garbageman
Silver Member
A co-worker of mine, uses home heating fuel in his 7100. This can't be good. He states it is the same fuel as at the pump just a different color and 33% cheaper. What do you thinK?
Oil & Fuel Home heating fuel in a tractor??
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Jim_Becker
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It's the same stuff...#2 heating oil is essentially the same as diesel fuel minus some addititves that you can add yourself. It's also legal in most cases to do this since your tractor is not used on the highway. (Tax issue)
If you only buy fuel sporatically and in 5 gallon containers, it's not worth the effort, but if you can budget for a tank large enough that the heating oil company will deliver to you, you can save a bunch of money over time. You'll need a tank and a way of conveying the fuel into your machine...gravity or a manual or electic pump. But be sure you are using the fuel in a reasonable amount of time...
If you only buy fuel sporatically and in 5 gallon containers, it's not worth the effort, but if you can budget for a tank large enough that the heating oil company will deliver to you, you can save a bunch of money over time. You'll need a tank and a way of conveying the fuel into your machine...gravity or a manual or electic pump. But be sure you are using the fuel in a reasonable amount of time...
JWE
Gold Member
I buy off road diesel from a local fuel distributor. They told me that the off road diesel is exactly the same as home heating fuel with red dye added. They put the same fuel treatment in the off road diesel and home heating fuel as they put in the diesel that they deliver to service stations. I used it all last winter and never had a problem. I buy 10 gallons at a time. It saves me about 30 cents a gallon so I really don't save very much money. My BX2200 doesn't use a lot of fuel.
John
John
RichNJKubota
Gold Member
I just buy the regualr diesel fuel and pay the higher taxes. Since my tractor is used on the farm (a business) the accountant fills out a tax form and I get the road fuel tax back.
I looked into this as well and talked to several oil suppliers...it is the SAME stuff. Last time I ordered my home heating oil I had them put another 250 in my diesel tank...I even ask them if I called up the company and ask them to deliver off-road diesel fuel and some heating oil on the same day, how many trucks would they send to my house..the answer was "one".
Of course you don't want to get caught using the red stuff in an on-the-road vehicle, but if its for off-roa use, i.e. a tractor..go ahead and save the money.
Of course you don't want to get caught using the red stuff in an on-the-road vehicle, but if its for off-roa use, i.e. a tractor..go ahead and save the money.
Everything said so far is true concerning home heating oil v/s diesel. The biggest problrm is cleanliness.Home heating is very,very dirty. We used offroad diesel(home heating) where I used to work,we were constantly changing fuel filters. At home I use reg. diesel,the result is even after 100 hrs. the filter still looks clean. What you save in ppg,you spend in filters. Check the filter on your home heating oil tank the next time that it is changed,I think you will be shocked.
Junkman
Super Member
I am using home heating oil in my BX and it runs fine. The fuel is clean and clear.... with a red die in it.... been using it since the dealer filled tank full ran out.......
SkyPup
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Home heating oil is NOT diesel fuel, it contains a minimum of 3,000ppm sulfur and upwards to 7,0000ppms, whilst road diesel contains <500 ppms, usually around 350ppms or so. Not to mention its cetane value is not even measured but usually below 40...
Try getting some <300ppm 50 cetane BP Supreme Diesel and your Kubota will sound like it suddenly became a smooth jet turbine engine, instead of sounding like a Mack truck.
Home heating oil is great if you wish to contaminate your crankcase oil with sulfuric acid and dissolve your crank bearings. Have fun, save a few cents in the short run and pay big time in the long run.... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Try getting some <300ppm 50 cetane BP Supreme Diesel and your Kubota will sound like it suddenly became a smooth jet turbine engine, instead of sounding like a Mack truck.
Home heating oil is great if you wish to contaminate your crankcase oil with sulfuric acid and dissolve your crank bearings. Have fun, save a few cents in the short run and pay big time in the long run.... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Junkman
Super Member
Your opinion differs dramatically from that of the diesel & home heating supply company that delivers both products. My Kubota doesn't sound like a Mack truck, but if it did, I would have a lot more power....... Mack builds a great product. Just for the heck of it, I will run this tank down and change to "pure" diesel for the next tank full and let you know.... I am curious where you got your statistical analysis information from? thanks
JDgreen227
Super Member
Drove heavy duty diesel trucks for 25 years but never owned a diesel engine until this year. Converted from oil heat to gas heat in our house back in 1993, and never thought about the connection between home heating oil and diesel fuel until I joined the TBN discussions. Amazing, how much useful stuff I have learned from these posts.
Thanks for sharing your opinions !!
Thanks for sharing your opinions !!
Junkman
Super Member
A positive vote for my original position...... Please read this....
DieselD
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Sulfur is know in diesel as a lubricant, Thats a good thing.
Nowadays with low sulfur fuels, you need to add products like
Howes,Lucas,Stanadyne etc. I run offroad diesel. which is the exact same as home fuel color and all, from the same truck in all my equipment for years and not one bearing lost.
My highest machine has just over 8000hrs running on home fuel.
Danny
Nowadays with low sulfur fuels, you need to add products like
Howes,Lucas,Stanadyne etc. I run offroad diesel. which is the exact same as home fuel color and all, from the same truck in all my equipment for years and not one bearing lost.
My highest machine has just over 8000hrs running on home fuel.
Danny
SkyPup
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NONE of the major national fuel pipelines, like Colonial, etc. are allowed to even send home heating oil through the lines without firist sending down a cleaning pig through the line to get rid of the home heating oil as it will contaminate diesel fuel and it will be illegal to sell it.
SkyPup
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Sulfur is not now, never has been, and never will be a Lubricant, it is only a highly polluting contaminate that turns to sulfuric acid in your crankcase and SO2 in the air your breathe, especially bad if you have asthma or emphemsyma. The only hassle about removing suflur from diesel fuel to get rid of this poision is that it is water solubable so the diesel fuel middle distillate must be further hydrocracked, thereby accidentally removing some of the other natural lubricating abilities of the fuel, thereby requiring the addition of more lubricant to keep the pumps from binding.
Sulfur is on its way out in everything, road fuel, off road fuel, and home heating oil since it is such a terrible compound. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Sulfur is on its way out in everything, road fuel, off road fuel, and home heating oil since it is such a terrible compound. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
JerryG
Super Member
<font color="blue">How Sulfur Is Used In Lubrication
"What is the difference between total sulfur and active sulfur contents in extreme pressure additives? How does sulfur (both forms) increase extreme pressure (EP) characteristics?"
Sulfur is used in many EP oils and metal working fluids as an EP additive. The basic way this works is for the sulfur to react at elevated temperatures, such as those experienced by meshing gears to form a sulfide layer. For example for steel gears, an iron sulfide layer is forms on the gear tooth surface. This ductile layer improves sliding contact, preventing scuffing or galling.
There are two types of sulfur compounds used, active and inactive sulfur. The main difference is that for active additives, the sulfur containing additive reacts with the surface at much lower temperatures, whereas, inactive compounds react only at much higher temperatures. While active additives have advantages of greater reactivity and hence may offer better anti-scuff protection, particularly at lower temperatures, they are also mildly corrosive particularly to yellow metals (brass, bronze etc.) and should be avoided where these alloys are present. In fact, active sulfur additive may cause the oil to fail the copper strip corrosion test (ASTM D130), while inactive sulfur will not be corrosive under these conditions.
The amount of active sulfur additive can be measured by first determining the total sulfur content using an appropriate ASTM test method (ASTM D129 or D4294), then reacting the active sulfur with copper powder and removing the copper sulfate by filtration, and again measuring the remaining total sulfur. This procedure is outlined in ASTM D1662.
Mark Barnes, Ph.D., Senior Technical Consultant, Noria Corporation</font>
"What is the difference between total sulfur and active sulfur contents in extreme pressure additives? How does sulfur (both forms) increase extreme pressure (EP) characteristics?"
Sulfur is used in many EP oils and metal working fluids as an EP additive. The basic way this works is for the sulfur to react at elevated temperatures, such as those experienced by meshing gears to form a sulfide layer. For example for steel gears, an iron sulfide layer is forms on the gear tooth surface. This ductile layer improves sliding contact, preventing scuffing or galling.
There are two types of sulfur compounds used, active and inactive sulfur. The main difference is that for active additives, the sulfur containing additive reacts with the surface at much lower temperatures, whereas, inactive compounds react only at much higher temperatures. While active additives have advantages of greater reactivity and hence may offer better anti-scuff protection, particularly at lower temperatures, they are also mildly corrosive particularly to yellow metals (brass, bronze etc.) and should be avoided where these alloys are present. In fact, active sulfur additive may cause the oil to fail the copper strip corrosion test (ASTM D130), while inactive sulfur will not be corrosive under these conditions.
The amount of active sulfur additive can be measured by first determining the total sulfur content using an appropriate ASTM test method (ASTM D129 or D4294), then reacting the active sulfur with copper powder and removing the copper sulfate by filtration, and again measuring the remaining total sulfur. This procedure is outlined in ASTM D1662.
Mark Barnes, Ph.D., Senior Technical Consultant, Noria Corporation</font>
JerryG
Super Member
<font color="blue">Sulfur-containing products are used in metalworking (cutting, grinding, sawing, etc.), steel rolling and wire drawing areas. They work through contained sulfur reacting with the metal under extreme conditions of heat and pressure to form a metal sulfide layer. This metal sulfide layer allows for slip or movement to reduce friction and metal damage.
All CPChem's polysulfides are actually mixtures containing various numbers of sulfur atoms. The main polysulfide component in each is listed below along with some of its many applications.</font> From this site
All CPChem's polysulfides are actually mixtures containing various numbers of sulfur atoms. The main polysulfide component in each is listed below along with some of its many applications.</font> From this site
F350Lawman
Gold Member
Removing sulfur DOES decrease lubricity. You can argue that the sulfur is not a lubricant but it is the process itself of removing the sulfur that causes the real harm. The diesel gets stripped of some of it's lubricity. Now some manufacturers will added lubricants but who knows?
These are just a few quotes you can find on the net. No, they are not from fuel additive companies either. Do a search on Google regarding diesel lubricity and low-sulfur fuels.
As far as home heating oil and it's sulfur causing your engine to be eaten by sulfuric acid you're kidding right??. People were running higher sulfur fuels for decades without problems. How did all those trucks go 500,000 or a milion miles? What do you think most of these farmers are running in their tractors?? Yeah that's right good old non-road sulfur diesel or home-heating oil with sulfur. The guy fills the house tank and then the tractor fueling tank. Half of these famers have more hours on their tractor than any dozen of us will likely have in the next decade.
I think your more than a little of base here with the claims that low sulfur fuels have less lubricity (unless addtives are used at the distillery) than the prior fuels and that HH oil will "eat" your engine.
Perhaps we can file your posts in the "Rural Legend" category. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
In October 1993, EPA limited sulfur in diesel fuel for “on-road” vehicles to a maximum of 0.05% or 500 parts per million (PPM). This created many fuel related problems that resulted from the poor lubricating quality of the low sulfur diesel fuel. Since the maximum limit for sulfur in diesel fuel prior to October 1993 had been 0.50% or 5000 PPM, the refinery processing not only lowered the sulfur content but also removed trace amounts of certain polar impurities. Both organo-sulfur compounds and these polar impurities were the ingredients that gave diesel fuel its needed natural lubricating qualities
Is lubricity a problem with ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel?
No. Today’s ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel contains additives to ensure adequate lubricity. For example, ultra-low sulfur diesel currently produced by Conoco/Phillips Petroleum in Ferndale, Washington, has a minimum of 3,100 grams lubricity (SBOCLE Test) in compliance with the ASTM standard for highway dieselWithout conducting any economic analysis, the Report does raise the possibility of removing all sulfur from fuel. Reducing fuel sulfur would reduce the formation of sulfate particles from aircraft emissions. The Report acknowledges that while the technology exists to do that, removing sulfur would reduce lubricity, and create a serious safety issue.
The properties and performance of lower-sulfur diesel are also an issue since removing sulfur will decrease fuel lubricity
Pressure to reduce particulate emissions created by all fuels lead to the development of low sulfur diesel (0.05% w or less). The process of removing sulfur from diesel can also remove certain trace compounds which help to provide the fuel's natural lubricity. As a result, there has been a corresponding rash of complaints in the U.S. of failed diesel pumps and injectors, as well as some seal failures, associated with the use of low sulfur diesel.
These are just a few quotes you can find on the net. No, they are not from fuel additive companies either. Do a search on Google regarding diesel lubricity and low-sulfur fuels.
As far as home heating oil and it's sulfur causing your engine to be eaten by sulfuric acid you're kidding right??. People were running higher sulfur fuels for decades without problems. How did all those trucks go 500,000 or a milion miles? What do you think most of these farmers are running in their tractors?? Yeah that's right good old non-road sulfur diesel or home-heating oil with sulfur. The guy fills the house tank and then the tractor fueling tank. Half of these famers have more hours on their tractor than any dozen of us will likely have in the next decade.
I think your more than a little of base here with the claims that low sulfur fuels have less lubricity (unless addtives are used at the distillery) than the prior fuels and that HH oil will "eat" your engine.
Perhaps we can file your posts in the "Rural Legend" category. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
In October 1993, EPA limited sulfur in diesel fuel for “on-road” vehicles to a maximum of 0.05% or 500 parts per million (PPM). This created many fuel related problems that resulted from the poor lubricating quality of the low sulfur diesel fuel. Since the maximum limit for sulfur in diesel fuel prior to October 1993 had been 0.50% or 5000 PPM, the refinery processing not only lowered the sulfur content but also removed trace amounts of certain polar impurities. Both organo-sulfur compounds and these polar impurities were the ingredients that gave diesel fuel its needed natural lubricating qualities
Is lubricity a problem with ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel?
No. Today’s ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel contains additives to ensure adequate lubricity. For example, ultra-low sulfur diesel currently produced by Conoco/Phillips Petroleum in Ferndale, Washington, has a minimum of 3,100 grams lubricity (SBOCLE Test) in compliance with the ASTM standard for highway dieselWithout conducting any economic analysis, the Report does raise the possibility of removing all sulfur from fuel. Reducing fuel sulfur would reduce the formation of sulfate particles from aircraft emissions. The Report acknowledges that while the technology exists to do that, removing sulfur would reduce lubricity, and create a serious safety issue.
The properties and performance of lower-sulfur diesel are also an issue since removing sulfur will decrease fuel lubricity
Pressure to reduce particulate emissions created by all fuels lead to the development of low sulfur diesel (0.05% w or less). The process of removing sulfur from diesel can also remove certain trace compounds which help to provide the fuel's natural lubricity. As a result, there has been a corresponding rash of complaints in the U.S. of failed diesel pumps and injectors, as well as some seal failures, associated with the use of low sulfur diesel.
terpdog
Member
I also thought that there was a nice fine if you used
Home Heating fuel for anything other than Home Heating.
Of course you have to be caught.
Chris
Home Heating fuel for anything other than Home Heating.
Of course you have to be caught.
Chris
Junkman
Super Member
You can use home heating oil for any purpose that you want provided that the purpose doesn't have a similar product that is taxed.... i.e.: diesel fuel... Fuels that are used on private property and are not used on public highways are not taxed and as such you can use any thing you like, including, but not limited to home heating oil (fuel). If you take the tractor over a public highway, say to your neighbors home, then you should have the taxed product in the fuel tank..... i.e.: diesel fuel... Being that I only use my tractor on my property, I can use "off road diesel" or home heating oil....
5030
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SkyPup:
I have to disagree with you in as much as pipeline companies sending a pig in the line between products.
I don't work at a refinery, but a very good friend and sledding buddy works at Marathon in Ecorse, Michigan. He just happens to be in charge of product analysis.
When a product is transmitted in the pipeline, and then another product is introduced, there is a section of product that gets intermingled. That intermingled product is put to the flare. The only time a pig is inserted in the line is for inspection purposes. It just so happens that we had the discussion about 3 days ago so it's fresh in my mind.
As far as sulfur in diesel fuel, the sulfur is a lubricant for the lapped surfaces in the injection pump, and injectors. Newer diesels with electronic fuel management systems don't rely on mechanical injection but rather an electrical impulse to actuate the injection mechanism.
There are allot more by-products of combustion that are polluting your crankcase oil besides sulfur or lack of it.
I agree with Junkman (for once). Besides, he has some nice pups!!!
I have to disagree with you in as much as pipeline companies sending a pig in the line between products.
I don't work at a refinery, but a very good friend and sledding buddy works at Marathon in Ecorse, Michigan. He just happens to be in charge of product analysis.
When a product is transmitted in the pipeline, and then another product is introduced, there is a section of product that gets intermingled. That intermingled product is put to the flare. The only time a pig is inserted in the line is for inspection purposes. It just so happens that we had the discussion about 3 days ago so it's fresh in my mind.
As far as sulfur in diesel fuel, the sulfur is a lubricant for the lapped surfaces in the injection pump, and injectors. Newer diesels with electronic fuel management systems don't rely on mechanical injection but rather an electrical impulse to actuate the injection mechanism.
There are allot more by-products of combustion that are polluting your crankcase oil besides sulfur or lack of it.
I agree with Junkman (for once). Besides, he has some nice pups!!!
