Home AC Welder Breaker ???

[Beltzington]

According to the welders owners manuel I need a 50-Amp 230v breaker to run my new to me stick welder and I have an open single breaker space on my GE panel. I can buy a 50-amp dual throw breaker that will fit in this slot. My service is 200-amp and currently I am running <70% capicity with everything turned on, I would not run our 30-amp dryer while welding so I believe I would still be pulling less amps than capacity but would be close. My concern is possible feedback (amp surges or voltage spikes) that might damage the expensive electronics in my home. Is there something more I should do then just connect the outlet? TIA

 

[k0ua]

How do you get 230 volts out of a single breaker slot?. You have to have connection to both legs of the entrance. and all the boxes I have seen alternate the legs in each slot as it goes down the box.. I am confused..
As for transients coming out of the welder, I have never killed anything in my house (Solid state modern Ham radio equipment , entertainment electronics etc)

James K0UA

 

[groundcover]

I have had my Lincoln hooked up in a bunch of houses and shops and never did anymore than pop a 50amp breaker in the panel and let her rip,never had any issues. Good luck .

 

[CNC Dan]

should be fine.

Welder shouldn't make any more spikes on the lines than the dryer or fridge turning on and off. But if you want to you could add a hole house surge supressor to the panel when you add the breaker.

 

[Buckgnarly]

How do you get 230 volts out of a single breaker slot?. You have to have connection to both legs of the entrance. and all the boxes I have seen alternate the legs in each slot as it goes down the box.. I am confused..
As for transients coming out of the welder, I have never killed anything in my house (Solid state modern Ham radio equipment , entertainment electronics etc)

James K0UA

I am going to guess he uses the slim style double throws that fit in the thicker slot....at least that's what I use in my garage.

 

[Lightnsound]

But if using a double handled breaker that fits in a single space, 240 volts will not be what's coming out. A breaker of this type can give you two branch circuits, but they will both be on the same leg. This means that the welder will see 0 volts coming in as there will be no difference in potential between the two hot wires coming off the breaker.

What you want to do is put the welder on a two space two pole breaker which will provide the 240 volts you need. If necessary, use a double handled single space breaker to replace two 20 amp branch circuits to make the room in the breaker panel.

And don't worry about the welder creating spikes and whatnot. Lots of people have welders, some like me have several, and I haven't heard about anyone having the issues you are concerned about. My power company provides me with a lot more spikes and sags than my welders do.

 

[LD1]

How do you get 230 volts out of a single breaker slot?. You have to have connection to both legs of the entrance.

James K0UA

I was wondering the same thing?

I am also wondering what he means by "currently at 70% capacity"?

Cause a 200a service, if you are at 70% capacity, that means you are using 140a of power at a given time. That is unlikely or your electric bill would be astronomical.

But even so, 70% of 200 is 140. That leaves you 60a in reserve. You are only using a 50a. Whats the problem??

And if you do overdraw, thats what the 200a main breaker is for:thumbsup:

 

[Beltzington]

But if using a double handled breaker that fits in a single space, 240 volts will not be what's coming out. A breaker of this type can give you two branch circuits, but they will both be on the same leg. This means that the welder will see 0 volts coming in as there will be no difference in potential between the two hot wires coming off the breaker.

What you want to do is put the welder on a two space two pole breaker which will provide the 240 volts you need. If necessary, use a double handled single space breaker to replace two 20 amp branch circuits to make the room in the breaker panel.

And don't worry about the welder creating spikes and whatnot. Lots of people have welders, some like me have several, and I haven't heard about anyone having the issues you are concerned about. My power company provides me with a lot more spikes and sags than my welders do.

Good Point - I was at the box store today and was looking at available c/b options, thanks for bringing this up, looks like I need to take a closer look at the bus bars. My AC and dryer both are running off the same side of the panel so I "assumed"....

I used a clamp on on amp meter before I built-on an addition which is why I know the current draw. I turned everything on which is obviously is not normal and was surprised curren was as low as it was.

 

[Lightnsound]

My AC and dryer both are running off the same side of the panel so I "assumed"....

I think you are under the common misconception that one line is on one side of the panel, and the other line runs down the side. In fact both lines are on both sides. They alternate spaces. Both top spaces are on one line, the second space both sides are on the other line, and they alternate the whole way down. This is how you get 120 or 240 volts. Plug in a single space breaker and you grab one hot and then the circuit returns to neutral. Hot to neutral voltage is 120v. If you put in a two space breaker it grabs both lines, one on each of of the adjacent spaces. The circuit then runs from one hot to the other. Line to line voltage is 240v.

As far as approaching the capacity of your 200 amp service, take another current reading. This time just meter what it is on a typical day instead of metering it with everything running. My house usually pulls down less than 10 amps per leg to run the TV and whatever lights are on. Even if we were cooking thanksgiving dinner, doing laundry, and had every light and TV in the house going, I don't think it would get close to the 200 amps per leg that you can get through your main breaker before it pops.

 

[k0ua]

Good Point - I was at the box store today and was looking at available c/b options, thanks for bringing this up, looks like I need to take a closer look at the bus bars. My AC and dryer both are running off the same side of the panel so I "assumed"....

I used a clamp on on amp meter before I built-on an addition which is why I know the current draw. I turned everything on which is obviously is not normal and was surprised curren was as low as it was.

When you open the box and look at it you will see only 1 connection point, and it will be 115 volts between this connection and the nuetral. You will have to have a 2 connection points in the back of the box and a double wide breaker to get across both legs. to get 230 volts. You will not be able to see it because you only have one space, but look at a box in the store and see how the legs alternate positions as they go down the box from the main breaker at the top. Like Lightndsound said you can get a double breaker (in a single slot) for two of your other circuits and move one of the single breakers out and put in a "double" single slot breaker to make room for a double breaker for 230 volts. Good luck..

James K0UA

 

[k0ua]

Well he knows the error of his ways now with 3 of us telling him the same thing

James K0UA

 

[joshuabardwell]

Welder shouldn't make any more spikes on the lines than the dryer or fridge turning on and off. But if you want to you could add a hole house surge supressor to the panel when you add the breaker.

Dan,

My understanding is that whole-house suppressors (such as the kind that attach behind the meter) protect the house from surges coming in from the outside. I don't see how they would protect something inside the house from something else inside the house that was making a surge. IMO, the safest thing to do is to put whatever appliances you are concerned about onto a surge suppressor, and then it doesn't matter where the surge is coming from, you're protected.

As a side note on this topic: all surge suppressors that a typical consumer is going to encounter are consumable. What this means is that, after so many surges, the suppressor loses the ability to protect. This is what the joules rating indicates. The higher the joules rating, the more surges the suppressor can absorb before it is worn out. Here's the kicker: some surge suppressors--mostly the cheap ones--don't give any indication that they have used up their protection. They just keep on working, with you none the wiser. So when you go shopping for a surge suppressor, make sure to get one with a "protecting" light that goes out when the suppressor is used up. Better, yet, get one that simply cuts the power once it is no longer able to protect the equipment. That way, you are guaranteed never to be in a state where you're un-protected and don't know it.

 

[CNC Dan]

Dan,

My understanding is that whole-house suppressors (such as the kind that attach behind the meter) protect the house from surges coming in from the outside. I don't see how they would protect something inside the house from something else inside the house that was making a surge.

think of it as a pressure relief valve in the middle of a hose.

doesn't matter if the overpressure comes from either end, as long as it opens.

 

[k0ua]

Joshua, the whole house surge arrester will do some good for internally generated spikes also, as it is on the "buss". Current does not run thru the device, it is a "clamping device " it sits on the voltage buss and starts to conduct when the spikes rise above its conduction threshold. It does not "know" where the spike comes from, either the line or load side. There are other factors in play here like the propagation time of the wave fronts from the downstream device thru the media (the copper wire) but to get to another circuit the spike is going to have to come up the wire to the common point and the arrester will be waiting for it and clamp it to a preset level (provided it is still working ) and provided it can handle the energy in the transient. I agree that they are a "finite use device" in that they will only take so many hits and usually fail open and useless. If a whole house device were to fail shorted it would either pop the main service breaker or go up in smoke pretty quick and become open.

James K0UA

 

[joshuabardwell]

I think I see what y'all are getting at. The surge suppressor is not directional. Whenever voltage rises above the threshold, it opens and shunts to ground. The only potential for interference between devices inside the house is if they were on the same breaker, and even then, there would be a relatively short window (like, some fraction of the speed of light times the length of the wire) until the voltage reached the suppressor and was shunted. In the case of a welder, which is essentially always going to be on an isolated breaker from the rest of the house, a whole-house surge suppressor will always protect the house, because nothing else is going to be on the circuit with the breaker.

 

[k0ua]

I think I see what y'all are getting at. The surge suppressor is not directional. Whenever voltage rises above the threshold, it opens and shunts to ground. The only potential for interference between devices inside the house is if they were on the same breaker, and even then, there would be a relatively short window (like, some fraction of the speed of light times the length of the wire) until the voltage reached the suppressor and was shunted. In the case of a welder, which is essentially always going to be on an isolated breaker from the rest of the house, a whole-house surge suppressor will always protect the house, because nothing else is going to be on the circuit with the breaker.

Thats pretty much it, except the suppressor does not Open and then shunt to ground, it is across the line at all times and just clamps when the voltage spike rises above its clamp voltage.

James K0UA

 

[sdkubota]

Maske sure you have #6 cable to supply the 50 Amps...stuff is like battery cables.

 

[CNC Dan]

Hm. I guess I was thinking of it being like a lightning arrestor in an antenna system.

that would be more like a filter. And those have their place too.

inside surpressors are like two diodes in series, oposeing. They won't conduct untill the reverse breakdown voltage is reached, then it acts like a short. unlike the diode pair, once the higher voltage is gone the supressor stops conducting.

 

[Willl]

Maske sure you have #6 cable to supply the 50 Amps...stuff is like battery cables.

#6 ???