MIG vertical up trouble

[dstig1]

In my welding class we did a ton of out of position work, but it was all stick. I got to the point where I would call most of my vert up "acceptable" with stick. We did literally about 5 min of MIG in the last class, just for giggles. We didn't try anything out of position there as it seemed so easy. Flash forward to now. I have a really good welder - Miller XMT304 and 22A wire feeder. I can run flat position beads that look pretty decent overall. I can get good penetration and relatively smooth beads (depending on how steady I am...). I cannot, for the life of me make a vertical up bead work. Vertical down- no problem. But vert up has been a total mess. I get melted blobs that drip repeatedly every little bit as I go. See the mess? The one decent bead was vert down, just to see if I was crazy or not.



I tried everything from 18V/200 ipm to 24v/450ipm with 0.035 wire and C25 gas on 3/8" steel. I tried pushing uphill, dragging and everything in between. I used a straight-on torch angle and everything from a slight angle up to a severe angle up. I went fast, I went slow. I whipped, I zigged and even zagged. They ALL look the same. Drip drip drip

Here's a simple fillet weld done flat that was perfectly decent. All this was done tonight.


It's not the machine. Works perfect in position and vert down. It's not gas coverage - I'm running 15-20 cfh, and the garage is closed - no wind, no fan. It is clearly me, but I have tried everything I know with my limited experience and can't do a thing with it. It must be me, but I can't figure it out to save my life.

Any hints here?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[xryan]

MIG, 99.95% of the time ALWAYS mig DOWN. But, that's not really the point, PRACTICE. Just a quick look but to me it looks like your WAY too fast in travel speed.

Also your fillet weld in flat position, too fast travel speed, not steady.

PRACTICE

I wouldn't let that flat position weld out the door to a customer, PRACTICE

 

[dstig1]

I kind of wondered if vert up was just not done with MIG but had no training on that to go on.

Fast - slow it didn't matter. I tried every variation I could. If MIG just isn't really made to work vert up, then perhaps that explains it. Vert down it is! I just assumed it was like stick where you always went up for thicker stuff (>1/4" or so) to get good penetration.

More practice always helps, but I am satisfied with the flat fillet weld I showed. Nope, I'm not perfectly smooth and never will be. Not a pro, and I know I will never get to that level, but I'll keep plugging away.

Thanks for the info

 

[Shield Arc]

Vert down it is!

Whoa, whoa! I never run Mig down hill, unless it is 10-GA or less. Run Mig down hill on a structural job and you'll be kicking rocks to the parking lot while carrying your lunch box!!!!!!!!!!!!

First off, everybody is going to have a hard time running vertical up on a flat plate. Do your self a big favor. Practice on fillet or lap joints. Or at least two plates with a small gap! Not being there to watch you, but I find most people make the mistake of using too much gun / rod angle! Almost like they're trying to force the puddle up hill. What I do, is hold the gun straight in, (90-degrees to the plate) pull the trigger and hold there, (or a little side to side motion) until I get the size puddle / bead I want, then I pickup my shoulder and point the gun / rod down about 5-degrees. Let the molten metal lay on the shelf I just built. Some times I run a U motion, sometimes I run a upside down V for the first pass or two. For wider welds I just go side to side and pause on the ends to let the puddle fill, but move very fast across the middle. Otherwise you get a very crowned weld, which can give you wagon tracks! Nobody wants to deal with wagon tracks! At first you can count how long you hold on the ends, one thousand one, one thousand two, etc, etc. I suggest you don't do this! Learn to read the puddle, learn to read the puddle and know when it is time to move, or change gun / rod angle. Learning to read the puddle is the whole trick to welding!


Here is a good chart I found online. For vertical up try the lower settings for metal thickness and size of wire.

 

[Shield Arc]

Here are some diagrams I scanned from a Lincoln book, maybe they will help.

 

[xryan]

Very good, if your REALLY doing heavy structural stuff you should be using some dual shield flux cored wire. IE: stick on a spool! Hard wire vertical down I say, (1/4") plate. Most of all with any of welding, practice and be comfortable/steady, lean an elbow on something, sit if possible.

 

[ericher69]

Try this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNe4fo6hxAQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Todd727]

This vertical mig welding technique will penetrate...

That's his title, not mine.

 

[ericher69]

In my welding class we did a ton of out of position work, but it was all stick. I got to the point where I would call most of my vert up "acceptable" with stick. We did literally about 5 min of MIG in the last class, just for giggles. We didn't try anything out of position there as it seemed so easy. Flash forward to now. I have a really good welder - Miller XMT304 and 22A wire feeder. I can run flat position beads that look pretty decent overall. I can get good penetration and relatively smooth beads (depending on how steady I am...). I cannot, for the life of me make a vertical up bead work. Vertical down- no problem. But vert up has been a total mess. I get melted blobs that drip repeatedly every little bit as I go. See the mess? The one decent bead was vert down, just to see if I was crazy or not.

<img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=269442"/>

I tried everything from 18V/200 ipm to 24v/450ipm with 0.035 wire and C25 gas on 3/8" steel. I tried pushing uphill, dragging and everything in between. I used a straight-on torch angle and everything from a slight angle up to a severe angle up. I went fast, I went slow. I whipped, I zigged and even zagged. They ALL look the same. Drip drip drip

Here's a simple fillet weld done flat that was perfectly decent. All this was done tonight.
<img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=269443"/>

It's not the machine. Works perfect in position and vert down. It's not gas coverage - I'm running 15-20 cfh, and the garage is closed - no wind, no fan. It is clearly me, but I have tried everything I know with my limited experience and can't do a thing with it. It must be me, but I can't figure it out to save my life.

Any hints here?

Thanks,
Dave

Did you try any of the recommendations? If so how did the weld turn out

 

[crazyal]

What they said. When learning with mig try doing short welds at first. 1" inch at most. If things start to go south while learning you try to compensate when just stopping is a much better option. It also allows you to reset things like welding angle that you might not have realized you changed because you were too focused on the weld. Practice makes perfect.

 

[dstig1]

Haven't had a chance to try it, and it will be a few days yet until I do... I appreciate the tips.

 

[burnieman]

Keep your puddle. Move back and forth but keep that puddle. It's like anything. Keep practicing. You'll look back at that piece of scrap you started on and laugh. As we are now. Not really. But it will come to you

 

[weldermike]

This was only a quick run that I made while trying out a new machine, but my pattern was gun slight angle up, and quick tight ovals. Give it a try, it may work good for you. Hope it helps you bud!

 

[Shield Arc]

In all the years I've been welding, I have never been satisfied with my vertical up welding!

 

[tungularafishcamp]

In all the years I've been welding, I have never been satisfied with my vertical up welding!

LOL I would be happy with those welds even on the flat:laughing:

 

[OkieDave]

Whoa, whoa! I never run Mig down hill, unless it is 10-GA or less. Run Mig down hill on a structural job and you'll be kicking rocks to the parking lot while carrying your lunch box!!!!!!!!!!!!

SA, I'm not doubting you, but everything I've heard elsewhere says otherwise. Matter of fact, I'm in a class right now, and we discussed this (including a video) just yesterday, and everything was vertical down. You clearly have experience I'll never even dream of, so I have to ask: why the difference? What am I missing here?

 

[Shield Arc]

The main reason is penetration. I'd say 90 to 95% of the things I've welded I had to follow a WPS, (Weld Procedure Specification) or a Prequalified Welding Procedure. The majority of them were AWS D1.1 code. When I worked in a tank shop everything was ASME boiler and pressure vessel code. I have yet to see one that doesn't have a line item of: "Welding Progression". I have yet to see one that would allow you to weld down hill on anything thicker than 10-GA. But this is my limited experience.
One time in the early 1980s I was in a welding crew that we sheeted a 80' x 80' building 70' tall out of 4' x 8' x 10-GA sheets. All welding was done with Mig .030 wire. All joints were gapped 1/16", all vertical welds were made up hill.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

SA, I'm not doubting you, but everything I've heard elsewhere says otherwise. Matter of fact, I'm in a class right now, and we discussed this (including a video) just yesterday, and everything was vertical down. You clearly have experience I'll never even dream of, so I have to ask: why the difference? What am I missing here?

If they are teaching you to do vertical down, they are prepping you to go weld and zip together a bunch of cheap built tag-a-long trailers somewhere. Otherwise it is vert up for anything over 1/8"-3/16"...and at that full penetration is doubtful on 3/16".

SA is 100% correct. With his "limited" experience, he sure hits it right on the head.

 

[rcowan]

Our instructor made us do vert up just for practice. He said anyone can weld vert down.

RC

 

[dstig1]

OK, Time to revive this. I haven't had a lot of time to practice welding the past couple months, but today I had a free day and nothing to do, and it occurred to me I needed to get back to this. So I looked over this thread and tried a few things. Executive summary: There must be some catch to this that I am not getting.

I grabbed a couple scrap cutoffs of 3/8" angle to use as practice. I figured I would weld in the corner like a fillet. I tried all manner of the suggestions on this thread. There was only one time I said to myself that it didn't look like total ****. The root problem is the same as earlier - the weld pool metal drips. Here is a small 3/8" fillet coupon I did for some comparison after some other practice. I did 3 different welds on this to compare - flat position, Vertical down, and vertical up. Pictures don't seem to be as good as looking at it live, but the flat and V Down looked pretty similar. The V up was one of the best ones I did, and I would still say it looks like crap.



You can see the conditions on the coupon - about 420 ipm, 150A or so (I don't think to look at the display much), and 23v with 035 wire. These figures are right off the Miller "calculator" I have.


Here is a better example of the crap I was still getting:


Note the section of Vert up at the top (drip, drip, drip) and the Vert down at the bottom (smooth but not well tied-in, in this case, especially on the left)

I tried a few things here in Vert up. Gun angle - I kept it perpendicular (0 deg) and about 15-20 pointed up. I had slightly better success with 0, but not much. I did some major work on wire feed at the same voltage. The charts recommend 23-24v, 420-520 ipm for 035 wire on 75/25 gas. I tried that, and then dialed the wire down to 250-300 ipm also. I got better looking welds at the low speeds, but it did not sound like normal MIG welding. I'd be concerned it was cold, but I can't be sure.

I'm sure my technique is the fault, but I have no idea what to change after all this. I have tried everything that has been suggested and everything I can think of from what I know. Nothing looks good enough to pass in my vertical ups at this point. Open for suggestions, but not sure how much help I can get without it being in-person at this stage...