Saving electricity

[uglyboywith11fingers]

3930dave said:
Newer appliances.... hmmmm.... not always so straight forward, (total) cost wise.
A few years ago, we here in Ontario were encouraged to get rid of our old, power-hungry appliances... a couple of young fellas in a big truck came and for no charge, picked up my old beer fridge, and my wife's upright freezer. Both of these units dated from the 1940's or 1950's, rounded top, etc., we were told these were real energy hogs.
Anyway, wife soon decided she couldn't do without a sizable freezer, and who can do without a beer fridge, so we picked up new units.
Well, it didn't take long to notice that these new energy efficient appliances use more power than did the 60plus year-old machines. Now both these units are in the basement cold room, where the temp is about 50F in the winter and maybe 60F in the summer... shouldn't use much power, but the difference showed up on the power bill.
And I'm sure these new units won't be lasting anything close to 60 years.

I do have a timer on my electric water heater... that prob. saves $5 or so each month.

Pete

 

[3930dave]

I hear you Pete - you raise a great point.

While we'd all like to believe the propaganda around "New, Improved", um, well, the reality is often quite different - specifically what I'm referring to is the direct, immediate operating costs. Caveat Emptor is more applicable now, than ever.

And believe me, I'm a hard-core tech guy, who really wants to see new (truly) improved technology out there in the market.

A friend recently went through a similar problem with an On Demand water heater - at the end of a year, it was WAY more expensive to run than the conventional heater it replaced. This On Demand unit was installed by a guy who is seriously over qualified, so there were/are no installation issues.

Lifespan of products, well, I think we all know the story there - governments want to see the economy turning over faster, so if new white appliances last only 5-8 years instead of the 50+ they used to, well, so much the better.

GRS - couldn't agree more. The "penalty" these companies and utilities get for Inefficiency and chronic Mess-management is to be awarded immediate revenue rate increases. For that reason alone, I'm willing to pay to decouple from this lunacy.

Rgds, D.

 

[Looking4new]

Ever since Ontario Hydro/Hydro One or whatever you want to call that bunch of mismanaged misfits foisted the stupid smart meter on me I have watched what I use.

I heat with wood and use the oil furnace for when I leave for the day, which in winter isn't for very long or very often. My vehicle only gets the block heater plugged in when the temps will be down below 0F. The water heater is turned on at 7 P.M. on Friday evenings and shut off at 7 P.M. on Sunday evening. Do all the washing on the weekends or on statutory holidays. My dishwasher walks around on two legs and ******* because I don't have a newfangled electric one. I have always had a solar powered clothes dryer and prefer it that way. I buy my L.E.D. strips at Home Depot for under counter light and I will soon be having them all over the house. Most of the lights right now are compact flourescent bulbs except for the 4 yard lights.
Summer time I air condition with the blower fan on the furnace. The basement is like a huge walk in freezer all the time. My house is normally about 10 degrees cooler than it is outside in summer. The only time the basement is warm is in the winter. One woodstove down and one up. I burn 16 face cords/5 and a third bush cords of maple, beech and oak mixed every year. Every three years I refill the oil tank. (About 500 L a fill up). My hydro bill last month was 114$.

 

[KTurner]

We are pretty careful already here, about 10 kwh/day here, outside of AC season.

Sounds like you're doing good. Our "best" month since moving in about three years ago was 900kwh or 32kwh/day. That was in November, so AC was off and we used the woodstove for any needed heat. The bad thing about that was that our previous "best" month was the previous November with 977kwh. Why is that bad? Because the 977kwh cost us $96.89 and the 900kwh cost us $103.45. One year later and bout 7% higher cost for about 8% less power.

Replacing our 25 year old heat pump cut our summer bills by 500 - 1000 kwh per month. Funny thing about that was the still shiny "High Efficiency" emblem on the 25 year old, probably 7-8 SEER, heat pump we pulled out. Just goes to show that high efficiency today could be the worst power hog in your house tomorrow.

Keith

 

[Baby Grand]

3930dave said:
Newer appliances.... hmmmm.... not always so straight forward, (total) cost wise.
A few years ago, we here in Ontario were encouraged to get rid of our old, power-hungry appliances... a couple of young fellas in a big truck came and for no charge, picked up my old beer fridge, and my wife's upright freezer. Both of these units dated from the 1940's or 1950's, rounded top, etc., we were told these were real energy hogs.
Anyway, wife soon decided she couldn't do without a sizable freezer, and who can do without a beer fridge, so we picked up new units.
Well, it didn't take long to notice that these new energy efficient appliances use more power than did the 60plus year-old machines. Now both these units are in the basement cold room, where the temp is about 50F in the winter and maybe 60F in the summer... shouldn't use much power, but the difference showed up on the power bill.
And I'm sure these new units won't be lasting anything close to 60 years.

I do have a timer on my electric water heater... that prob. saves $5 or so each month.

Pete

Running a refrig unit in a cool/cold environment kills it's efficiency. They need a significantly higher ambient temperature to exchange heat efficiently. May sound strange, but then that's thermodynamics for you.

 

[uglyboywith11fingers]

Running a refrig unit in a cool/cold environment kills it's efficiency. They need a significantly higher ambient temperature to exchange heat efficiently. May sound strange, but then that's thermodynamics for you.

I may not have been clear... the old appliances also lived in that cold room, so if what you're saying is true, it didn't seem to bother the old fridge & freezer. Maybe thermodynamic designs were better 60 years ago.:laughing:

At the risk of further de-railing this thread, I have a question about electric power production planning... We read in the media that several times a year when Ontario has a surplus of power, we have to pay big bucks ($millions$) to Quebec or Ohio or where-ever to take our surplus power off our hands, lest we damage components of our grid. I'm assuming that Quebec or Ohio would have had sufficient power for their needs without taking our surplus, so, what do they do to turn down their own supply so they can take ours and our $millions$ as well ??? And why can't the Ontario Power authority do the same thing here and save us a few bucks ? Isn't that why we pay these bozos the $million salaries ?, so they can figure out how to save us some money ?
End of Rant !

Pete

 

[kiotiken]

I may not have been clear... the old appliances also lived in that cold room, so if what you're saying is true, it didn't seem to bother the old fridge & freezer. Maybe thermodynamic designs were better 60 years ago.:laughing:

At the risk of further de-railing this thread, I have a question about electric power production planning... We read in the media that several times a year when Ontario has a surplus of power, we have to pay big bucks ($) to Quebec or Ohio or where-ever to take our surplus power off our hands, lest we damage components of our grid. I'm assuming that Quebec or Ohio would have had sufficient power for their needs without taking our surplus, so, what do they do to turn down their own supply so they can take ours and our $ as well ??? And why can't the Ontario Power authority do the same thing here and save us a few bucks ? Isn't that why we pay these bozos the salaries ?, so they can figure out how to save us some money ?
End of Rant !

Pete

Hydro electric generation can be turned on and off and throttled up and down very quickly. That is the bulk of generation in Quebec, so I could see that being possible. Ontario is heavy in nukes, and those have a long cycle to power up and down and can't be switched off.

My question is why can't the power just be grounded? I'd rather it be used by somebody who can use it, but if they don't want it for free, I'd rather my rate drop to 0 (not a problem with a smart meter) and the rest dumped into a mountain somewhere. This could be a huge competitive advantage for industry, tell them the power is free for the next 4 hours and watch production soar and costs plummet.

 

[uglyboywith11fingers]

Hydro electric generation can be turned on and off and throttled up and down very quickly. That is the bulk of generation in Quebec, so I could see that being possible. Ontario is heavy in nukes, and those have a long cycle to power up and down and can't be switched off.

Okay... but isn't the nuke just heating water and the steam used to run the turbine ??? So just open a valve & vent the steam if you don't need the power.
Just a few miles (sorry, kms) down the road from me at Hwy401 & Trafalgar Road is a natural gas generation facility put up by TransCanada. It is supposedly just a 'backup' facility, for when demand is high. Well, you can see the vapors from the stacks pretty much every day, so I suppose they're burning gas to keep the water boiling, and venting the steam until they need to run the generators ?
Why not do it with nukes ? Maybe it's not as simple as that.

Pete

 

[wjmst]

I'll add my 2 cents to what has been said.

1. I calculated the cost to run my hot water tank and it comes out to a little more than $1 per day. To me that isn't worth messing around with a timer to save maybe 25 cents a day and risk having cold water.

2. I have a programmable thermostat for the oil furnace. I have found that it actually costs MORE if I program it to reduce the temperature when we leave the house at 7AM and then kick back up at 4PM. So the furnace stays set at a constant temperature.

3. Insulation does help but only if installed properly. If it isn't installed properly you are just wasting money.

4. Replacing OLD (read ancient) appliances does help.

5. Replacing incandescent light bulbs with CFL's helps mainly for those night/security lights that are on for extended hours at night.

6. Unplugging those phantom loads helps as well.

7. The best advice is to just be conservative. Turn stuff off if it isn't being used.

 

[uglyboywith11fingers]

I'll add my 2 cents to what has been said.

2. I have a programmable thermostat for the oil furnace. I have found that it actually costs MORE if I program it to reduce the temperature when we leave the house at 7AM and then kick back up at 4PM. So the furnace stays set at a constant temperature.
.

Wes, I could argue a few of your points, but I'm with you on # 2.

Our house has plaster walls, the plaster is close to 1 inch thick. Consider all that mass, and furniture, etc. in the house, to warm up.
When I tried a set-back thermostat, it would take over an hour of the furnace running non-stop to bring the house temp up just a few degrees.
Seemed to take away all the savings of reducing the temp.
If we go away for a weekend, I'll set it back manually, but for day-to-day, for me it ain't worth it.

Pete

 

[kiotiken]

Okay... but isn't the nuke just heating water and the steam used to run the turbine ??? So just open a valve & vent the steam if you don't need the power.
Just a few miles (sorry, kms) down the road from me at Hwy401 & Trafalgar Road is a natural gas generation facility put up by TransCanada. It is supposedly just a 'backup' facility, for when demand is high. Well, you can see the vapors from the stacks pretty much every day, so I suppose they're burning gas to keep the water boiling, and venting the steam until they need to run the generators ?
Why not do it with nukes ? Maybe it's not as simple as that.

Pete

I can't say that I know enough to say why it couldn't be done either, but that sounds good to me. I think for the millions we spend "giving" power away, we could come up with something to be able to more easily switch the generators on and off more easily.

We should find an old reservoir up on a hill somewhere and use the extra power to pump water up to it when we have too much. When we need more, let it out and use it for generation. There has to be something better we can do than pay millions to give it away.

 

[kiotiken]

Wes, I could argue a few of your points, but I'm with you on # 2.

Our house has plaster walls, the plaster is close to 1 inch thick. Consider all that mass, and furniture, etc. in the house, to warm up.
When I tried a set-back thermostat, it would take over an hour of the furnace running non-stop to bring the house temp up just a few degrees.
Seemed to take away all the savings of reducing the temp.
If we go away for a weekend, I'll set it back manually, but for day-to-day, for me it ain't worth it.

Pete

I'd argue that with new building techniques that provide a well insulated, completely sealed envelop around the building, your results would be different.

 

[NorTracNY]

Wow 32 posts and I didn't see anyone mention putting up a close line!

If you're using a significant amount of electricity each month be sure to know how to account for it. Kill-a-Watt was mentioned. I know I don't want to be paying for something that I don't even know why I'm using it. If you go and use the meter on just your few major appliances and can only account for 50% of your electricity, you need to do some serious investigating. Maybe your neighbor has an extention cord you hadn't noticed.

 

[aczlan]

I'd argue that with new building techniques that provide a well insulated, completely sealed envelop around the building, your results would be different.

True, but that would cost more to build than would be saved in energy costs...

Aaron Z

 

[KTurner]

Wow 32 posts and I didn't see anyone mention putting up a close line!

Actually, I mentioned that in post #5. Last line in a long post though, so easy to miss...

Keith

 

[RobertBrown]

Wow 32 posts and I didn't see anyone mention putting up a close line!

Post #23 I was looking for the same thing. It's a glaringly obvious way to save power.....

I have always had a solar powered clothes dryer and prefer it that way.

It is surprising that more people don't use these. That saves a bundle right there. Doesn't really take much longer where I live, especially this time of year.

 

[3930dave]

10 kwh/day is a ballpark. A bad month (heavy AC or heavy block heater use, not normal) will push 15 kwh/day. Normal is 10-12 kwh/day. (All #s averaged over a month).

For the folks that pay attention (like us), you pretty quickly realize how we are being "gamed". For someone with a $200-$300+/month, getting dinged for another $5-$10/month is just noise. A friend tells of often thinking his family has been abducted, and replaced by TVs - he often comes home to find 4+ TVs running, and nobody there.

Good examples in this thread about people conserving extensively/consistently, and still get bills for $100+/month - gotta pay for those Ontario Hydro jets somehow, eh ! As the consumer bills continue to drift towards 90%+ in "gaming" fees, and < 10% for real consumption, more of us will be taking a closer look at this.

This is getting bad enough that if you can shed your heavy electrical loads, it may be getting close to the point where you can set up a 12v generator (gas/diesel/propane engine + 12v alternator) and run your light loads (inverters are very low cost now, compared to even 10 years ago) cheaper than being on the grid.

I think I want to be a major corporation - don't pay taxes, and get free power - sounds like a good deal to me !

Seriously though, just being off Time of Use (as most business accounts are here) would be a big benefit. Try fighting your bill when the utility computer decides that most of your use has been during Peak Time - good luck with that.

Unfortunately, this is another good example of us peasants having to pay ALL the freight. At the risk of overstating the obvious, when I use the phrase "gamed" above, we all know I mean something more explicit.

(Good point about outdoor clotheslines, been doing that 20+ years here).

Rgds, D.

 

[Highbeam]

There are lots of fads aroudn being green. The biggest and dumbest is this supposed phantom load from wall warts. It's just not significant. I measured all of my wall warts combined on a power strip and every one I could find was less than three watts combined. Give me a break, it is not worth screwing around with wall warts.

I also measured my deep freeze freezer which sets out in a non-heated room off the garage. It was using less than 2 kwh a day or 20 cents. Ooooh, big deal, 6$ a month.

I happen to know a little bit about thermodynamics and I disagree with the above theory that a warmer ambient temp makes a more efficient freezer. That's just totally silly. For one thing, the freezer will gain more heat from the room with higher ambient temps so the load is greater. Secondly, the heat sink (room air) being warmer means that there is a smaller differential between the coils and the heat sink so a less efficient transfer of heat from the freezer to the room which is how a freezer cools the icebox. It is true that some freezers have design parameters that make them not function at very very low temperatures, think below freezing, but a cooler room makes a more efficient freezer.

My big energy hogs are water heat, clothes dryer, and the hot tub on my patio. Not much you can do about them except more efficient use of hot water with better devices, HE clothes washer to predry the clothes as well as possible, and not using the tub.

 

[kiotiken]

There are lots of fads aroudn being green. The biggest and dumbest is this supposed phantom load from wall warts. It's just not significant. I measured all of my wall warts combined on a power strip and every one I could find was less than three watts combined. Give me a break, it is not worth screwing around with wall warts.

Well, I bet you I could find AT LEAST ten of them plugged in around my house. If your 3 watts is right, that's 30 watts per hour (.03 kwh) X 24hrs a day = .75 kwh / day. You might still say who cares, but if you're trying to get down to 10 kwh / day like some here say they are, that's 7.5% of your daily usage, for nothing.

Phantom loads also refer to everything else like the T.V sitting on standby, the microwave, clock radios, coffee maker, anything that has a remote control etc that all have a small phantom load, but together, they can start to register.

I also measured my deep freeze freezer which sets out in a non-heated room off the garage. It was using less than 2 kwh a day or 20 cents. Ooooh, big deal, 6$ a month.

Again, it may be on a percentage of daily use.

I happen to know a little bit about thermodynamics and I disagree with the above theory that a warmer ambient temp makes a more efficient freezer. That's just totally silly. For one thing, the freezer will gain more heat from the room with higher ambient temps so the load is greater. Secondly, the heat sink (room air) being warmer means that there is a smaller differential between the coils and the heat sink so a less efficient transfer of heat from the freezer to the room which is how a freezer cools the icebox. It is true that some freezers have design parameters that make them not function at very very low temperatures, think below freezing, but a cooler room makes a more efficient freezer.

I've been waiting for somebody to correct this, I didn't feel like getting into it.

 

[Bird]

I happen to know a little bit about thermodynamics and I disagree with the above theory that a warmer ambient temp makes a more efficient freezer. That's just totally silly.

Maybe not so silly in reality. Maybe it's a matter of terminology. I won't say more or less "efficient" but I have a 2-door refrigerator (freezer on top) in my shop/recreation room and the manual shows in bold print:

CAUTION Do not install the refrigerator where the temperature will drop below 55 degrees F (13 C) or rise above 110F. At these temperature extremes the compressor will not be able to maintain the proper temperatures inside the refrigerator.

A few years ago, I forgot, or had overlooked, that part of the manual, and even called a service man because I could not get the freezer temperature much below 32F. The freezer in the house is set for 0 degrees F. But the ambient temperature in the shop was a little below 50F and that was the problem. So whether you want to use the word "efficient" or not, this one doesn't work too well below 50F and works great at 60-85F. I guess it might not be more efficient if you're talking about the amount of electricity used, but warmer ambient temperture is sure more efficient at getting the temperture down in the freezer.:laughing: