run at higher rpms. I put 250hrs on my CK30, always ran it in the 1500-1800 range and I never stalled it!!?? Except for loader capacity... the more I run my DK40... the more I miss my CK30.

I got my DK45 and HST, along with its weight specifically for loader operations and ROBB usage. I do not recall the engine loading down any when I am at max. capacity.

 

[Coyote machine]

I have a DK40, <snip>Except for loader capacity... the more I run my DK40... the more I miss my CK30.

Curious what you mean by this? What about the CK30 do you miss specifically?

 

[IXLR8]

Curious what you mean by this? What about the CK30 do you miss specifically?

I miss the maneuverability and the single HST pedal, I can't tell you the number of times I have pushed the go pedal and gone in the wrong direction. I am presently designing a single pedal system to operate the HST. The wider tires on the CK didn't mess up my yard and it was easier to fit into my tractor storage area. I never stalled the CK, stalling the DK happens too often is a bit embarrassing and frustrating, especially when doing a paying job with the customer watching. I just felt more intimate with the CK, like I knew where everything was, from the first minute of operation. With the DK I am constantly checking where is the loader, tires, BH with respect to what I am doing, I just don't feel comfortable with it. I liked the feel/control/response of the FEL better on the CK. FEL movement is slower on the DK and I get impatient waiting for it after the speed of the FEL on the CK. I only have 10 hrs on the DK, so I know some of these issues will go away with time.
The DK starts faster, warms up faster, electric 4wd is nice.. that is one thing I don't miss on the CK, fighting with the lever to engage/disengage 4wd. Now that I finally have some ballast on the back of the DK, I can finally use the FEL for the purposes that I bought the tractor for. If the weather cooperates I will find out for sure this weekend.
One of the reasons for getting rid of the CK was it had trouble lifting a bucket fill of dirt. I knew it had an over-sized bucket on it the previous owner put on it for moving snow but I didn't know it's size. After I finalized the deal to trade it in, I found out the bucket was a construction duty 9 cuft bucket, the standard bucket for a CK30 is a 7 cuft bucket. Add to that an aftermarket SSQA rated for 3000lbs and no wonder it wouldn't lift a full bucket. There are times I just wish I had gotten the proper bucket for the CK and kept it. Considering the weight of the larger bucket, with the weight of the heavy duty QA, I am surprised at what the FEL on that little tractor could lift.

 

[k0ua]

Please don't take this the wrong way, others have said the same thing, but "how do you stall the engine of a HST equipped tractor?" I have never done it. And would not know how to make it stall. The only thing I can think of is the Hydrostats relief valve was set very high? How can you possibly stall the engine? I have run up against immovable objects many times, One of two things happen, if in low range, the tires will spin, sometimes all 4.. or if in Med or High, they will either spin a bit and/or the relief valve will open on the hydro, and it will just "whine" and not move.. But in neither case has the engine died. It will drop RPM of course as it loads, but unless you were at such a low RPM that it dropped below where it could sustain rotary motion?.. Combination of low RPM, and very high hydrostat relief valve setting? Someone please 'splain this to me, I have been meaning to ask about it for a long time.

James K0UA

 

[IXLR8]

Please don't take this the wrong way, others have said the same thing, but "how do you stall the engine of a HST equipped tractor?"

James K0UA

I don't know either, I never did it with the CK, it acted just like you described, spin the wheels or HST whine. Running at the same rpm's, 1500-1800 on the DK as I did on the CK.. several times I have run into a pile of dirt to pick up a load and the engine stalled. I find if I run the rpms higher, 2000-2200 I stall it less often and if I run it at 2400 rpm and higher I don't stall it. I have no idea why the difference. I just hate listening to the engine running at 2400 rpm when I don't think I should have to.

 

[sdef]

I find if I run the rpms higher, 2000-2200 I stall it less often and if I run it at 2400 rpm and higher I don't stall it. I have no idea why the difference. I just hate listening to the engine running at 2400 rpm when I don't think I should have to.

Same thing with mine.

 

[k0ua]

Well of course I have a different engine in My DK 35se. It is a 3 cylinder, but it has never come close to stalling and I run it at 1800 to 2000 most of the time. I dunno.

 

[murphy1244]

There is something wrong with your machine. I have picked up wet dirt that lifted my rear tires off the ground.

 

[nc redneck]

I have a 45 SE when you push it to the max, first sign is RPM drop then black smoke out of exhaust. If you keep pushing it, it will die and need to be restarted. Just remember it is a 45 HP tractor not a Cat D-9 bulldozer

 

[rjwerth]

Check to be sure your parking brake is off and your rear remote is not engaged.

 

[Coyote machine]

James,
For most loose material I can move a full bucket no problem at 1800RPMs. If trying to angle the bucket at a 45 say to dig a ditch out I may up it to 2K-2200. If I try to breakout a packed earth pile at 1800 or so in 2wd or medium range I'll get immediate hydro whine, RPM drop, usual RPM recovery, or complete stall. At this point as an OP it stalls infrequently, and almost always as OP error. Too low RPM, too much material or not loose enough, not in L, not in 4x4. Most often I can dig in in 2wd and lift up as I reach bucket and loader's capacity, while curling or disengaging from the pile by releasing pressure on the F pedal and allowing the RPMs to stabilize, or just bring the bucket up instead of further into the pile, and the lifting of the load will resume. Recently I've lifted so many piles of earth I'm getting to the point if I pay attention to the tractor's sounds I seldom stall. For me at least I can do most bucket work with the 18-2000 range. 2400 or higher is just too much to tolerate for any length of time.
As an example, I recently moved a pile of mixed topsoil, dirt, rocks of various sizes, some buried construction debris, etc. from point A to a point B about 30 feet away to turn over the weed and grass covered pile for next spring. I approached it by leveling the bucket, driving forward at 1800 and in 2wd. As I came at the +/- 6' high piles I would engage the pile at grade and then lift the bucket. I was being careful to avoid any possible nails from prior burn piles of construction debris that had been in the same landing area previously so I did not chop the pile from the top down to grade. This of course was more difficult to do and I was just thinking to myself, "well I haven't stalled her today", when a few minutes later I did just that.:confused3: It would have been easier to cut down from the top of the pile to grade but I couldn't risk having a flat because tomorrow the local fire dept is coming to excavate a dry hydrant at my pond and I need the tractor to be at the ready.
Hope this helps 'xplaining to do...:2cents:

 

[murphy1244]

I always go into a pile in either low or med and in 4 wheel drive.

 

[IXLR8]

I always go into a pile in either low or med and in 4 wheel drive.

So do I, if I use the same technique with the DK40 as I used with CK30... I stall the DK. I would have expected with more HP I would stall the DK less often than I did the CK, but the opposite is true. This is making me more and more curious as to why. I wonder if there is something different about the tolerances or pressures in the DK vs the CK in the HST unit.
Hmmm, we seem to have hijacked the OP's thread.

 

[sdef]

I have never had a problem pulling a load nor carrying a load at any time, up hill or down hill and have never had an issue with HST relief. My intermittent engine stalling problems have always been when digging with the FEL. I use 4WD and HST M or L as the situation seems to require. With my efficient buckets I can get by with HST M most of the time and get a full bucket out of a hillside. I have the locomotive power and the bucket to cut into the earth.

The buckets I am using have very efficient teeth and it is very easy to dig into a virgin, small hillside with the bucket down 5 degrees or so in this situation, drive forward in M or L and easily get a full bucket of earth, sometimes lifting the front wheels a little bit and can end up with the bucket teeth embedded into hard clay at the same time. This is when the tractor can stall, primarily due to my inattentiveness and RPMs around 1800. My question is not how to stop this as I know I just need a bit more experience to become more efficient and increase the RPMs or stop digging, assuming I have no hydraulic issues with the tractor- which is the basis of my post.

My question is concerning the hydraulic relief and whether I may have some type of problem as I am not hearing, feeling or any type of sensing of any change in any condition, relating to pressure relief in action. I was expecting the hydraulic relief to come into play before stalling of the engine. And I was expecting maybe a sound similar to when a remote is deadheaded or something, and did not hear any difference. My only indication a limit was reached was when the FEL just would not lift and no sound was indicated when this happened. Just no more lift capacity. And on occasion the engine would stall most likely due to me not having enough RPMs, I imagine.

It could be that my tractor and/or others of similar model do not make enough hydraulic pressure to cause hydraulic relief until RPMS of around the 540 PTO mark. If this is the case, it would explain what I am seeing, in my novice mind.

So, no one has been able to answer my original question, expect possibly the first respondent who thought my indications seemed normal. And they very well may be.

I have ordered parts to create an inline pressure tester and this should answer my questions of pressure relief vs. engine RPMs on my tractor. Others have already answered that I will not hear pressure relief.

 

[IXLR8]

I will be curious to see what your pressure check shows. I am expecting a fairly constant pressure, biggest change will be flow rates but I don't know how you would measure that. I will have to pay closer attention to exactly what I am doing, what the engine is doing, the next time I am moving dirt.