Will the CK27 be "enough" tractor

[IslandTractor]

There is something about the CK HST's where it doesn't seem the full power is reaching the ground. Not sure if it's relief settings or simply losses in the tranny. In my test drives the geared tractors were distinctly stronger. The HST's just seemed to be "stifled" in my test drives..

Gittyup I don't know if you have a lot of experience with HSTs. Some folks who notice what you have reported are not using the HST correctly. There is a counter intuitive "feature" to an HST which results in more actual power making it to the ground when you do NOT press the pedal to the floor. Max power with an HST at a given engine RPM is usually acheived with only partial depression of the pedal. I don't know if this holds true for the new "40" generation of Kubota HSTs but I believe it is true of the earlier generation HSTs such as are on the Kiotis. Max speed is with full pedal depression but that is different.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

With my Mahindra 3215 HST, I can pull my 700lb 66"wide box blade in mid range about any where on my 80 acres. I doubt that I can do the same with a 72" unit. I can not imagine having to work in low range. It would take forever to get anything done. If you think that these tractors need to do all heavy work in low range, well that certainly is not the case with ANY of my machines and I have several and none of my implements are to small for my tractors.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Twice as fast? Really? I doubt it would be any faster at all for most uses. I pull a 6' very heavy gannon box (~900 lbs) behind my CK25 gear. Pulls it with no problem while cutting virgin compacted soil. Impossible to work it any faster and still maintain control. Maybe if just moving around some loose, sandy stuff on flat, straight terrain, you could go real fast. But, I couldn't. It would be neither effective nor safe.
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Well, not quite. My 3215 pulls 2.8MPH in low range and 5.1MPH in mid range. Yes it will and does pull a full load of dirt up hill in mid range. I can't even imagine working in low range all the time. I only use low range when rototilling.

Again, the equipment that some of you have for YOUR conditions and capabilities is good for YOU. Everyone has somewhat different circumstances and what works GREAT for you does not in any way mean that it applies to everyone.

 

[IslandTractor]

With my Mahindra 3215 HST, I can pull my 700lb 66"wide box blade in mid range about any where on my 80 acres. I doubt that I can do the same with a 72" unit. I can not imagine having to work in low range. It would take forever to get anything done. If you think that these tractors need to do all heavy work in low range, well that certainly is not the case with ANY of my machines and I have several and none of my implements are to small for my tractors.

That's coz you're just pulling sand! That is very dry granular soil you have there. You couldn't do that in New England where dirt is dirt!:laughing:

 

[earljr59]

I have to comment... all good opinions here, cant really disagree with most of it. If you feel the need for a bigger tractor, go buy one. As for the need for speed,it reminds me back in the late 70's. I was a young cat driver learning the art of building locations and moving the oil rigs. Like all young men I felt the need for speed and felt like thats what was needed to make a show and get er done. On the other cat was An experienced ol guy who I respected and wanted to impress with my skills.He was retired,drawing social security.working as much as the government would tolerate at the time. He told me we could try and outdo each other all day or work together and make it easier on us both. And when it comes to dirtwork ,slow and good go together. Fast and good doesnt apply to gradework. And He said I ought to quit jumping off the cat,when I get older I would regret it.I would be crawling off like him at the end of the day. 35 years later and I have to agree.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

That's coz you're just pulling sand! That is very dry granular soil you have there. You couldn't do that in New England where dirt is dirt!:laughing:

Actually we have very little sand, it is either decomposed granite which when it is hard and dry will stop most anything and top soil. Pictures can be deceiving. We do not have the rocks that so many have.

As we all know, moisture content makes all the difference with how a dirt working job goes. Does this look like sand to you?

 

[MtnViewRanch]

I have to comment... all good opinions here, cant really disagree with most of it. If you feel the need for a bigger tractor, go buy one. As for the need for speed,it reminds me back in the late 70's. I was a young cat driver learning the art of building locations and moving the oil rigs. Like all young men I felt the need for speed and felt like thats what was needed to make a show and get er done. On the other cat was An experienced ol guy who I respected and wanted to impress with my skills.He was retired,drawing social security.working as much as the government would tolerate at the time. He told me we could try and outdo each other all day or work together and make it easier on us both. And when it comes to dirtwork ,slow and good go together. Fast and good doesnt apply to gradework. And He said I ought to quit jumping off the cat,when I get older I would regret it.I would be crawling off like him at the end of the day. 35 years later and I have to agree.

When I first got my little Case 310 dozer, I only worked it in 1st gear, but with many hours on the machine I can now do many of the things that I use to only do in 1st gear in 2nd. Not only as good but better. Everything does not have to be done at a snails pace. That is not to say that there are times when you shouldn't work at a slower pace, just that you do not have to do all tasks slow to be able to do them well.

 

[Gittyup]

Gittyup I don't know if you have a lot of experience with HSTs. Some folks who notice what you have reported are not using the HST correctly. There is a counter intuitive "feature" to an HST which results in more actual power making it to the ground when you do NOT press the pedal to the floor. Max power with an HST at a given engine RPM is usually acheived with only partial depression of the pedal. I don't know if this holds true for the new "40" generation of Kubota HSTs but I believe it is true of the earlier generation HSTs such as are on the Kiotis. Max speed is with full pedal depression but that is different.

I own and operate an HST; have been doing so for 18 years. I fully understand how to use them to max. power.

 

[IslandTractor]

I own and operate an HST; have been doing so for 18 years. I fully understand how to use them to max. power.

Well, I guess that rules out operator error!

 

[kiotiken]

With my Mahindra 3215 HST, I can pull my 700lb 66"wide box blade in mid range about any where on my 80 acres. I doubt that I can do the same with a 72" unit. I can not imagine having to work in low range. It would take forever to get anything done. If you think that these tractors need to do all heavy work in low range, well that certainly is not the case with ANY of my machines and I have several and none of my implements are to small for my tractors.

Ya, sorry, I have to agree with MtnViewRanch, I'd pull my hair out if I had to use low range all the time. The Kioti CK line (not sure about the DK`s) has one issue that I HATE and I don't think is common among HST tractors, reverse in all ranges is slower than forward. I could put a brick on the treadle when backing up in low, jump off, go make a coffee and come back with plenty of time to spare, it's just ridiculous. This is a little of an issue plowing snow too, mid range is OK going forwards, but painful when backing up for the next pass.

I have a 60" box blade. I can pull it around with the rippers up or just breaking ground all day in mid range. I don`t think it`s undersized at all because it`s more than my tractor can handle in mid range in some cases. I took advantage of the drought last summer and reworked the stream that went dry at the back of my property. It was still very wet and nothing but clay. I did pretty well, but did have to jump down to low every now and then and I don't think I would have had to with 5 extra hp.

I also agree with IslandTractor, HST is a little counter intuitive some times and takes a little time to get used to. When the tractor starts struggling, you actually have to back off a little and you're usually fine. If I couldn't get the power I needed to the ground with an HST tractor, I'd look at getting more power in the same line, as you can with Kioti, or moving to a bigger tractor with HST. For me and my uses, it's the only way to go.

 

[Gittyup]

When I first got my little Case 310 dozer, I only worked it in 1st gear, but with many hours on the machine I can now do many of the things that I use to only do in 1st gear in 2nd. Not only as good but better. Everything does not have to be done at a snails pace. That is not to say that there are times when you shouldn't work at a slower pace, just that you do not have to do all tasks slow to be able to do them well.

Sorry, but your California soil is much lighter than the wet dense clay mixed with shale and rocks that is so common here. You soil looks like it's pretty easy digging to me: light, dry, and shale free.

Also, high and low range are much different on the gear vs HST for the CKs, with the HST having 3 ranges and the gear only two. In low range, fourth gear, speed is ~ 4 MPH on my tractor. I pull my box in 2nd or 3rd because it's fast enough. Sometimes I use 4th, but often that's too fast, not allowing me sufficient time to make fine adjustments as the terrain varies up and down.

 

[kiotiken]

Also, high and low range are much different on the gear vs HST for the CKs, with the HST having 3 ranges and the gear only two.

I'll give you that. My JD 955 was a 2 range HST and I never used high gear. I was excited to get a 3 range HST with my CK30, but I'm finding I almost preferred the 2 range, it gave me the speed I wanted and the power I needed.

Here's a good example of the difference hp and weight make. The 955 was less than 2000 lbs + the FEL and 33hp. It could dig better with the tires than the FEL, in either range :laughing:

Nothing wrong with gear tractors or the CK25/27, but the OP originally asked about HST tractors, and with that in mind, I'd recommend the CK30/35 and say I'd buy the CK35HST if I could hit the reset button.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Sorry, but your California soil is much lighter than the wet dense clay mixed with shale and rocks that is so common here. You soil looks like it's pretty easy digging to me: light, dry, and shale free.

Also, high and low range are much different on the gear vs HST for the CKs, with the HST having 3 ranges and the gear only two. In low range, fourth gear, speed is ~ 4 MPH on my tractor. I pull my box in 2nd or 3rd because it's fast enough. Sometimes I use 4th, but often that's too fast, not allowing me sufficient time to make fine adjustments as the terrain varies up and down.

You are correct, our soil is pretty much a dream to work with. This puts different loads on a machine vs what it sounds like you have to work with.

You have made my point perfectly, everyone does not have your conditions and therefore why should one purchase to meet your conditions.

 

[IndyIan]

Well, not quite. My 3215 pulls 2.8MPH in low range and 5.1MPH in mid range. Yes it will and does pull a full load of dirt up hill in mid range. I can't even imagine working in low range all the time. I only use low range when rototilling.

Again, the equipment that some of you have for YOUR conditions and capabilities is good for YOU. Everyone has somewhat different circumstances and what works GREAT for you does not in any way mean that it applies to everyone.

Its interesting to see how low, your low range is, the DK40-50 with Ags or Inds top speed is 3.5mph or 25% faster. Our mid range is only a bit taller at 6 mph though.
Makes a bit of a difference when we are talking about how effective a tractor is in each range though.
From what I've found so far with the HST is that it will put down the full torque of the engine in the upper 1/3 of the tractors speed in each range. In low range the HST always produces more torque than traction at any speed, but in mid range and high I can blow the relief valve at low speeds without the engine really working, but once you get going the HST can load the engine to its maximum in each range. The first time I could actually see the exhaust on my tractor was out on the road in high, as I could actually make the tractor open up the injection pump for a sustained run.
So I might be able to pull the full box blade up a slope at 4mph in medium range but not at 0.5mph, I don't have a box blade yet so I'll have to see.

Most of my soil contains many fist size rocks, a few volley ball sized, a few less beach balls, and the odd VW. So doing anything in virgin ground is going to happen in low range anyways just to make sure the sudden stops don't break something. Maybe out on the driveway once I get a good layer of grade A gravel going, I'll move that in medium range.

 

[Gittyup]

You are correct, our soil is pretty much a dream to work with. This puts different loads on a machine vs what it sounds like you have to work with.

You have made my point perfectly, everyone does not have your conditions and therefore why should one purchase to meet your conditions.

Still miss the point: you can't compare low range on the HST to low range on the gear. They aren't the same. The gear travels faster in low range while giving maximum power. If you aren't in low range, you aren't getting maximum power.

I stick by my recommendation: HST get the 35. Otherwise, get the 27 in gear; it'll perform better than or equal to the 27/30 HSTs. If you have to have HST, get the 35. The CK35HST is an awesome rig.

 

[IslandTractor]

Still miss the point: you can't compare low range on the HST to low range on the gear. They aren't the same. The gear travels faster in low range while giving maximum power. If you aren't in low range, you aren't getting maximum power.

I stick by my recommendation: HST get the 35. Otherwise, get the 27 in gear; it'll perform better than or equal to the 27/30 HSTs. If you have to have HST, get the 35. The CK35HST is an awesome rig.

I would add that anyone spending the kind of bucks needed for a CK35HST should stop for a moment and at least consider the next step to the DK lineup. There is a much bigger difference between the CK35 and the DK40se than there is between the CK27 or even the CK20 and CK35 in just about all ways except perhaps pure mowing.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Still miss the point: you can't compare low range on the HST to low range on the gear. They aren't the same. The gear travels faster in low range while giving maximum power. If you aren't in low range, you aren't getting maximum power.

I stick by my recommendation: HST get the 35. Otherwise, get the 27 in gear; it'll perform better than or equal to the 27/30 HSTs. If you have to have HST, get the 35. The CK35HST is an awesome rig.

That statement goes for anything. I want enough power to get the job done in a timely manor without having to rely on low range whether it is HST or gear. So if it takes a CK35HST in mid range to out perform a CK27 gear in low range, so be it. Yes it may not be as great a difference between gear and HST. Yes maybe the CK27 gear will out perform the
CK30HST. Who cares? If a person wants HST, then they are best off with the max HP in that frame size. Maybe the $$$$ is a factor in a decision, maybe not.

The way you guys talk, I should have bought a 5520 (55HP) instead of my 7520, (75HP) same tractor, just less hp. I could be doing all my chores in 1st or 2nd gear instead of 6th,7th or even 8th.

I give up, you win. Lets have a :drink: and move on. :thumbsup:

 

[Gittyup]

That statement goes for anything. I want enough power to get the job done in a timely manor without having to rely on low range whether it is HST or gear. So if it takes a CK35HST in mid range to out perform a CK27 gear in low range, so be it. Yes it may not be as great a difference between gear and HST. Yes maybe the CK27 gear will out perform the
CK30HST. Who cares? If a person wants HST, then they are best off with the max HP in that frame size. Maybe the $$$$ is a factor in a decision, maybe not.

The way you guys talk, I should have bought a 5520 (55HP) instead of my 7520, (75HP) same tractor, just less hp. I could be doing all my chores in 1st or 2nd gear instead of 6th,7th or even 8th.

I give up, you win. Lets have a :drink: and move on. :thumbsup:

Brian, max hp in HST IS my recommendation. And I bet my 4th gear low range is about as fast as mid range HST in the CKs at full peddle. BTW, do you own a CK? Have you used one for chores? All HSTs aren't the same.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Brian, max hp in HST IS my recommendation. And I bet my 4th gear low range is about as fast as mid range HST in the CKs at full peddle. BTW, do you own a CK? Have you used one for chores? All HSTs aren't the same.

No I do not own a Kioti. I looked at them and was going to purchase one from Wallace, but then decided that I wanted an HST and I was not comfortable with the CK treadle. Went with the Mahindra 3215HST and have been happy with it. By the way, the 3215 is rated at 32hp, but dynos out at 34hp. :thumbsup:

 

[IndyIan]

Yes maybe the CK27 gear will out perform the
CK30HST. Who cares? If a person wants HST, then they are best off with the max HP in that frame size. Maybe the $$$$ is a factor in a decision, maybe not.

The way you guys talk, I should have bought a 5520 (55HP) instead of my 7520, (75HP) same tractor, just less hp. I could be doing all my chores in 1st or 2nd gear instead of 6th,7th or even 8th.

I give up, you win. Lets have a :drink: and move on. :thumbsup:

Its fun debating tractors though:laughing:
I think in your case where you seem to make miles of roads out of the desert, then extra hp is not wasted at all. In my case I think all the DK50 would do is maybe run a box blade fractionally faster, but probably not since the HST's have all the same settings and it seems in mid range at lower speeds its the HST that's the limiting factor, not the HP... The 50 would probably brush hog faster, but I don't have one and I'm not sure I'm getting one. I'm not planning on a snow blower either so maybe I'll never ever wish I had the extra ponies? Maybe if I sell the tractor but I can show perspective buyer the shop manual with all the specs and do a decent sales pitch that unless your using maximum pto hp alot, you won't miss the few hp difference.