Water in the fuel

woodlandfarms · Feb 22, 2012

I guess living in the PNW I should just expect this, but last night filled the beast up, this AM, started it, ran for 20 seconds and died. Right off the bat I knew what it was. Such a bummer.

Drained the water, ran into town and got a new filter, some Diesel Red and White and headed home.

The issue is with my storage system for diesel. I am going to post it in the fuel thread but it suffice to say my bung isn't as tight as I would like (take it where you want ;-)

But FYI to anyone who goes through this.... Here are the steps.

If you are AR throw all your diesel away, drain and shop vac the tank. I am not. I have lived on a farm and know that diesel does seperate and most of the time you can make it work. So skip a bit ahead to the filters... If you are not AR, here is how I did it.

So for me it was as follows

I first unscrewed both fuel filters on the Deutz. The NAPA filter was full of water, and so was the primary screen. I had 2 plastic cups the party kind. I let the injectors drain back out of the filter holder (nearly 3 cups of diesel and water mix) and the secondary filter was taking too long so I unhooked the fuel hose and let it drain until I was sure it was red (off-road diesel).

Then off to NAPA. new filter, a bottle of RED Diesel and White Diesel additave (Red is for water removal, white is a conditioner). Back home I filled the new filter with half RED and half clean diesel and screwed it on. I put all the hoses back, dumped some RED into the tank along with WHITE and then cranked, and cranked, and cranked, and recharged the battery (mine as well, went in and had some lunch) then came out and cranked again and it slowly caught. let it idle then took it out to play. Seems like I got that issue resolved.

I am going to purchase on of those MR FILTERS as I see this as a re-occurring issue.

Hope this helps someone.

Carl

SpringHollow · Feb 22, 2012

I have used this 6 qt funnel for years for my gas atv etc:

https://www.denniskirk.com/outerwears/funnel-with-water-repellent-pre-filter.p290010.prd/290011.sku

Ken

MossRoad · Feb 23, 2012

So the water is getting into your storage tank and then you are transferring the contaminated fuel to your tractor, correct?

What are you using to store the fuel in and how are you protecting the storage tank from water? Just curious.

My tractor is gas and I use 6 gallon plastic cans. Its a pain. I would like to have a larger tank on a stand to gravity feed the PT, but have other needs for my cash right now. :laughing: Plus, gas storage is a little more dangerous than diesel storage, in my opinion.

ponytug · Feb 23, 2012

Or Carl, just get a RayCor water separator filter and put in line ahead of the first fuel screen. When it accumulates water, drain it. You can hook up a water in fuel light if you want. The filter also acts as a 30 micron prefilter which doesn't hurt. Try WestMarine or a RayCor/Parker dealer.

Even with the PNW weather, I'm not following how water gets into the tank, but I believe that it is there.

All the best,

Peter

woodlandfarms · Feb 23, 2012

I am still sussing the water issue.

1st is that a neighbor said he had once had issues with this particular vendor. I find it hard to believe that water gets into tanks anymore at gas stations but I guess it can happen. They seem so sealed up these days.

My diesel barrel has to sit under an overhang. A big overhang, but still, not in an enclosed barn. This winter I left the old pump in and the barrel empty (nearly empty). I limb had fallen, and bumped the old pump loose off the bung. It looked tight but clearly it wasn't.

Now, the drum will get a bit wet on the top, but not severe. So I don't think it is direct rain that is getting in. But with the bung loose, condensation in the air could easily have gotten in.

The thing is I pulled around a quart of water out of the system. I guess that would be a thin layer in a 55 gallon barrel but it seemed like a TON to me.

I will look into the pre filter. Debating the MR FUNNEl purchase as well. Any thoughts?

Carl

SpringHollow · Feb 23, 2012

If I have an empty gas can, it will often have water in it when i check a few months later. This is due to the contraction/expansion cycles from changes in temperature allowing warmer humid air in which allows condensation when it cools. It never seems like as much water leaves as enters but that could be from the ground being cooler than the air because it does not seem to be an issue if the can is sitting on a shelf, just on the concrete or ground.

All normal outdoor fuel tanks get condensation in them here. The water builds up because it settles to the bottom of the tank. If you installed a desiccant breather cap, one can minimize the condensation but I would think it would saturate fairly quickly. To prevent that, a heater regeneration system is now needed. As you head down this path, filters very quickly start looking like a nice solution.

Ken

jonyyuma · Feb 23, 2012

Springhollow, Interesting to read that moisture and humidity are a problem???Up there in the North? I would not dare to leave the fuel in the sunshine here??

MossRoad · Feb 23, 2012

woodlandfarms said:
I am still sussing the water issue.

1st is that a neighbor said he had once had issues with this particular vendor. I find it hard to believe that water gets into tanks anymore at gas stations but I guess it can happen. They seem so sealed up these days.

My diesel barrel has to sit under an overhang. A big overhang, but still, not in an enclosed barn. This winter I left the old pump in and the barrel empty (nearly empty). I limb had fallen, and bumped the old pump loose off the bung. It looked tight but clearly it wasn't.

Now, the drum will get a bit wet on the top, but not severe. So I don't think it is direct rain that is getting in. But with the bung loose, condensation in the air could easily have gotten in.

The thing is I pulled around a quart of water out of the system. I guess that would be a thin layer in a 55 gallon barrel but it seemed like a TON to me.

I will look into the pre filter. Debating the MR FUNNEl purchase as well. Any thoughts?

Carl

Interesting. When I used to work at the airport, we had a daily ritual requirement to "stick the tanks". This involved wiping a water finding paste on a wooden dipstick and dropping it to the bottom of the tank. We did this to both the jet fuel (kerosene) and gas. Remove the stick and any water at the bottom of the tank would turn the paste from green to purple (or purple to green, I cannot remember). We would record the inches of water in the tank. If it got to a certain level, we hired a company to come out and pump the water. The tank suction was not on the bottom of the tank. This was standard procedure.

On our fuel trucks we had another daily ritual requirement to "sump the tanks" which meant to put park the fuel truck on an incline and place a clean bucket under the tank drain and let in enough fuel to cover about an inch of the bottom of the bucket. Let it sit at a slight angle for a minute or two and you could see any water bubbles start to gather in the low spot of the bucket. If there was water, we had to repeat it again until there was no water.

Does your barrel pump suck from the bottom of the barrel? You could shorten it and get some of that paste and a wooden dipstick to test for water occasionally. Just a thought.

MossRoad · Feb 23, 2012

Here's a link to something similar to what we used.

Water Finding Paste - Water Finding Paste made by Oil Equipment Mfg.

Just google

water finding paste

and you will get a bunch of products.

woodlandfarms · Feb 23, 2012

Cool Stuff Guys.

Ken. I noticed when I replaced my old pump with a new pump that the pipe looked moist, it had condensation but I didn't think that through. I guess this is why people say store you fuel tanks full.

On small airplanes, there is a little tool and part of preflight is to fill up a of fuel from each tank. Water checks....

Carl

rsewill · Feb 23, 2012

Yes, whether your tank holds 60 gallons or 6000 gallons you will get water. And just like in the large tank you need to draw your fuel a bit up from the low point and have a small petcock on the very lowest point to drain any water. It's all in the tilt of the tank Don't forget to first drain the water, then fuel up your machine.

cqaigy2 · Feb 23, 2012

One thing ive notice is now that i use plastic "cans" instead of metal, i have less water accumulating in the gas cans. Im thinking partly because the gas container is sealed and doesn't breath.

ponytug · Feb 26, 2012

Dear Carl,

I have used the Mr. Funnel when I had some fuel of unknown provenance, but I don't use it routinely. My diesel is never more than six weeks old, and the tractor is used regularly.

I have had water in fuel issues from commercial gas stations, once out in the Mojave, leading credibility to the condensation explanation. My two cents is that I try only to buy from a station that either serves big rigs, or does a lot of business.

All the best,

Peter

woodlandfarms · Feb 27, 2012

It condensation and the occassional drip of rain. I left the barrel empty since las August so a recipe for disaster. There was around a gallon or two of diesel in the bottom so I could not tell if it had water.

Last year was my first year for large gallon storage. Guess I learned.

ponytug · Feb 27, 2012

Dear Carl,

Given California's environmental and earthquake safety laws, I haven't gone to large volume storage, but almost all of the farmers I know that do store significant volumes have a point of dispensing filter, usually with a clear bottom to be able to see water in the fuel. Just a thought.

All the best,

Peter

euhippus · Jul 3, 2012

My JD650 tractor is not starting. The exhaust is emitting white smoke when turning over the ignition. Is this a sign of water in the fuel?

ponytug · Jul 3, 2012

White smoke at starting is probably uncombusted diesel fuel. White smoke while running tends to be coolant in the exhaust.

Since water is very damaging to diesel pumps/injectors, I wouldn't crank my engine to find out. I would look in the tank and verify it, or change the fuel filter (Check for water afterwards!), or both.

The primary issue with water is that the clearances are very tight in diesel pumps/injectors and it doesn't provide enough lubrication, which can cause severe wear.

All the best,

Peter

euhippus · Jul 7, 2012

Thank you ponytug. I got my JD650 running again for a few hours and then it seemed to starve itself of fuel and is once again in a non-starting mode. Any suggestions out there, as you can tell I am not a mechanical genius.

ponytug · Jul 7, 2012

Dear Euhippus,

I would have a look through the fuel system. Did you check the fuel filter when you removed for water or gunk? I would try putting a new one on, after cutting open the old one to see what was in it.

If it was running well, and then died with the same symptoms, I would suspect that not all of the water was removed from the fuel. On some JDs, there is a clear drain bowl that you can see the water.

All the best,

Peter

euhippus said:
Thank you ponytug. I got my JD650 running again for a few hours and then it seemed to starve itself of fuel and is once again in a non-starting mode. Any suggestions out there, as you can tell I am not a mechanical genius.