Need advice on whole-house generators

[SPYDERLK]

You have to maintain constant pto speeds to run the generator,close to 540 to maintain 120 volts.[[Load has little bearing on fuel use with this combo.]]
Like I said ,I am happy with mine,when you need it you need it,it doesn't matter about a little fuel.
I purchased mine not only for my house but to run my incubators and hatchers if we lose power during that season.I would loose my business if I lost power during this time.
I hatch and raised ringneck pheasant.

Hi idle and hi rpm loaded consume much different fuel rate.
larry

 

[RoyJackson]

I would strongly recommend a diesel genset. First of all you get the best fuel consumption/cost with a diesel, especially if you buy off-road diesel or heating oil. Second diesel engines, at least good ones (not chinese junk) are among the most reliable engines, you can store the fuel for years without degradation, if you control moisture.

I have a kubota powered 10KW unit and I can far outlast my neighbors with their propane. As far as the cold weather, in N.E. PA the fuel has never had a problem in the cold weather, nor with starting. My genset is in a shed along with the fuel, so once it is running, the fuel is warmed by the engine.

I would recommend an 1800 RPM unit for long life and quiet operation. My previous was a 3600 RPM and the 1800 is so much nicer. I have a manual start and transfer, by choice, since I don't want it running when no one is home. I can start it from the house, so it is convenient even for the wife.

What brand is that, and where'd you buy it?

 

[sriddle1ny]

EMERGENCY POWER - SIMPLE BUT MET MY NEEDS: I had an Emergen Transfer Switch (see attached) integrated with my panel when I built my home. It took some planning but I had the (6) cut-over switches assigned to dedicated circuits supplying power to: Slantfin LP Boiler igniter and Taco circulation pumps (3 zone radiant heat); Majestic Fireplace insert blower motor; LP forced air furnace igniter and blower, refrigerator; LP Water heater igniter and power blower; family room and lastly, power to general area (for lighting) where I placed my Generac 7,500 watt portable generator. This set-up is inexpensive and overall reliability is based on the portable generator that provides power to the transfer switch, you'll have to make sure the electrician creates those dedicated circuits in your panel when wiring the house. My generator is gas powered however I've read several brands offer an LP adaptor kit if that's your fuel of choice. I've used it several times here in MN when the temps were -19 and all worked well, when I built my home I ran an underground cable from an implement barn some 100 feet away from the house location because of noise and fresh air/carbon monoxide concerns.

 

[techwrtr2]

If you all don't mind, I'm going to toss a penny into the mix (not sure it's worth more than that).

I also am considering a standby generator. I will not consider a PTO type unit for the simple reason that I don't reside the house where I'd place it, my parents do. Neither of them would be capable of mounting a PTO generator to the tractor and then connecting it to the house. Same with the little 5k generator they have now, while it's capable of powering the furnace and probably a few other things in winter, they would not be able to make the connections.

So,when you plot out what you will install consider how long you will be in that house and whether you will be able to utilize said PTO generator down the road. You may not.

Carry on.

 

[scott_vt]

There have been LOTS of threads on the +'s and -'s of PTO sets.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/222798-tractor-power-take-off-generator.html
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/222861-power-take-off-generator-one.html
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/215098-generator-options.html

There are four basic petroleum types for generators - Natural gas, LPG, diesel, gasoline, all readily available.

Upon review (in my memory) of what I've read here the general consensus was that a natural gas/lpg was more cost effective solution, cleaner, easier for a standby emergency generator in the 10 to 20K range.

BUT T - you need the infrastructure for nat gas/lpg.

Currently nat gas is CHEAP lpg is dear.

Nat gas is at a 10 year low:
The Associated Press: Natural gas prices stay at 10-year low

Propane follows crude oil:

Factors Affecting Propane Prices - Energy Explained, Your Guide To Understanding Energy

The infrastructure for nat gas is simple, if it already runs by your site. LNG seems rare. The infrastructure for LPG is ubiquitous, you can buy a bottle anywhere, even in a dry county.

Diesel and gasoline are dear, but almost everybody that is rural probably has at least 5 gallons sitting in their car or truck, or tractor.

So I had planned on a natural gas standby generator. But I bought a house nowhere near a natural gas line.

With the price of the remaining fuels being about the same a PTO gen set seems a clear winner for me. I'm probably going to have two tractors (seats) anyways and only have one seat (mine) to fill them. I've my infrastructure for significant diesel storage

And I anticipate requiring power at separate sites, my workshops are about 80 yards from the house and on a separate pole/meter.

So now I've another item to add to my Craigslist shopping cart.

Good Mornin Newbury,
Agreed on LNG being the cheapest, only problem very few rural locations have it running by their residence.

As for LPG, my last delivery was $2.17 / gal yesterday. Current price of #2 fuel or off road diesel is presently $3.50 to $3.75 / gal.....

That being said, a good diesel gen set is also an excellent choice, I wont debate that, its really what works for the user ! I just allways felt that you should try and get as many uses out of one fuel type as possible JMO !

 

[Pilot]

A couple questions:

How do maintenance costs of diesel compare to NG and propane. Years (decades, really) ago there was a push to convert cars to NG and one of the arguments was that it burned cleaner and engines would last longer.

Diesel pickups, as I understand it, require more frequent oil changes and some use very expensive filters.

So what's the maintenance situation for diesel? How often do you change the oil, what do filters cost?

 

[Hilltop Hillbilly]

A couple questions:

So what's the maintenance situation for diesel? How often do you change the oil, what do filters cost?

Along those same lines, be aware that there are both air-cooled and liquid-cooled propane generators.

The air-cooled units are about 1/2 the price of the liquid-cooled units, but only have about 1/10th the lifetime. According to many generator salesmen I've talked to, air-cooled units often only run around 300 hours before major work is needed. (almost as much a new unit costs)

So do take into consideration how often the power goes out, and if you need a unit that will give you more hours to meet the years of use you expect.

Example 1: Power goes out for 8 hours a year, 300hours generator life = 37.5 years of service. Not a bad investment for $5000.

Example 2: Power goes out for 30 hours a year, 300hours generator life = 10 years of service. Not as good an investment for $5000. Maybe the $10000 liquid-cooled generator would be a better choice.

Example 3: Power goes out for 50 hours a year, 300hours generator life = 6 years of service. Not a good investment for $5000. I'd definitely buy the $10000 liquid-cooled generator.


HH

 

[sfloggie]

We too live in a rural area with no electricity at all, but we have only a barn on the land. Yet we may add more in the future.
The utility company would provide the electricity underground for 2100 feet and then pole with transformer. They wanted us to deed them an easement, so we said no thank you.

We are having a Siemens (Generac) 14Kw Guardian series installed next week plus the panel, transfer switch, switches, wiring, lights and LP tanks.

This will be our primary source of power.

 

[newbury]

Good Mornin Newbury,
Agreed on LNG being the cheapest, only problem very few rural locations have it running by their residence.

As for LPG, my last delivery was $2.17 / gal yesterday. Current price of #2 fuel or off road diesel is presently $3.50 to $3.75 / gal.....

That being said, a good diesel gen set is also an excellent choice, I wont debate that, its really what works for the user ! I just allways felt that you should try and get as many uses out of one fuel type as possible JMO !

I was discussing PTO primarily. Which for me is diesel. IF one has LPG set up already and doesn't have to buy a tank etc., it's an excellent way to go for a stationary generator.

There are kits to adapt normal gasoline generators to natural and LPG. I'm looking into getting one for my present medium sized generator.
/edit - lpg prices in my Ms area are $2.90/gal

One of my "mantras" focuses on stool. You need at least three legs for a good stool.

I like to be able to have 3 things for backup. I never can know when things I can't expect to fail will fail. Who ever expected the east coast to have such a warm winter? I got chains for my tractor and put up a cord of wood!! Totally useless!!

I probably should buy up some a/c units to ensure a cool summer!

 

[brin]

We too live in a rural area with no electricity at all, but we have only a barn on the land. Yet we may add more in the future.
The utility company would provide the electricity underground for 2100 feet and then pole with transformer. They wanted us to deed them an easement, so we said no thank you.

We are having a Siemens (Generac) 14Kw Guardian series installed next week plus the panel, transfer switch, switches, wiring, lights and LP tanks.

This will be our primary source of power.

I am surprised you did not grant them an easement...that is common, in fact it is hard to buy a piece of property or acreage anywhere near civilization where utility companies do not already have easements... If you change your mind take comfort in knowing they will not trespass or harm your land..they just need an easement to be able to control the growth of brush around their pole and be able to access it without your permission in case repairs are needed.

 

[Hilltop Hillbilly]

I am surprised you did not grant them an easement...that is common

I was thinking the same thing. I didn't think twice about sigining them an easement for my property. After all, they can provide me power at pennies on the dollar for what it would cost me to generate it myself.

Although now that I've gone over 400 hours without power in the last 2 years, maybe I should have demanded better service for handing over the piece of paper. ;-)


HH

 

[brin]

I was thinking the same thing. I didn't think twice about sigining them an easement for my property. After all, they can provide me power at pennies on the dollar for what it would cost me to generate it myself.

Although now that I've gone over 400 hours without power in the last 2 years, maybe I should have demanded better service for handing over the piece of paper. ;-)


HH

Yep - I know what you mean about going without power...We have an electric membership corp. and we have been without power on several occasions for more than a few days....

 

[sfloggie]

Other than easement adverse, I did not see an advantage.

The utility was great to work with in the initial design when I was going to agree to an easement. However; I maintain the area they were going through, I needed to clear one area of trees and I had to rake the entire area for 2100 ft plus remove stumps (All for trenching).

Then they noted that the easement was to allow them access, but I had to pay for all repairs.

I do not live on the land so I spoke to neighbors who told me the electricity goes out often.

I then show (in my view) that the back up generator was best.

I do appreciate your comments as they made me think over my plan. For me this is best. I will let you know how we do in a few months. I will show pictures of the area and the generator after all are operational.

Enjoy every comment and thank you Chevy for starting the thread.

 

[s219]

So I have looked at a lot of options since I started the thread, and though I'd report back.

I have seen several Kubota liquid-cooled diesel generators that I like, and it would be convenient to share a storage tank with my tractor and have off road diesel delivered periodically. Downsides to the diesel generator are primarily the exhaust odor/pollution, and it would be best to locate the unit some distance away from the house. They also get expensive as the wattage goes up.

The air cooled propane units are a good low-cost option, but as Hillbilly covered a few posts back, they are meant for limited standby use only. For about 3X more, a liquid cooled propane model would allow full backup capability. In both cases, I'll need to put in an LP tank (size?) and get propane delivered infrequently. With propane, the generator can go next to the house.

I've seen manual and automatic transfer switches, and automatic arrangements for supporting a fixed number of circuits, sharing/balancing load to support a variable number of circuits, and then the whole house deal. For whole house operation, a much bigger unit is needed, driving me to liquid cooled propane and higher cost.

That's what I know and what I have narrowed down to. Not sure which way to go yet, but am leaning towards a 17-20kW air cooled propane unit as a decent middle ground. If price was no object, I'd go liquid cooled, but we have a fixed budget to work with on the new house, and I'd like to have enough money left over to buy a little fishing boat. I sure like the sound of an air cooled generator plus a boat better than just a liquid cooled generator. Can't catch a lot of fish with just a generator.

Thanks to everyone who has commented, and keep it coming -- I have been learning a lot.

If anyone has suggestions for what size propane tank is appropriate for about 5-10 days of part time use for 17-20kW, please let me know! I am still wondering about going with propane for heat and hot water to make the LP tank requirement more reasonable, but honestly, between super tight insulation and backup wood heat, this new house really won't need a furnace for our climate. So we'll probably end up with a smaller LP tank just for the generator.

 

[sfloggie]

Ops...thank you S219 for starting this thread and your analysis. Now you need to start a thread for the boat! Jim

 

[Pilot]

I don't know where Hillbilly got his prices. Costco has a portable 7,000KW (8750 KW surge) unit for about $700 (yeah, it's Chinese made). Comes with remote start, so when a storm is coming, hook it up and when the power fails, push the start button. Add maybe $500 for transfer switch, which will last a very long time.

Costso also has about a Honeywell automatic 12KW propane standby unit for about $2,500, including the transfer switch.

Those are in-store prices. Online units and prices are different, but for $500 less than Hillbilly's $5,000 they have a Honeywell 20KW automatic standby unit that should pretty much power most houses.

 

[s219]

I don't know where Hillbilly got his prices. Costco has a portable 7,000KW (8750 KW surge) unit for about $700 (yeah, it's Chinese made). Comes with remote start, so when a storm is coming, hook it up and when the power fails, push the start button. Add maybe $500 for transfer switch, which will last a very long time.

Costso also has about a Honeywell automatic 12KW propane standby unit for about $2,500, including the transfer switch.

Those are in-store prices. Online units and prices are different, but for $500 less than Hillbilly's $5,000 they have a Honeywell 20KW automatic standby unit that should pretty much power most houses.

I think his prices are about right. One of the Generac standby (ie, air cooled) units I have been looking at is right around $5K for a 20kW model. Generally, 17-20K standby units are pricing in the range of $3700-5000 depending on the features and construction. The better ones have an aluminum enclosure and nicer transfer setups, so there is easily +/- $500 to $1000 depending on the features.

The liquid cooled units are in the $8500-11000 range, but also tend to start at 22-27kW. Haven't seen very many lower wattage systems in that type of generator, at least for LP. There are for diesel.

 

[rtimgray]

When we built our house several years ago, I was going to plan for a whole-house generator. Then I thought a little more and realized that would probably be a good deal of money that never saw a lot of use (in my situation).

We purchased a 6500 watt portable gas generator (B&S engine) for construction of the house. Over the last ten years, we have had two multi-day outages - 1 for three days due to a wind storm and one for 18 days due to an ice storm. I learned that during the ice storm, the little generator was plenty for our normal needs, with the following caveats:

1. We have county water, so no need for a well pump; if we had a well pump, we would definately need a larger generator. For the days when the water was out, be just took buckets to the pond and used them to fill up the toilets!

2. We have a propane fireplace and stove, so we had heat and cooking sources.

3. We have an electric water heater, and the little generator couldn't run that. However, I had a 3 gallon 110V water heater that I plugged into the pipes and we could take about a 3 to 5 minute shower (and when it got cold - it got cold all at once!)

Aside from that, we would run it a few hours in the evening for lights and tv, other than that we got by fine on candles and lanterns. I've decided that I'm probably going to pick up another gasoline generator, just because this one is 10 years old, but still runs good. The advantage of a small gas generator is that I can move it around and put it in the back of the truck when I need to work somewhere without electricity.

The bad parts is that it has limited capacity (and someone else could put it in the back of their truck too!).

I would say be sure to analyze your needs and be realistic about it. If you have a well pump and need it to run HVAC equipment, a whole house unit might be money well spent. If not, you might be able to spend less money of some more flexible equipment - small generator, a gas grill for cooking outside when the power's out, a couple of propane or kerosene heaters, etc.

Good luck and take care.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

If you want all that power, that's fine. But we haven't found the need to supplement the entire house. Heck, most of the time that the power goes out, we don't even bother with the generator, we just enjoy the ambiance of a kerosene lantern and the wood stove /QUOTE]

Most modern homes have abandoned the comfort of 19th century technology. At best they may have a fireplace, which is almost worthless for heat.

My house is well insulated with an old Fisher wood stove. It has a flat top that can be used for cooking. Due to low water in the well during the summer, I have also installed a 2500 gallon cistern, and located it so I get low pressure gravity feed water when there is no power. The toilet refills itself, and you can get water out of all the taps. I have a 15 gallon double boiler that will heat plenty of water for a bath on top of the wood stove. The only need for electricity is 500 watts to run the refrigerator or freezer, and those appliances don't have to run as often as most people think. Wall hung oil lamps, candle sconces, and a couple of Aladdin lamps for bright light make the house very comfortable after dark. My wife has commented that the comfort of our home doesn't change when the power goes out. That's high praise, since during the last power outage she was down with the flu and really sick.

Life is entirely different for my neighbors, who have a modern, all electric triple wide mobile home. A power outage means they lose heat, cooking and water. They have to haul in water just to flush the toilet. Without electricity, their modern home is virtually uninhabitable, without even basic sanitation. They desperately need a good generator, which of course they don't have. During the above mentioned 5 day power outage, their only way of cooking was standing outside using the hot plate of their gas barbecue. They used a bucket of hot water to take sponge baths.

The need for a whole house generator should be evaluated based on what the rest of the physical plant is like. If you're seriously screwed without power, you probably need one. If you have other options, you can skip the hassle and expense. Like you, I don't even bother to get the generator out until the second day of the power outage, and then it only runs for a couple hours a day.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

A couple questions:

How do maintenance costs of diesel compare to NG and propane. Years (decades, really) ago there was a push to convert cars to NG and one of the arguments was that it burned cleaner and engines would last longer.

Diesel pickups, as I understand it, require more frequent oil changes and some use very expensive filters.

So what's the maintenance situation for diesel? How often do you change the oil, what do filters cost?

NG and LPG are very low ash, so cylinder deposits are not a problem. They also don't have as much power as gasoline, so there is less stress on the engine. Yes, the engines last much longer.

Diesel engines also last longer than gasoline. I'm talking low RPM air cooled diesel here, not the 3600 RPM air cooled screamers that self-destruct in short order. The typical oil change interval on a diesel is 100 hours, and you have to use diesel rated oil. Modern diesel oils are designed for ultra low sulfur fuel, so if you decide to run your diesel on stove oil you need to shorten that oil change interval.