Solar energy proposal, what do ya think?

[Woody65]

I want to run this proposal by you guys. I was approached by a salesman from Vivant, a solar company sub contracting for PSE&G. PSE&G is taking over the distribution of power on Long Island and are mandated to have 30% renewable energy. A survey was done by them of my area. A salesman came to my home and informed me that I was one of the homes they were looking to offer solar to. I have a large south facing roof with no obstructions. Also, my annual usage is above their minimum requirements. My roof is only 5 yrs old and I installed Timberline lifetime shingles which they also liked. This is beneficial because the panels would not have to be removed for a roof replacement for some time.

So, I listened to his offer which was the following. They will install the system including, solar panels, wiring, electrical, permits etc for no charge. They will own and maintain the panels and roof. There will be no property tax increase since they own the system. My home will generate power which will go into the Grid. I will purchase 80% of my power from Vivant for .15 cents a kilowatt. I currently pay LIPA . 21 cents a kilowatt. The 20% left I must purchase from LIPA. I have to sign a 20 yr contract to purchase the aforementioned power from them. There is a 2.9% cap on yearly rate increases. If I wish to cancel the contract I would have to pay a $500 fee to have the system removed. They estimated that I would save about 20% a month on my electric bill. That sounds good because LIPA has the highest rates in the country. I own a residential home improvements business so I am not concerned about damage to the roof or siding. I would just repair it myself and bill them. I would not put the system on the front of my home but since it will be on the rear of a 2 story residence with a 12/6 pitch, you cannot see the panels.

I was an LEO for 25 yrs in NYC and have a cynical streak in me. I like the idea of solar and want to know if you guys see any inherent problems with the above.

 

[dave1949]

If you are amenable to solar on your roof, and you have the roof area to install enough panels to meet a reasonable percentage of your power consumption needs, then it is probably a better deal for you to purchase and own the system outright over the long-term.

That's assuming LIPA or PSE&G have reasonable net metering contracts for residential grid-tied systems. Those contract terms are usually set by your state PUC.

To get a good comparison, you could get a quote from a solar installer who will look at your current consumption and your solar potential. You have the cost of money to think about, but you will know the price of some percentage of your power for the next 20 years. With your high rates, I would certainly look into it.

I don't know about the property tax treatment in your area. Here, it would be considered personal, not real, property and our town doesn't tax that.

 

[Woody65]

I was never considering solar until Vivant made the above offer. There are very few homes in my area with solar. And I mean next to none. The costs in this area of the country are prohibitive along with the amount of sunny days. I don't want to incur the initial costs of installing it along with maintaining it over its lifetime. That's why I was interested in their offer. No cost, no maintenance. I know they are making money off of me but it costs me nothing and I save $ on my monthly bill.

 

[dmccarty]

I would be cynical too.

How much access to the house do they need AFTER the system is installed? I would expect they would need very little access but if said access affected my privacy and time constraints it would be a problem. Do you pay the lower rate even when the panels are not producing?

Will the $500 removal fee increase in future years? The Spanish government was heavily pushing solar PV systems. Then reality hit with the economic downturn and they stopped providing subsidies for PV installations. Now, they *** TAX *** PV installations. Given that the system is not yours, I wonder what happens if the mandate ends. Are you going to be left with their installation on the roof when you want to do something else with your roof.

There is a website, DSIRE: Database of Energy Efficiency, Renewable Energy Solar Incentives, Rebates, Programs, Policy, that has quite a bit of information on solar. I would check to see what information they have on these type of installations. I have heard of these type of installations but that is all. NC has an NC Solar Center that has a great deal of information maybe NY does as well.

Later,
Dan

 

[Woody65]

I would be cynical too.

How much access to the house do they need AFTER the system is installed? I would expect they would need very little access but if said access affected my privacy and time constraints it would be a problem. Do you pay the lower rate even when the panels are not producing?

Will the $500 removal fee increase in future years? The Spanish government was heavily pushing solar PV systems. Then reality hit with the economic downturn and they stopped providing subsidies for PV installations. Now, they *** TAX *** PV installations. Given that the system is not yours, I wonder what happens if the mandate ends. Are you going to be left with their installation on the roof when you want to do something else with your roof.

There is a website, DSIRE: Database of Energy Efficiency, Renewable Energy Solar Incentives, Rebates, Programs, Policy, that has quite a bit of information on solar. I would check to see what information they have on these type of installations. I have heard of these type of installations but that is all. NC has an NC Solar Center that has a great deal of information maybe NY does as well.

Later,
Dan

Dmccarty,

They should need no access after the install. The only reason would be to replace damaged panels.

They estimated that I would produce enough energy to purchase the max 80% from them. This is of course beneficial to them, the more kilowatts they sell back to me the more profit for them. That is why they did a survey and identified homes that could produce the energy and have enough usage to buy it back. There might be times during winter months where I would not produce enough to reach the max. Then I would purchase the rest from LIPA.

There is no subsidy for me. I pay nothing for the system. They are mandated to have a 30% renewable energy plan in place by Jan 1, 2014. They are planning thousands of installs on Long Island in the next 2 months. I have requested a list of homes near mine to go look at and possibly talk to the owners. They have a number of homes farther along in the approval process that have had the install already or are about to have it done.

Vivant just did a multi year project in NJ under the same provisions and it seems that the customers are satisfied.

 

[dave1949]

Okay. The cynic in me says the 2.9% cap on increases is like giving you nothing. Whatever percentage of your consumption comes from the system has a 20 year fixed rate to the utility. That portion should never have a rate increase applied to it, the rest is whatever the market rate change will be and the possible 2.9% per year sounds steep.

The current .15/kWh is more than the long-term production cost to the utility. I think they are making a profit on power produced on your roof and sold to you--plus whatever renewable energy credits they may sell (or not have to buy).

The maintenance is very minimal on a grid-tied system. I wouldn't put much value on that.

The 20 year contract may be an issue if you sell and the potential buyers are not interested in having that. You would have to pay the $500 uninstall fee and patch or replace the roof to make it look like it was never there. I assume there will be differences in shingle appearance over time comparing under, and not under panel areas. Other than the panels, the only other equipment should be an inverter unit and conduit for the cables.

Without knowing how much you stand to save over the next 20 years or how much that means to you personally, and you are somewhat ambivalent about it to begin with, I would ask for a better deal if you decide to do it.

 

[Woody65]

Okay. The cynic in me says the 2.9% cap on increases is like giving you nothing. Whatever percentage of your consumption comes from the system has a 20 year fixed rate to the utility. That portion should never have a rate increase applied to it, the rest is whatever the market rate change will be and the possible 2.9% per year sounds steep.

The current .15/kWh is more than the long-term production cost to the utility. I think they are making a profit on power produced on your roof and sold to you--plus whatever renewable energy credits they may sell.

The maintenance is very minimal on a grid-tied system. I wouldn't put much value on that.

The 20 year contract may be an issue if you sell and the potential buyers are not interested in having that. You would have to pay the $500 uninstall fee and patch or replace the roof to make it look like it was never there. I assume there will be differences in shingle appearance over time comparing under, and not under panel areas. Other than the panels, the only other equipment should be an inverter unit and conduit for the cables.

Without knowing how much you stand to save over the next 20 years or how much that means to you personally, and you are somewhat ambivalent about it to begin with, I would ask for a better deal if you decide to do it.

I get what your saying dave1949.

But this program is not being offered by my utility. LIPA is being fazed out of the distribution of electricity and gas on Long Island due to its pitiful performance during the past few hurricanes. They are still the seller of the power but the maintenance and distribution has been awarded to PSE&G, who have contracted with VIvant to produce solar energy on Long Island. They are not providing any grid power, only the power made by the homes that they are selling back to you at a 28% discount from the current LIPA rates. They will have to pay LIPA for the usage of their transmission lines. And they are in the business of making a profit, which I don't mind. I am just looking for the hole in the donut on this offer....

The contract is transferable to new owners if I sell. But do understand the consequences if the buyers don't want it. Since I have a business doing that kind of work, the cost would be minimal to me.

 

[aczlan]

I would make sure you are reading the CONTRACT, not the sales brochures for prices and other such information as it doesn't matter what the brochure says, you will have to live by what the contract says.

Aaron Z

 

[aczlan]

I get what your saying dave1949.
But this program is not being offered by my utility. LIPA is being fazed out of the distribution of electricity and gas on Long Island due to its pitiful performance during the past few hurricanes. They are still the seller of the power but the maintenance and distribution has been awarded to PSE&G, who have contracted with VIvant to produce solar energy on Long Island. They are not providing any grid power, only the power made by the homes that they are selling back to you at a 28% discount from the current LIPA rates. They will have to pay LIPA for the usage of their transmission lines. And they are in the business of making a profit, which I don't mind. I am just looking for the hole in the donut on this offer....
The contract is transferable to new owners if I sell. But do understand the consequences if the buyers don't want it. Since I have a business doing that kind of work, the cost would be minimal to me.

As long as it is in the contract that you will buy solar energy from them at 28% less than the "normal market rate" for your area (not the 2013 market rate) and you are using enough electricity to make it worth the hassle it sounds like a decent deal.

Aaron Z

 

[Woody65]

I would make sure you are reading the CONTRACT, not the sales brochures for prices and other such information as it doesn't matter what the brochure says, you will have to live by what the contract says.

Aaron Z

I have the contract right in front of me. I was not born yesterday...

 

[Woody65]

As long as it is in the contract that you will buy solar energy from them at 28% less than the "normal market rate" for your area (not the 2013 market rate) and you are using enough electricity to make it worth the hassle it sounds like a decent deal.

Aaron Z

Aczlan,

The contract doesn't have percentages because they can't control what the utility charges. They have a rate of .15 cents a kilowatt which is approximately 28% below my utilities rates.

The deal sounds good to me but I am apprehensive at this point.

I have done my due diligence researching on the web and cannot find any smoking gun to prevent me from having it done.

 

[aczlan]

I have the contract right in front of me. I was not born yesterday...

Glad to hear it. I know several people who have signed based on the pamphlet rather than the contract and regretted it later.

Aczlan,
The contract doesn't have percentages because they can't control what the utility charges. They have a rate of .15 cents a kilowatt which is approximately 28% below my utilities rates.
The deal sounds good to me but I am apprehensive at this point.
I have done my due diligence researching on the web and cannot find any smoking gun to prevent me from having it done.

Is there any other early termination fee other than the $500 charge? The fixed rate would worry me, but if it was $500 to get out at any time, I suppose that if rates dropped enough, it could be worth that.
What time period are they measuring on? Is it power produced vs power consumed per month? If you use 10kw in a month but the system makes 20kw in a month, do you get anything extra?

Aaron Z

 

[Woody65]

Glad to hear it. I know several people who have signed based on the pamphlet rather than the contract and regretted it later.

Is there any other early termination fee other than the $500 charge? The fixed rate would worry me, but if it was $500 to get out at any time, I suppose that if rates dropped enough, it could be worth that.
What time period are they measuring on? Is it power produced vs power consumed per month? If you use 10kw in a month but the system makes 20kw in a month, do you get anything extra?

Aaron Z

I am still nailing that down. The fine print in the contract only mentions a $500 fee to remove panels. I will have the rep come back before I commit and nail him down on the termination language and what I would be on the hook for.

If you make more power than you use it is banked. Then during the winter months when you can expect to have less power produced, you draw on that banked credit.

My only hang up right now is the early termination language. Which I hope to have clarified.

 

[RickB]

I want to run this proposal by you guys. I was approached by a salesman from Vivant, a solar company sub contracting for PSE&G. PSE&G is taking over the distribution of power on Long Island and are mandated to have 30% renewable energy. A survey was done by them of my area. A salesman came to my home and informed me that I was one of the homes they were looking to offer solar to. I have a large south facing roof with no obstructions. Also, my annual usage is above their minimum requirements. My roof is only 5 yrs old and I installed Timberline lifetime shingles which they also liked. This is beneficial because the panels would not have to be removed for a roof replacement for some time.

So, I listened to his offer which was the following. They will install the system including, solar panels, wiring, electrical, permits etc for no charge. They will own and maintain the panels and roof. There will be no property tax increase since they own the system. My home will generate power which will go into the Grid. I will purchase 80% of my power from Vivant for .15 cents a kilowatt. I currently pay LIPA . 21 cents a kilowatt. The 20% left I must purchase from LIPA. I have to sign a 20 yr contract to purchase the aforementioned power from them. There is a 2.9% cap on yearly rate increases. If I wish to cancel the contract I would have to pay a $500 fee to have the system removed. They estimated that I would save about 20% a month on my electric bill. That sounds good because LIPA has the highest rates in the country. I own a residential home improvements business so I am not concerned about damage to the roof or siding. I would just repair it myself and bill them. I would not put the system on the front of my home but since it will be on the rear of a 2 story residence with a 12/6 pitch, you cannot see the panels.

I was an LEO for 25 yrs in NYC and have a cynical streak in me. I like the idea of solar and want to know if you guys see any inherent problems with the above.

Dmccarty,

They should need no access after the install. The only reason would be to replace damaged panels.

They estimated that I would produce enough energy to purchase the max 80% from them. This is of course beneficial to them, the more kilowatts they sell back to me the more profit for them. That is why they did a survey and identified homes that could produce the energy and have enough usage to buy it back. There might be times during winter months where I would not produce enough to reach the max. Then I would purchase the rest from LIPA.

There is no subsidy for me. I pay nothing for the system. They are mandated to have a 30% renewable energy plan in place by Jan 1, 2014. They are planning thousands of installs on Long Island in the next 2 months. I have requested a list of homes near mine to go look at and possibly talk to the owners. They have a number of homes farther along in the approval process that have had the install already or are about to have it done.

Vivant just did a multi year project in NJ under the same provisions and it seems that the customers are satisfied.

There may be a substantial difference between purchasing 80% of the power you use from them and purchasing 80% of your power demand IF IT IS PRODUCED by the solar array. If you purchase no more than 80% during months with high solar gain, it will not make up the shortfall of the months with less than optimal sunshine. You will never meet the 80% mark given those parameters.
The potential real property tax liability issue needs to be answered by your local assessor's office, not the installer. It might matter much more whose house the equipment is bolted to than who owns it.

 

[aczlan]

I am still nailing that down. The fine print in the contract only mentions a $500 fee to remove panels. I will have the rep come back before I commit and nail him down on the termination language and what I would be on the hook for.
If you make more power than you use it is banked. Then during the winter months when you can expect to have less power produced, you draw on that banked credit.
My only hang up right now is the early termination language. Which I hope to have clarified.

Sounds good as long as the tax and ETF can be worked out to your satisfaction...

Aaron Z

 

[NY_Yankees_Fan]

Check with your insurance carrier and see what they think. PV panels increase the chance of fire you may see an increase in premium or need to change carriers, get it in writing on what they say. Also check with your fire department, the panels present potential problems with cutting holes in the roof to vent heat and smoke. The panels are always on and present an electric hazard to the firefighters. NJ is #2 in PV panels in the US,
and have found the hard way some of the down side of the panels. Also make sure they will pick up all maintance on the panels, loose connections, damaged panels from hail all are potential problems.

Do not get me wrong PV panels have a lot of good stuff going for them, like everything else buyer beware. Google solar panel fires you will have a few hours of reading. Here is a good read, California has been a leader in this area since they are #1 in installations. Also make sure the installation meets the 2011 of the NEC national electrical code for PV. They incorporated new requirements for new systems. Your local code may not be the 2011 edition so you need to ask, and insist it meets this edition.

http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/education/southeast_training_network/Background%20on%20CA%20PV%20Installation%20Guide.pdf

 

[Woody65]

There may be a substantial difference between purchasing 80% of the power you use from them and purchasing 80% of your power demand IF IT IS PRODUCED by the solar array. If you purchase no more than 80% during months with high solar gain, it will not make up the shortfall of the months with less than optimal sunshine. You will never meet the 80% mark given those parameters.
The potential real property tax liability issue needs to be answered by your local assessor's office, not the installer. It might matter much more whose house the equipment is bolted to than who owns it.

They had a solar engineer come to the house. He went up on the roof and took readings and dimensions. They then have a historical graph of the average sunlight, angle, strength etc. They are not offering this to all customers. Only those that meet the requirements because it doesn't make any sense for them to set up a system that doesn't produce enough solar power. They are in the business of selling the power back to you. They want to sell me 100% of my power but the agreement they have with LIPA is that they still get to sell me 20% of my power. The solar power produced during the peak months gets banked and used during the off peak months of production.

The tax liability has been answered by the town and county. Since it is not a capitol improvement done by me, the homeowner, there is no tax increase because the company owns the equipment and it can be removed by them.

 

[Woody65]

Sounds good as long as the tax and ETF can be worked out to your satisfaction...

Aaron Z

Aaron,

Excuse my ignorance, but what is ETF? And the tax issue has been resolved. See my previous post.

 

[Woody65]

Check with your insurance carrier and see what they think. PV panels increase the chance of fire you may see an increase in premium or need to change carriers, get it in writing on what they say. Also check with your fire department, the panels present potential problems with cutting holes in the roof to vent heat and smoke. The panels are always on and present an electric hazard to the firefighters. NJ is #2 in PV panels in the US,
and have found the hard way some of the down side of the panels. Also make sure they will pick up all maintance on the panels, loose connections, damaged panels from hail all are potential problems.

Do not get me wrong PV panels have a lot of good stuff going for them, like everything else buyer beware. Google solar panel fires you will have a few hours of reading. Here is a good read, California has been a leader in this area since they are #1 in installations. Also make sure the installation meets the 2011 of the NEC national electrical code for PV. They incorporated new requirements for new systems. Your local code may not be the 2011 edition so you need to ask, and insist it meets this edition.

http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/education/southeast_training_network/Background%20on%20CA%20PV%20Installation%20Guide.pdf

Thanks for the heads up. I did not know about the fire hazard and insurance issues.

They assured me that the installation will be to national electrical codes and will be inspected by electrical underwriters.

 

[Raw Dodge]

I would be hesitant only because the invertors they use are very dirty. ..they create harmful electrical interference in your home..in time you will see that these grid tied systems are terrible,due to this problem..if they could figure out how to build the invertor so it doesn't turn your household wiring into a transmitter that constantly blasts you and your family with rfi ,they would be great...look into this before you sign...