new tractor idea possibly....

[boggen]

i think i have something for a hyd motor. that is better setup for "in wheel" motor. vs a typical hyd motor.

been trying for a variable displacement hyd motor for the transport wheels, but i just do not see it happening.

bent axial hyd motor. i think i can do, but with a twist. it took a quick spread sheet for miles per hour to inches per minute, wheel circumference, and revolutions per minute. to make the push.

below = a swash plate?!? or rather bent axial pump, and instead of cylinders inside of the bent axial pump running at 45 degrees. thought about letting the cylinders run across humps on a ring.



more humps = slower RPM's.
less humps = higher RPMs,

more humps = a "higher" min RPM
less humps = a "smaller" min RPM
min RPM = amount of RPM that would be needed to keep the wheel spinning. without causing locking up problems. this is a bigger one for me, and possibly getting near "creeper gear" like doings.

more humps = more torque
less humps = less torque

more humps = act like another hyd motor being added in parrallel
1 hump = act like a single hyd motor.

height of the a "wave" errr humps = length of cylinders

distance from peak to peak and GPM (gallons per minute) of hyd oil, and diameter of cylinders and length of cylinders, and amount of them between peak to peak all multiplied by humps on ring = RPM (revolutions per minute)

1 hump = a flat ring, and might as resemble a bent axial pump
2 humps = getting symetrical and applying even pressure to each half
3 humps = i would think, would be min, to basically hold things together. might resemble a planetary gear, with 3 plant gears.
4 plus humps = just adding more torque and reducing RPM's if staying with exact same GPM of hyd oil.

thinking i might be able to use some "plates" with holes/slots put into them to act like valves possibly. so i can switch things around to allow series vs parallel combinations, and in essence gearing. for GPM of hyd oil.

i think i might be able to get away from all gears (spur to planetary) gears completely for transmission like doings, and turn this hyd motor, directly into a rim, or setup that might mimic a electrical wheel motor.

if i keep the humps completely symmetrical, i should be able to "reverse" flow of hyd oil. and get forward and reverse out of this hyd motor. that would mean hyd cylinders would need to be perpendicular to the this waved ring.
==============
hhhmmmssss never really thought about it, changing angle of hyd cylinder to the waved ring. about all that would do is change length of the cylinders, in a fix displacement pump. and change the load points. na.. as cylinders contract, it would be counter productive.

perhaps instead of angling cylinders in line with the ring, perhaps angling the hyd cylinders in towards the center of the ring. na... that would change direction of were power is being transfered to. i would need to "mirror" every cylinder on opposite side of the ring.

================
on other hand, maybe i can make this a variable displacement pump. by some how moving this waved ring further away from the cylinder block. in which case perpendicular would be wanted. it would be problematic though trying to get a 12" to 16" inch ring, to accurately move, the exact same distance and keep it level to the cylinder block. would be the challenge.

=============
hhmmmsss, how do i deal with the rods of the cylinders running on this ring. do i simply make a cup, so a ball bearing rides in the cup and then rids on this ring. or do i actually make, a metal roller / wheel and do a grove cut in the cylinder.

a tapered cylindrical shape bearing might work better. enlarges contact area.

===============
===============


looking at bottom diagram of above picture, and math. a fixed displacement pump might be only way to make room for things. and make it double sided, waved ring, if there was 4 humps, on each side, it would make it a 8 way hyd motor.

putting say a 45 degree angle to cylinders. so cylinder ends point in towards the center. man, that would be tearing the living daylights out of the ring. and warp the ring to up. if not beefed up. though it would help change which direct force was placed on the ring.


then again maybe not. not sure if i could ever get a nice perfect constant wave at any angle beyond cylinders setup at right angles to the waved ring. other words there would be to much variation and the rods of the cylinders would be all over the place. it might be possible. but would end up with using ball bearings. vs being able to use roller wheels or cylindrical shape ball bearings between rods of cylinders and this waved ring. and being at an angle, a ball bearing would more likely want to slide further and end up causing the rod to bend and twist destroying the hyd motor sooner than later.

 

[boggen]

6 inlets (3 top 3 bottom)
6 outlets (3 top 3 bottom)
3 humps top
3 humps bottom
6 total hyd motors
50 cylinders top
50 cylinders bottom
50 rods / pistons (common rod/piston between top and bottom cylinders)
100 rollers (2 per rod / piston) that rides on the the humps

.6 inch = cylinder diameter

1" length a rod will extend out, before contracting.

7.5 inches thick so far. more likely 8.5 to 9 inches thick maybe a little thicker once i figure out were bearings get placed.

physical overall diameters most likely will change some plus or minus a couple inches, to deal with bearings. at moment inch diameter, and it is were inner edge of rim connects

============================
need to figure out "gearing" or rather how to connect the 6 inlets and 6 outlets. to provide gearing.

below is quick and dirty attempt at showing 6 regular run of the mill hyd pumps, with inlet / outlets for hyd oil. and trying to setup some sort of "manifold" to direct flow of hyd oil.



A = deadly, on friction, as cylinders come into the hyd oil coming from the hyd pump, the difference in pressure is going to hurt. all the other cylinders are basically there for the ride, and simply circulating hyd oil through all cylinders so everything can be kept "cooled" via hyd oil coolers located on the SSTT

B = might be advantage, i could pump 6 times the GPM into this hyd wheel motor, and still achieve a high RPMs, but friction loss in hoses and pipes leading from hyd pump to a single hyd wheel motor would eat friction losses up quickly. though, in transport mode, nothing else would require hyd oil. and might give a nice boost to performance for top road speed and keep friction down inside this wheel motor.

C and D = might be a descent gear changers, help spread out the force and get either Torque or RPMs pending on GPM of hyd oil

question is do i want a jump skip and a beat, for 1,2,3,4,5 set of cylinders running at a given time. and get away from the parallel and series setup.

 

[boggen]

trying to figure out "flow pattern" to keep min amount of valving down, thought about trying to stay with generic 3 way and 4 way valves (1 in, 2 out, or 1 in 3 out) type of valves.



though still inclined to go with 1 to 3 plates with groves / slots in them, and/or holes in them. and possibly using 1 or 2 small size electrical motors, to barely turn things, perhaps electrical over hydraulic. to turn the valving plates.

i been actually thinking about. using something like a wet disc break, or clutch setup. were you have multi discs and then compress the discs together, to break or to engage the clutch. but rather, in this case, allow the plates to spin just enough with to next divits, and then some how compress the valve plates back together. to form a nice tight seal. between the plates.

if i go with regular hyd spool valves, seen on many tractors to control 3pt hitch and 3pt hitch implements, along with FEL (front end loader) of tractors, it would simply require way to many valves to make things worth while. as in a min of 6 to 18 spool valves. just no way to physical place that many. let alone needing to rely on electrical servos to control all them valves.

================
hhmmsss... i think it is finally starting to click of how to run groves and holes for the valve plates.

 

[boggen]

figuring out a how to make a 3D maze.... drawing them mazes on paper using a pen, as a child was easy. but still a tad overwhelmed on this one. i always hated when i just barely over drew a line, and not able to erase the pen mark. but this time, i am eerked with myself not able to visualize all the paths yet.

current thoughts...... using some sort of 0-rings, or gasket between each valve plate. and then dropping some screws through all the plates and torquing down the bolts. to make a nice solid leak proof valve body. that is circle in shape.

then using multi slave "spool valves" that are controlled by 3 to 4 actual master control valves. the 3 to 5 master control valves have electrical actuators to control them. and the multi slave spool valves are only on/off control valves. possibly acting as a 3 way valve. were there is only 1 slot adjustment either up or down. and nothing in between.

other words, each master control valve, when open, sends hyd oil. that opens 1 to 12 plus slave spool valves to "on" position all at the same time. and when master control valve is closed, it causes the 1 to 12 plus slave spool valves to move to "off" position all at the same time. other words, like moving one lever on FEL (front end loader of tractor) and causing 2 cylinders (1 on left, and 1 on right) on FEL to extend or contract at same rate / pressure. but in this case it would be 1 to 12 plus on/off spool valves

i am thinking this would allow computer to automatically choose what "gear" in idea. to choose from on the fly, and be able to skip any interment gears in between.

all slave valves, would have constant pressure, being placed on them, and be plumbed directly to the 3000PSI hose coming from the main hyd pump on the SSTT. the pressure would either hold all the valves open or close, pending on direction of the 3 to 5 master valves. thoughts are, this would allow for any sort of "internal leakage" in the multi valves.

====================
the big issue, is how in the world will i keep a nice even internal passage ways, were all these spool valves will need to operate. other words the slave spool valves may need to move past a few valve plates. and how do i keep the 0-ring / seal on the slave spool valves from. wearing out on just the slightest of edges that there might be between each valve plate.

i really can not drop a "short pipe" down through a hole in multi valve plates and let spool valve run through center of pipe. due to end of pipe and passage way it will either need to block / unblock to allow hyd oil to flow. and there would be a edge/s there that would tear up the 0-ring / seal that would be critical to operation of this overall hyd motor.

==================
think it just hit me, i am going to make the valve plate thickness, thick enough. to drill holes from the outside edge, into the center edge of the valve plate. and then tap each hole for threads. and put some plugs in, and before putting last plug in, for a give drilled hole. toss in a spool valve. this would give me a nice consistent hole of exact same diameter all the way through, that i could rely on for 0-rings / seals on each slave spool valve to operate within.

============
one more issue, and that is "pressure relief valves" like doing. on each inlet/outlet ((due to hyd oil can be reversed to run this overall hyd motor in opposite direction)) hhmmsss.... when all 6 hyd motor sets are operating in parallel. pressure relief valves most likely not be needed. but when there operating in the other 3 modes. going to need to put something in there for any hyd motor operating in series, that is not connected directly to a inlet or outlet port.

hhmmssss... getting to far ahead of myself, need to get master/slave valves done and deal with groves in plates and then re-look at were pressure relief valves might be needed. heck might be more called "pressure balancing".

 

[boggen]

took break over weekend on SSTT. started again on the master / slave valving yesterday, and never was able to get anything done that was worthwhile. crashes took out majority of the work happen yesterday.

today started going good, till last recent crash, and figure take a little breather, on the forums.



it is proving more difficult than what i thought it would take for valving manifold. if i could just run hoses and use a cube shape like box, and drill a bunch of holes in the cube, it would have most likely been done. but the whole trying to get groves to go around a circle. and drill holes for slaves and master valves and make it machinable is more challenging than what i envisioned.

 

[boggen]

memtester86+ showing a bunch of memory errors now. and with windows also giving problems with hard disk, i am not sure if this pc going to last till black friday / cyber monday. i may end stepping away from SSTT, for a week or 2, till i get things hopefully resolved.

looking at various websites, last few days, and prices are starting to come down. to a point were dual core processor, 8 gig ram, 1 gig video card, will become the new "budget" line computer. and hopefully i can get a quad core, 16 gig ram, 2 gig video card. but i doubt i will get the later or less luck lets me snag a good deal.

===============
back at it, might as well run this computer into the trash can. if anything, with computer crashing, it is forcing me to "become faster" at autodesk inventor. kinda like time trials for race cars to bike races... and needing least amount of time to score higher in starting position for the main race.

 

[boggen]

hit newegg website last night, right before going to bed, and "shell shocker" came up.

16 gig ram, motherboard, a10 5800k quad AMD cpu with heatsink/fan, 450w power supply, case, case fans. for 110 bucks off plus free shipping. and quickly got and paid for it.

tried this morning to see if i could build a similar setup, was able to get power supply, motherboard, memory upgraded some, same CPU for 50 bucks more (no case). called newegg to see if i could re-do order. and everything was shipped out already. and no way to cancel things, beyond waiting for packages to arrive. and then telling shipper, to send back to original location. newegg noted they would give 100% money back. but just no way to stop packages, once there labels been printed. called ups and dhl, and same thing with them, just let the packages arrive, and tell person to return to shipper.

just really do not understand, why it is not possible to click a few buttons, and let the machines that do all the sorting for packages, re-route a package. vs sending packages 3/4 way across US, then back again.

even with newegg stating 100% money back like it was no biggy. tad un-easy, ordering the other stuff. till the current order gets returned and charged back to credit card, my luck if i do not wait. i will end up getting some sort of service fee or like, making things cost prohibited.

on a different note: newegg is way to fast at shipping stuff out! if that makes sense.

 

[boggen]

looks like monday / tuesday, will be getting parts from newegg, prices have went up across all websites. so looks like i am sticking with the shellshocker deal i got.

couple days ago, put in a rented dvd, into computer dvd drive. and walked away to do something else. came back to find dvd never loaded and sat there and spun for 30 plus minutes. and fiddle around trying to get dvd to load for a few more minutes, finally shut computer down, and got some compressed air to see about cleaning the dvd drive out. and had pieces of melted plastic blowing out. the little sticker around the center hole of rented dvd came off, and got caught up some place and basically melted and tore up into everything inside the dvd drive.

so ordered a new dvd drive, and got lucky for free 3 day ship. from newegg.com hopefully tuesday it will show up.

been backing up all files, on to a couple hard drives, making sure i have duplicates of things. way things been going.

==================
can not run autodesk inventor till upgrades get done. so been searching for "robtic farming" and like terms.

about nearest things i have came across is vertical farming, ((plants put in planters that are on multi racks)) and then "swarm bots" bunch of little robots going out and doing things.

so far, not real happy of what i have came across. most all the idea's i have seen, are single row type tillage, planters, fertilizers, harvesters. and been scratching my head, of what use a single row doings of even a couple row doings would benefit anyone. about nearest thing i could think of, would be maybe vegetables, and root like crops, or tree grown fruits and like. but even then, most of what i saw was, robotic arms, that would have to be moving extremely fast, to pick fruit or like and move to a conveyer belt or chute to carry fruit and vegetables back to the farmstead or processing plant. i could understand possibly using a "mail sorting" or "packaging sorting" plant like UPS or USPS, or fedex might use, to scan packages, but in this case scan trees, plants, for fruits or vegetables.

i have not ran across much of anything that handles multi row crops. beyond putting some cameras on today's age tractors and tossing some computers were the driver would go. and let things run on there own via GPS or like system.

===============
swarm bots maybe something eventually, but at moment just do not see them happening. computer chips, and energy to power the swarm bots. over hundred of acres within a short time frame is just not there. make it batteries, to fuel cells, to other fuel (gas or diesel) or other, i just do not see energy being there for swarm bots. granted given a few more unknown amount of years to let things progress in technology ok, but right now... just do not see them happening.

in current age tractors, and more so implements, with multi sensors, and like that could be placed on implements. i think will need to be done and proven first. before things get to a point were swarm bots will have a chance to even make it.

======================
it has been bugging me for some time, and that is how corn stalks to bean stalks, to other, are just chewed up and spit out of combines. i realize there is a limit of how much you can talk from a field or rather make that soil. and then have to pump chemicals back into the soil to make up for what was removed. but figure by now, more machines might be out there, that collected the stalks / stems / leaves from corn and beans. and perhaps bundled the stalks up or put shut it all out into a "row" to be picked up by another harvester, to make bails out of, and be sent off some place.

also wondering why, not more grain trailers, might be out fitted. so they could be turned into "huge" shop vacs, and be ran across say a bean field, after bean field has been harvested with regular combine. and then all the beans and stalks, captured in the grain trailer. and brought back to feed live stock. vs dealing with fences, and hot wires, and trying to move livestock out into fields. huge amount of fields all around me, that no longer have fence lines, like they once did 20 plus years ago for cattle and other livestock.

is there a way, to create say 60 foot line "FEL" front end loader bucket" that digs down 24 inches deep, and lifts the soil up, then cuts the soil up, crumbles the soil, injects fertilizer, and drops it back down through chutes? perhaps putting seeds into the soil at same time?

instead of cutting stalks or raking crops into a combine header, is there a way to use "suction" like a huge shop vac. and create enough wind power. to pull the corn, beans, etc... off the stalk. and then send through a separator, that allows things to move about pending on "weight" of were they exit the separator? i guess i should be calling it a centrifuge for chemicals, or settling chamber if referring to ponds and waste management. bah never mind that idea, crop would be bouncing all over the place and most likely end up being destroyed.

is there a way to harvest, and plant / put seeds in at the same time? na, i doubt that would ever happen.

would better results happen, if you say, cut the corn stalk right at the ground or perhaps 1/2" to 1" below the ground. and then placed all the stalks with corn / cobs still all together, into a row. and brought another machine in, that did the seperating. na that would be pointless.

instead of the typical "flat ground" fields normally are that have easy slopes here and there. is there a way to "hill" the field. kinda like potato hills, or perhaps rice fields. that get flooded for irrigation. and plant say 2 rows of corn or beans, a couple inches apart, and then next hill over be say 6 inches over. for another 2 rows. kinda of a "vertical plant" or rather hydroponics. but "field style" hydroponics.

different idea, take corn, drop it down every 10 inchs apart in a row. but right beside that row, hammer a pipe down into the ground, and have it stick up 6 to 8 feet into the air. and fill pipe up with dirt. and drop a corn seed in the top of the pipe. to "double" the rows up per say. na issue of light would be a problem. or perhaps setting rows up to go with sun rise / sun set. to get light down to the lower plants. that will not work.... most likely it would take, 3 to 6 rows of corn, 1st row ground level, 2nd shelf 4 feet, up, 3rd row, 8 feet, off ground, so on and so forth till the top shelf each shelf having beans or corn or what not on it, and then physical next row with 6 shelves being placed 4 feet or more apart. to allow both a machine to get down between lines of shelves, but to also let sun / light to get to lower plants.

ok what about upside down V shape. shelving vs straight up and down like above. upside down V would basically turn into A frame like support structure, and perhaps allow more shelving and in that more rows of crops.

hhmmmsss.... controlled erosion farming. build hills into regular farm fields that are flat.... say 12 feet wide by 5 feet tall. upside down V shape. and do not plant up and down the hills. but "across" the hill faces. and using the low spot between the hills, as a "catch water basins" with little dirt dams every so often to help catch water and dirt. the rows of crop on the hills faces would be planted much closer together. vs regular flat field. perhaps gaining so many extra rows in "controlled erosion farming" vs standard flat fields. the low spots between hills would initially look like road size ditches, to let water drain out, but during tilling, planting, harvesting, quick make shift dams, be destroyed / rebuilt, to hold the water.

================
google "vertical farming" turn metal into large scale buildings, into hydroponics on grand scale.

do know, think we are a ways off on world scale doings. then again... from all the wild life out there, along with wind damage, and dealing with to much rain and not enough rain. and 365 day year growing season, for what ever crop was wanted....

nearest thing, i could see without huge extra investments, into metal, plastics, etc... would be turning flat land, into "smallish hills" so more rows of crop could be planted per same physical space. without actually building a structure that allows crops to be grown over top of other crops.

not really seeing issue for SSTT, or even current age tractors, (above paragraph). the question would come down, sizing the hills for tractors and implements and soil charaistics of how much slope the mini hills in the field could become. and spacings for the various plants out there. and then dealing with possible drought years, to extremely wet years.

 

[boggen]

finally back up and running with basically new computer!
YA! no more excuses of computer problems!

still have not fully overclocked cpu / ram. to fullest potential, had enough problems with getting updates, and getting everything running software wise. before hitting hardware. need a brake from rebooting computer and crashes.

=========================
redrew, hyd motor. instead of drawing solid rings, and drilling holes, cutting, lathing, etc.... this time around just drew stuff to show the internal path ways, hyd oil would take. the only exception is the center ring swash plate.

i am still debating on best way, to run 3000psi hyd line, and then 0psi return line. and dealing with forward/reverse.

part of problem is, making sure, hyd motor will spin either forward or reverse no matter what. other words. if wheel is stuck deep in the mud and at a dead stop of spinning in either direction.. and it takes say 5000lbs of torque to spin it forward, and only 100lbs of torque to get wheel spin in reverse. i need to make sure, when valves open or close to the hyd motor. that the wheel will not start spinning backwards. ((liquids seek path of least resistance))

to note above, it is when the wheel is at a dead stop. and wanting to get the wheel to spin forward or backward.

i already dealt with hyd pump complete lockup from dead stop and getting hyd motor / wheel to spin. to slightly offset. top and bottom waved pattern. by slightly offsetting the wave...

DUH! went to draw up picture. i can slightly offset, the manifold groves, vs offsetting the wave pattern on the multi hump swash plate. that would allow for multi hump swash plate, better structure integrity. be keeping the humps on top and bottom even with one another.

YAH! love new setup, thought autodesk locked up, but just took it awhile, to compute, old pc, would of completely crashed. and had to restart it. YA!
==========================
next issue.....

been thinking about adding proportional valves, vs solenoids.
proportional valves = partially closing or opening of valve. ((half way open or closed))
solenoid valves = on/off only.

was going to add....
15 = solenoids valves, = gear shifting
4 = proportional valves, forward / backwards (spinning of wheels / hyd motor)

proportional valves = adjusting how fast the wheel spins forward or backwards.

i am tempted, to have the computer chip. have abilty to slightly close the "outlet" to give a little bit of extra back pressure. so hyd oil pressure, evens out across the entire multi hump swash plate. but not so sure about that idea.

i might go for a regular spool valve. that you might see on regular every day tractors, with a FEL (front end loader) were there is a 3000PSI IN, 0PSI or return OUT, 2 lines, that run to cylinders on FEL arms. vs the 4 proportional valves.

problem with spool valve, is were to place it.

===============
brakes, most likely wet brakes, wet brakes = brake pads that are set in oil.

at moment i have the hyd pump setup, so there is no actual central axle or point for a wheel. and i have space inside the hyd pump i could place wet brakes, or perhaps go with smaller diameter wet discs. and come off near top of hyd pump. and tie it into 360 joint stucture and hyd pump frame. and leave everything "open" inside the wheel.

================
other issue, is bearings,

all right, think i am back on track once again. time to get busy again.

various pictures to go along with this post. (warning one large picture)

 

[boggen]

frustration set in with autodesk pretty good. and have not done anything for past week.

spent a couple days, looking at "turbines" example a fluid turbine at a DAM to generate electricity.

spent a few days, trying to figure out, how i could possibly use / create a "turbine blade" into a hyd motor. were i could have full 3000PSI of pressure coming from hyd pump. being applied and transferred out to the wheel / track that is touching the dirt. big problem, is the turbine blade would be in-cased in a air/fluid tight case. and wanting a nice "break out" force. from a dead step and getting things to turn in correct direction. it always came back to needing some sort of cylinder and rod/piston that was either spring held, or attached to some sort of rotational ring setup.

==================
different attempt is going for "multi hydraulic gear motor" based on planetary gear setup.

at moment, have a 3 way valve. (forward, neutral, reverse) that i still need to add a solenoid, and some springs. so if power loss, it defaults to neutral.

been pressing rather hard today, to figure out how to setup some passage ways. to allow for "automatic transmission" effect. between running all hyd oil through 1 spot, 2,3,4,5, or 6 spots at the same time. been wanting to setup 5 springs, a ball bearing or some sort of spool valve like doing. so a extreme high pressure on inlet side, would cause all 5 springs to be compressed, and allow ball bearing to move out of the way. and allow hyd oil to go to all 6 spots. and as pressure lowered, each of the 5 springs would close individual till pressure decreased. or perhaps, based on RPM's or torque. or i don't know.

if i went with electrical solenoids and some sensors, there would be a bunch more control. at moment looking at
--5 solenoid valves (on/off) operation, ((to turn on/off hyd fluid going to the other 5 hyd gears))
--1 solenoid valve (on/off/on) operation. ((to adjust forward, neutral, reverse))
--1 proportional valve (1 inlet 1 outlet) ((adjust amount of GPM of hyd oil going to hyd wheel motor))

if i went with springs.... i would be down to 2 valves per hyd wheel motor.
--1 solenoid valve (on/off/on) operation. ((to adjust forward, neutral, reverse))
--1 proportional valve (1 inlet 1 outlet) ((adjust amount of GPM of hyd oil going to hyd wheel motor))




below would be the normal "hydrualic gear motor"
below picture from.....
Hydraulic motors | Hydraulic Pumps & Motors content from Hydraulics and Pneumatics

the idea is to expand, on the basic "hyd gear motor" to have multiples of them. and toss in doings of a planetary gear setup. in how they all rotate.

goes over a good amount of various gas / diesel engines / motors. but one could remove spark plugs, and modify designs some to work for a hyd wheel hub motor.
Unusual Internal-Combustion Engines.

goes over a much wider engine types
The Museum of RetroTechnology

i need to look more into these types of hyd motors. and see if i could model something up. to perhaps simplify things.
inner curve piston hydraulic motor, High speed hydraulic motor, - STF HYDRAULIC TRANSMISSIONS CO.,LTD.

website is teasing me. it looks like a full set, hyd motor, brakes, rim, brackets, all ready to go in a single package.
Randall Hydraulics, Fluid Power, Poclain, MS, MSE, wheel motor, hydraulic pump, hydraulic motor, hydrostatic drive, high torque hydraulic motor, roller, crop sprayer, timber harvester, wheel assist, hydraulics

a reminder for myself, with possibly a ring gear of a "planetary gear setup" and using some clutch discs/rings.
China kawasaki M2X series parts manufacturers - Ningbo Power Hydraulic Motor Co., Ltd.

initial scroll through few pages of website, seem like a possible good source for math and explanations of things.
http://www.ansys.com/Industries/Industrial+Equipment+&+Rotating+Machinery/Pumps+&+Water+Turbines

 

[boggen]

gave up on multi gear "gear motor". to much space being taken up by the gears.

+++
picture info
+++
before giving up, drew up one manifold plate. to hold "check valves" to deal with "suction" (negative psi), and max PSI. only drew one of the 2 up. and inserted 12 of them. if i did not give up. would of went back and redone the neg and max PSI check valves. to make everything into a smaller package. also would of finished the "valve" manifold. 6 gear ratios built into it. just needed something to physically turn it. was running out of space of were i wanted to place wet discs. and partial reason of giving up multi gear "gear motor" setup.

i did setup some were plates. (orange in color) that fitted up against the valve. but was not really happy in how the groves were made for were the wear plates fitted.




================
================
quickly built a generic hyd axial motor. and added total of 3 rings. that could allow any were from 1.5 cubic inches up to 30 to 42 cubic inches of displacement per full single rotation. and allowed up to 7 gear ratios. pending on which of the 3 rings of cylinders/pistons/rods were fed hyd oil. able to reach about 70mph at 50 GPM,

tempted to press upwards of 100gpm, but internal diameter of hoses that would run from main frame of SSTT down to hyd motor and all the passage ways. would cut 3000PSI coming from main hyd pump on SSTT down to about 1500PSI. using 0.5" inch hose. 1" might allow upwards of 100GPM but still friction loss of hyd oil. running through pipes be nailing things.

i bounced back and forth way to many times between excel and autodesk. trying to figure out how to maximize amount of cylinders, to reach smallest diameter, and largest cubic inches displaced per full revolution. and just never came up with anything meaningful. a good portion was limitation. of physical length a piston/rod could be made, and diameter of it. my thoughts are diameter of piston/rod need to be smaller than the length of the piston rod. or i would end up with piston wanting to flip upside down on me. i was already reaching enough inches. that i reasonably assumed i would quickly go over 12" width tire. forcing me to go up with smaller diameter cylinders / pistons / rods. ended up massing way to many pieces.

+++
picture info
+++
nothing special. was hoping to get 3 swash plates or rather 3 rings, that each had a single hump. but never got that far.




==============
==============
gave up on above fairly quickly. when idea of some locking gears. came to mind, that might prove more promising. and operate much like "disc brakes" you find on your regular car / truck. 12" outside diameter 11" inside diameter. teeth 1" tall, with max separation of 1.75" inches. gives approx 26 cubic inches per full revolution. and applying brakes if you will, will decrease down to 0 cubic inches per revolution.

+++
picture info
+++



the "lite blue" and "dark blue" for outside the 2 gears. i'am still debating about. at moment it resembles a generic "gear motor" or "gear pump" casing around the gears. but that may change fairly quickly.

hhmmsss squirrel cage fan, i suppose kinda of a turbine setup.

why not. off set the teeth angle. from center, to a different angle. it would reduce amount of teeth possibly. hhmmss more internal leakage *big frown* but. would it provide better overall torque in low end RPMs as in creeper gears, and higher top MPH? hhmmsss. what about dead stop, and moving.

still need to figure out, how to apply forward / reverse. and how to deal with inlets/outlets. let alone figure out were to place springs, and how to get everything to work

 

[boggen]

trying to grasp how to set the "teeth" or blades up.

360 degrees / 72 = 5 degrees per arc for picture
31 teeth bottom gear / blade
31 teeth upper gear / blade

12" outside diameter
11" inside diameter

48" squared (area) per top of each tooth or between each tooth. (not counting for tolerance)

34.558" squared (area) total ((multiplied distance between top of tooth and bottom of groove)) for total cubic inches

===================
===================
===================

some assumptions....

A would work better, to have "inlet/s" and "outlet/s" on both inside, or outside of the ring gears. i doubt there would a huge difference on placement, might have harder time to predict hyd motor spins in correct direction, when at a complete stop. and then trying to move in forward or reverse.

B through F. inlet/s on inside, outlet/s on outside forward, and then inlet/s on outside, outlet/s on inside for reverse. would most likely be wanted. to help insure the hyd motor begins to spin in the correct direction.

A through F.
--A would more likely give higher RPM's and less torque
--F would more likely give lower RPM's and less torque.
--other words, distance hyd oil would have to travel. it would take hyd oil longer to travel through F vs A.
--other words, there would be more side wall area on each tooth for F vs A (see picture length) and in idea, instead of having a 1" diameter cylinder bore size for A, it gives a 3.317" diameter cylinder bore size.
--gggrrrr, my brain says above is true and false. and that it does not matter RPM's and Torque will stay the same, regardless. if using same GPM of hyd oil and same PSI of hyd oil going into the hyd motor.

amount of teeth / blades.
--more teeth / blades = more internal leakage. = less efficient
--more teeth / blades = higher RPM's hyd oil is going to be at a "pulse" between gaps between teeth /blades. that might give more "friction loss" and in that being less efficient at higher RPM's
--more teeth / blades = lower RPM's or rather at a complete stop and then going forward or reverse. i would think would give more initial breaking force.
--would assume type of metal gears are made from, will predict how many teeth are possible. harder the metal is, the more teeth. minus some teeth for "calculated life span" of the gears/blade edges.

===================
===================
===================

A = 48" area, 1.000" long, 180.0 degrees
B = 48" area, 1.067" long, 157.5 degrees
C = 48" area, 1.312" long, 135.0 degrees
D = 48" area, 1.916" long, 112.5 degrees
E = 48" area, 3.317" long, 090.0 degrees
F = 96" area, 3.317" long, 090.0 degrees

F= 2 E's side by side, in attempt to thicken up metal. on the inside diameter of the ring gears.

===================
===================
===================



i am having a hard time, with "curved" teeth/blades.
--more difficult to machine. vs a straight cut like above
--they would work awesome in one direction (forward), but i would assume produce a huge amount of internal leakage. when hyd motor was put into (reverse), due to hyd fluid would be channeled not into the groves of the teeth/blades. but by channeled more towards the outside. forcing more hyd oil to by pass the teeth / blades all together.

even with modified edges, not so sure about the pulsation of hyd fluid constantly changing direction. with the over all 2 gears/blades meshing together. to allow for a variable displacement motor. the constant pulsing, i would imagine add up some friction loss. reducing how many PSI of hyd oil goes to torque. more so at higher RPMs.

 

[murphy1244]

come up for air.

 

[boggen]

come up for air.

when ya having fun, time fly's by. not much else to say.

===========
===========

*rubs chin* next problem...

starting to sink in better, of ways, to build a gear shifting. from previous attempts...

but one of the major problems, has been, making sure the hyd motor / wheel turns in correct direction. with that, need to figure out a way to create a one way clutch, like bicycle peddle clutch. but will need 2 of these clutches, and pending on were hyd oil is pushed for forward or reverse of hyd motor/wheel. it will need to engage or dis-engage these clutches or mechanisms.

right side, quick 2D sketch, of some sort of flapper, that has springs? and some sort of hyd oil line. that feeds from the main hyd valve feeding the hyd motor. to determind direction flapper moves.

other problem once wheel starts rotating, the clutch or flapper needs to "move away" so it is not constantly trying to lock the wheel up.

 

[boggen]

and just as my head hit the pillow last night. hopefully some comprehension hit me.



going with "curved" teeth / blades, like attached picture. allows me, to have "gear ratios" per say.

total teeth 46 (23 bottom gear, 23 top gear) each tooth is a gear.

180 degress minus a couple degrees. to deal with splitting up, inlet and outlet say 178 degrees.
without counting going to say 21 gear ratios possible. by having....
forward = inlet on the inside of the ring, and outlet on outside of the ring.
reverse = inlet on the outside of ring, and outlet on inside of the ring.

180 degrees minus a couple degrees, need to deal with a single half circle.
well no... not limited to 180 degrees. if i did a 2 or more triangle shaped.
but i still would be limited to half of total teeth, or rather amount of teeth on a single gear.
--odd number teeth = minus 1 then divided by 2.
--even number teeth = divided by 2

46 teeth total so 23 gear ratios.

===============
need some sort of gear, or linkages, or something that operates with springs, and a single throttle cable (example push mower throttle cable) or by springs alone. if throttle cable was used. it would allow an electronic servo motor or some such, to adjust things. vs relying directly on springs that give up there strength over time.

need some sort of "band spring" that rolls and looks like a roll of duct tape. actually... a good old "tape measure" would work perfectly.

problem i would need 2 independent tape measures. one for forward one for reverse.
well no i take that back. still need 2 independent tape measures, but that could be linked together. actually they would need to be linked together. well no. that would cause one of them to want to "blow away" from the ring. if both pulled out for forward or reverse at the same time.

if i do the tape measures, i might be able to go with a "squirrel cage" fan. type of blade setup. na, might loose a good amount of torque. due to internal leakage. but, it might allow for more teeth/blades, and larger gear ratio bah, comparing apples to oranges.

back to autodesk to see if i can get something drawn up. getting way to many ideas, and not enough proof of concept. starting to get closer to a fluid turbine! YES! *smiles*

 

[boggen]

first rough draft.



a generic piece of metal say 1/16" thick. 2.75 inch tall. that is coiled up 6 times.
(bottom plate .5", teeth height 1", teeth height 1", top plate .5", with .25" teeth meshing together)

1 guide roller. to put the band of sheet metal up against the ports
1 start/end guide, that rotates around about 350 degrees.

1 to 21 gear ratios.
a gear = path hyd oil takes from the inside to the outside through the teeth within the 2 gears/blades. and more importantly hyd oil is in parallel and flows through these passage ways at exact same rate and amount of hyd oil.
23 teeth per gear/blade. not possible to reach a full 23 gear ratios. due to some space needed, to deal with the sheet metal band rollers and guides.

gears
outside diameter = 12 inches
inside diameter = 9 inches
path traveled (example how far a piston/rod in a gas engine might travel up and down) =
1.076 inches squared * .75 = 0.807 cubic inches for a single gear or path
0.807 cubic inches * 21 gears = 16.947 total cubic inches for all gears.
but surface area...and length, not sure what numbers would be needed. so surface area and length, could be computed to compare to a generic piston rod diameter and length the piston rod travels.

having doubts at moment, never tinkered with anything like this. ya i have taken a "box floor fan" that is say 16" square, with 15" diameter fan blade inside of it, to cool off in summer, and unplugged it, and taken a garden hose to it, to clean the blades off from build up of muck and dust. and got the blades to spin, and have taken a computer case fan, and submerged it under water, and put a garden hose up a near the blades to get them to spin. but never a squirrel cage fan, and more to it using some sort of band, to select were fluid runs through certain blades.

the concept of "curved" passage ways, to make the passage way hyd oil has to take through the 2 gears longer, not completely sure of. i want to think, it would create a higher torque values, from a dead stop and getting things rotating. but still not sure about that. i want to say only thing that is going to actually make the numbers talk, is the location were hyd oil "enters" and then "exits" the 2 ring gears. that surface area. that contact area. between the gears and the inlet/outlet manifolds.

 

[boggen]

spent a day, trying to deal with a curved path, only to realize, that i was going about the path or rather make that a grove, wrong. hopefully this better spiraled grove, will work out much better.



though now i need to figure out how to, create something like a "chain saw" chain. but instead of a cutting edge of teeth, there will be curved edge, that seals up 1 of the 23 groves for gear ratios on the inside.

though now after typing last paragraph up. not sure if a chain with grooved path is wanted. perhaps i need a way to move 22 valves out and away. other words think of an out door garden hose faucet, but instead of twisting a handle to open / close, a metal band. that is perhaps twisted and coiled into the center, the more twisting and tighter the band gets, the more valves get opened up.

see how the chain idea works out first i guess. same idea as above. but instead of chain slide out of the way. the chain in above idea is built directly into things. less moving parts. less grinding and sticking problems than a chain would give. problem is can i get band to twist and coil back into a spiral enough. hhmmsss...

 

[boggen]

and away i kick the spiral away from me.

never felt like completing a spiral band spring, do-hickey, just do not think it would ever pay off, to much trouble trying to predict the band tension long haul, and in that if the 24 valves would be open/closed.

spiral pattern, is nice for a spring that is coiled up. but does seem to be happening for me. to much trouble. and from what i can tell no benefits.

=================
below pic....

forgot to add springs, into the 24 inner valve plates. and did not finish out the valve plates out the outer race way.
*cries mercy* need to go back in and add bolts/nuts, and bearings. time to head back to autodesk, for another full redraw.



the grooved path. some some roller like bearing wheels. i am hoping, will pull the valve plates away, and then hold the valve plates X distance away, till the grooved path is rotated in opposite direction, were combination of grooved path and spring, help seat the valve plate.

still trying wondering what i am going to do with valve plates, and inside diameter of ring they push up against, i have a rectangular slot to cover. but would be nice to obtain a "circluar" shape. or cone or something. to better ensure valve plate seats. and help reduce hyd oil leakage.

 

[boggen]

and, now i am back to square 1, ok maybe not step 1.

just not enough space.

pic info....
quick rough made tire, 24" diameter, 2" depth treads, 4" side wall, = 12" diameter i have to play with.
12" width minus 1.5" on each side, for tire bead. gives 9"
others words 12" diameter x 9" long cylinder....



===============
i would like to stay with the turbine like setup with blades/teeth. but not sure how to set things up now. before had a picture in my mind of brakes, and frame connection, and half way idea of how things would fit up to tire. but now...

at moment 13.7 inches, and by time i get a case around things most likely 15" inches in diameter. also at current moment only 2.5 inches thick. thinking of turning blades 90 degrees. so the valves get turned 90 degrees. should help me reduce things back down to say 11 inches in diameter, by 6 inches or so thick.

but how do i add brakes into the mix. 11" diameter minus 2" radius, giving 9" diameter left. i guess that would give me enough space to cram in some wet brakes. problem is, is there enough space left in the center, to run wires, hydraulics, physical frame support through center, and to other side of things that would rotate with the wheel.

man, just relying on some bolts or a large nut over axle. to hold 2 sides together, and all the forces pushing things away. either brakes are going to need to come off the rim / tire connection. or perhaps some sort of planetary gear setup. to run brakes in the center, so i can get bolts closer to the outside diameter.

ok instead of coming off the outside diameter, and center of the turbine blade, perhaps pancaking, things, and off setting, rim connection a couple inches. and coming off a central axle. vs a circular connection couple inches off of dead center.

==========
on different note, tempted to convert all the valves, over to electrical over hydraulics. instead of using 2 small size electrical motors. to twist a lever that opens / closes the valves. just not to keen of putting that many electronic devices, that close to the ground, were things are getting bumped and banged around.

 

[boggen]

grown tired of mechanical linkages, i may not be a pro at them by no means, but just way to many limitations with them at least for what i have came up with so far. and looking at electric to control each valve individually.

==========



been tearing up autodesk, with a bunch of generic 2D sketches and limited extrusions. to see how much "room" i had for either small little DC motors, or DC solenoids.

DC motors. i have for most part gave up on. even with reduction gears. to convert RPM's to more torque, to move things. i just became skiddish of all the rotation and parts. more so when considering up to 48 valves and in that 48 small size DC motors, per hyd wheel.

DC solenoids. is yes and no. i am afraid if i went with straight connection from solenoid to the valve. to move it, that the valve would end up bouncing and vibrating all over the place. so tried a couple designs, of solenoids operating a small size hyd valve, and then small size hyd valve, operating the physical valve. ((other words reduction gear)) to obtain higher torque or force to push/pull the valve open/close. this has been a pain in rump, trying to squeeze things down, to a min amount of space. and still have not achieved what i would like.

my last, internet search, has been on "rotatory solenoids" i might be able to use a small size cylinder shaped ball valve, and "rotatory solenoid". to obtain just what i want. i need at moment i want to say 80 to 90 degree rotation. to go from full open, to full close. i do not think there should be that much force needed. to turn the valve, exception expansion/contraction of metals. and possibly causing amount of torque needed to go up. has me worried there. the other issue, is "pressure shocks" against a valve that is in the closed position.

================
some other issues, been keeping with idea of wanting a "solid ring" that would hold all the solenoids. or 2 half circles. and i am a little uneasy, after remembering of different materials, contract / expand at different amounts and at different rates.
--i am not to thrilled about having 25 wires per side, (1 pos common, and 24 neg) or (48 total), not counting wires that run back up to the sstt. and a solid ring or 2 half rings, would really, help reduce "space" wires took up. that or going with a 1 or up to 3 layer circuit board.

another issue, is reducing overall amount of electricity is needed, at moment here is 24 solenoids per side, for total of 48 solenoids. i was wanting to put a spring in each solenoid to either have them normally always open or normally always closed. but this would either cause for MAX RPM's to require the most electricty, or MAX Torque to require the most electricity.
--with above said, i think i am going to do half/half. or rather i should say, every other solenoid will be normally open and the others will be normally closed, and same thing for opposite side, if aligned correctly each side, this should reduce, max electricity needed, by half, for majority of all gear ratios.

===========
gear ratios... or rather what valve is open or closed.

mechanical linkages i have came up so far, would basically act like a "wedge" of pressure to split the case open in half due to order of valves open and closing. going with electrical solenoids, should allow pressure to be even out around the entire case. the exception highest gear ratio that allows for MAX RPMs.

for even pressure, i am thinking of even sided polygons. or shapes, example triangle, square, pentagram, octagon, all the way up to 24 valves being either open or closed. the points of the polygon = valves, and should help allow for more even pressure across the entire hyd motor.

============
pure amount of solenoids per hyd motor, times all the hyd motors... = a few hundred solenoids.

i am thinking of a "diagnostic" or rather make that a "maintenance" computer self test. that takes readings from RPM sensor, torque sensor, hyd oil pressure sensors, and applies and does not apply breaks. and goes through each solenoid, opening and closing each one. and see if it is operating. example if valve is suppose to be open and wheel is up in the air and not contacting anything, but wheel does not spin up to a certain RPM, valve is most likely bad. so the diagnostic / maintenance program, sends a command, to chip that controls that set of solenoids, that that solenoid is bad. the chip, will then work around that chip for gear ratios of opening / closing other valves. pending if valve is stuck either in open or closed or part way. i would like to think the computer chip would be able to adjust things accordingly.

figure, 1 solenoid going bad, is a warning, but "low on priority", half dozen solenoids on the same side on other hand is RED light. something is wrong, and puts warning message up to operator.

===========
alright, getting there....

--48 blades on the turbine.
--24 solenoids per side. (total 48)
--computer chip per side for each set of solenoids.
--4 way hyd proportional valve. ((primary valve)) (forward, reverse, neutral, braking) combined with the 48 secondary solenoid valves.
--primary computer chip for hyd motor
--RPM sensor

--Pressure gauge, on inlet side ( coming from main hyd pump on SSTT))
--Pressure gauge, on outlet side (going back to main hyd pump on SSTT))
--pressure gauge, side A (going to left side of hyd pump)
--pressure gauge, side B (going to right side of hyd pump)

--temperature gauge.

--brakes
--80 psi pressurized air (emergency brake and/or parking brake)
--electric over hydraulic most likely solenoid, to apply brakes.

--unknown brake sensor

==================
the 4 pressure gauges, should give me a way, to calculate "pressure drop" and estimate with caculation of GPM of hyd oil. along with estimated torque.

if i can roughly estimate GPM both flowing in and out of the hyd motor. i should be able to through a very ugly "red warning" message to operator, that might state "hydraulic oil leak" and stop the machine possibly.

the 4 pressure gauges, should allow me, to control what gear ratio, or rather how many solenoid valves to open / close. and how much to adjust the proportional valve. per hyd motor.

====================
tempted to toss away the 4 way proportional valve, and go with TWO 3 way valves. for backup purpose, and perhaps better finite control. both in adjusting RPMs and torque, put perhaps braking as well. also "load balancing" between multiple hyd motors.

load balancing, sold me on TWO 3 way valves. i would like to think it would give me almost double the range in adjusting everything for load balancing,
i should be able to use same amount of pressure sensors, if i place them in a proper place.

==========
temperature gauge, not sure will be useful or not. beyond adding cost.

i could see some issues were certain hyd motors say being nearest to the ends of the SSTT. needing more torque or higher RPM's for turns, and might become warmer. thinking with use of the TWO 3 way proportional valves, and 48 solenoid valves. that some extra GPM of hyd oil could go through these warmer hyd motors. to help aid in additional cooling.

if things are not warmed up yet at specific hyd motor, then perhaps, causing extra solenoid valves to be closed, causing more friction of hyd oil, more friction = more heat = help warm up the hyd oil quicker. might be useful for transport wheels that will most likely be operating majority of the time, vs hyd motors on field on wheels or tracks. that would be lifted off the ground during transportation.

================
brakes....

wet discs. (friction discs sat directly into the hyd oil)

not sure if i want to use a pressure sensor, or a distance sensor, or something else (have no clue what else) to determined if brakes are applied and by how much. going to need to look at "rotational torque sensors" better. not liking idea of "slamming on the brakes" type of thing to happen. or rather more specifically hitting the brakes a tad quickly. as stuff goes sliding off seats and onto the floor of the truck/car.

=================
=================
=================
still might be able to reach me goals for space! *big grin* just hope i can keep the weight down.

for a couple hours spent some time thinking about, how folks can add "wheel weights" to rims of tractor tires. but modifying the weights, so they act like a "fly wheel" with a clutch. so the weight (fly wheel) rotates along with tire, to help rotate the tire at a more constant RPM's

also thought about, adding an extra cover over hyd motor casing onto one side. and some how, pump air in, to remove weight, and then let air be pumped out, filling this extra cover with hyd oil to add weight. the idea never got that far, one mixing air with hyd oil, not real ken on. and also not sure it would be worth it. (limited amount of space, or make that volume) hyd oil could fill up. those few extra gallons most likely would never be seen. or make things worth while. vs just adding an actual metal weight to the tire rim / hyd motor.