Old Barn Repair, ideas wanted.....

[mooseracing]

Like all extremely cheap hobby farmers I have an old barn, ~100 yrs or so. And like alot of owners, the PO didn't take good care of it.

So that brings me to the front sill beam. The PO didn't want gutters apparently and was ok with the water splashing and rotting out the sill beam at the ramp/doors and ruining the floor beams.

The posts going up to the roof are still in good shape. Every thing I read says to replace the entire length of the sill. It's going to be really hard to find something that long unless I do a 2xX glued/screwed/staggered.

Would it really be that bad to replace this crappy section, then use metal plates to tie it to the posts, beams, and rest of the sill.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

Would it really be that bad to replace this crappy section, then use metal plates to tie it to the posts, beams, and rest of the sill.

I'm as interested as you to see the responses as I'm not an engineer, architect, or carpenter. My first thought is that if you do replace only a section, be sure to do it over a support. I.e. don't leave the joint hanging in mid air.

 

[BeezFun]

Is there a crawlspace or lower level? I can't tell what photo #4 is, is it looking straight down at the floor? What are the floor joists made out of and how are they supported along their length?

If I understand what I'm looking at, the sill plate and joists are resting directly on some kind of foundation. Are the vertical wall elements resting on the sill? This is one case where a simple sketch might help more than a photo.

 

[dave1949]

I can't tell either if there is usable space below the floor. It looks like stringers laid on the ground to support the floor boards.

If there is no usable space below the floor, I would look at what you might do with concrete.
Dave.

 

[Rustyiron]

Looks like a regular old "bank barn" I don't see any prob. replacing only the rotten part of the sill, prolly most of the rot is in the center at the door area where the door is (was). As for the floor beams (joists) you could go back (towards the center beam) to solid wood and "sandwich" the old beam with some new timber on each side, attached with some heavy thru bolts. Going all the way back and bearing on the center beam would be better, this would only require a timber next to any rotten beams.

 

[mooseracing]

Yep sorry, every barn around here is this style...... There is the lower half in the ground, cement floors, and stone foundation.

Picture #4 is correct, lookign down at the floor. The floor beams/joist (sorry don't know terminology) look like they were mortised (?) into the old sill, which I Would do if I can find some beams.

I haven't had good luck tracking down old beams that aren't worth gold, tele poles; so I may jsut be going the route of treated 6x6 from the limber yard.

I'm trying to figure why they replace a whole sill? I figure if I tie the replacement piece back to the old sill with steel plate and large bolts it should be acting like one large piece.

I'll try and see if I can get a picture from the bottom too, I don't have much lighting down there though.

 

[Carl_NH]

Mooseracing,

I had the idnetical problem with my barn 20 yrs ago on another property. Basically the entrance sill rotted away.

Also in my case the floor joists were 6-8" round pine 2' on center so it was "springy" to say the least.

Solution: It looks like you have a bow in the middle so first: Get underneath and on the bottom side of the floor on the left and right sides put a wood plate 2x10 x 18" long as a pad then jack up the floor so its about level.

Get a 2x12 x length and cut it in between the back joists and attach (lag bolt) to the existing cross beam. You might need to add a support under this depending how "springy" your floor is now. Then run some 2x8 or 2x10 PT sttingers along the existing joists with joist hangers on the cross beam in the back and then rest them on the front barn wall.

Then install a new double header PT 2x8 or 2x10 as the sill plate then put your new boards down. I sort of marked up your first photo.. The red are the front and back joists and the black are the "sisters" for the existing joists.

The 2x dimensions I used are approximate use what ever seems logical but I would not use less than a 2x8 sister joists if possible.

Its not hard, just hard work.

 

[mooseracing]

The bow is from those joists being shot for the first 3ft, I am planning on pulling them all out and replacing them along with that section of floor about to the back red line your drew in the picture. It may take a little longer but they need to come out, and the floor needs some work anyways, so somewhat easier. As that is where those joist connect perpendicular to another beam running the distance of the barn, that is the middle.

Do you think 2x's would be enough? I was planning on 6x6's so they were dimensionally close to the logs that were there. I would like to be able to at least get my big truck (~7500lb's) in there if I need to work on it.

I wish I could get pictures of the other side, I'm not sure if they ground grain up there (texture of the floor looks different) or what, but all the tree joists are curved down. I'm debating on pulling that floor out and leaving it out so I could put a hoist in the bottom for easier vehicle repair. But I have to quit starting projects, I have too many.

 

[Carl_NH]

OK - Understood,

Do you plan to rip up the flooring and put in a completely new floor or do you intend to work from the bottom side?

If you plan to work from the bottom side, I would jack it up and crown it 1/4" higher, and put in 2- 2x10 or 2x12 12" on center then rip out the old beams.

If your main center beam is big 12" deep and stong enough to support joist hangers then run 2x10's or 12's every 12" OC. The key will be the joist hanger on the center beam and if it is deep enough you could lag a 2x4 on the bottom in addition to the joist hangers supporting under the new joists.

Rather than a 6x6 you would be better off with two 2x10s laminated together and if you want you could make a beam using 3/4" plywood sandwich in the middle and gluing/nailing together.

I dont know your span but mine was 14' so we used 2x12's 12" OC and it was strong - I had an 71 F250 with a plow (roughly 6000lbs) and didnt bother it..

 

[crbr]

Good thread

 

[quicksandfarmer]

It would help to know the overall dimensions of the barn.

If the sill is supported over its entire length you don't need to replace the whole thing. You don't even need metal plate or bolts. The job of the sill is to spread the load to the foundation, and you want the sill to be reasonably close to the same stiffness for its length, there's no spot where the sill bends and creates a point load on the foundation. A lap joint held together with nails should be fine.

One thing they do today that wasn't done back in the day is fastening the sill to the foundation to prevent horizontal movement. I had a contractor replace the sill on my old barn. The replacement was a piece of pressure treated 6x6, joined with lap joints. It was set in a bed of concrete on top of the the stone foundation, with threaded rods set into the concrete going through holes drilled into the sill. I feel this is a good way of doing it.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Just to follow up, I went out and looked at my sill repair today. The lap joint is halfway between two vertical posts, a point of minimal loading. One piece of sill overlaps on top of the other (rather than side by side). The overlap is about 9 inches wide. The thickness of the two parts of the joint is not equal, the top piece is about 1.5 inches thick and the bottom is about 4 inches. The top is nailed into the bottom with four 16d nails.

This was done by a guy who has been repairing buildings like this for 30 years.

 

[Carl_NH]

Quicksandfarmer,

A picture of your repair would be great - replacing the sill or beam that sits on the foundation is part of the process here but not the main issue here - its tying in the floor joists that are rotted on the ends and are round not square into the sill.

If you are referring to lapping the joists into the sill plate that's a different story.. so a picture would speak a 1000 words..

 

[mrcaptainbob]

I have a 25 x 35 barn set in a hill side. The basement entry wall was severely compromised. The sag was close to six inches. After using jackposts (lolly columns) to raise the barn, we managed to get it within a half inch of level along the 25' depth. Along the 35' length it's about the same in sag. Removed the rotted wall that set beneath that rotted 12x12x36 beam and chain sawed taht in chunks to remove. Dug for a footing and center located approach for a 12' opening. After the footing and approach was set, we then built a 16" oc stud wall of 2x6. We built our own header beam for the opening with 2x10's and 1/2" osb glued and nailed between each set of planks. The side posts were tripled 2x6's. Rock solid now for six years or so.
Here's a Flickr link to the pics:
Barn Foundation Repair - a set on Flickr
Here's a link to the pouring of the 'crete:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11131022@N04/sets/72157601619302455/
Here's a link to the 'before' pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11131022@N04/sets/72157601619302339/

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Quicksandfarmer,

A picture of your repair would be great - replacing the sill or beam that sits on the foundation is part of the process here but not the main issue here - its tying in the floor joists that are rotted on the ends and are round not square into the sill.

If you are referring to lapping the joists into the sill plate that's a different story.. so a picture would speak a 1000 words..

My foundation is over two feet wide. While the ends of the joists were rotten, they still had good wood sitting on the foundation. We bedded them in concrete and left them.

As far as I know there are only two ways to fix joists -- either sister them, or put a new beam perpendicular and support it with columns or a bearing wall. Sistering round beams is a tricky business and I would be tempted just to replace them with modern lumber unless there is something special about them.

 

[2manyrocks]

Looks to me you could support the rotted joists with their own footer at a point where the wood is still good so they end up being the same length. Then nail a 2x header on the rotted joists to which you will attach regular 2x joists. That way, you are not trying to have the rotted joists carry their full span anymore, and you are not trying to sister modern 2x lumber onto round joists.

Otherwise, could replace whole joist with new lumber....

 

[rambler]

Looks to me you could support the rotted joists with their own footer at a point where the wood is still good so they end up being the same length. Then nail a 2x header on the rotted joists to which you will attach regular 2x joists. That way, you are not trying to have the rotted joists carry their full span anymore, and you are not trying to sister modern 2x lumber onto round joists.

Otherwise, could replace whole joist with new lumber....

Either of these.

If you use new wood, remeber a lot of the old construction was southern yellow pine or local old-growth hardwood. New wood is much weaker unless you pony up for high-quality, special order stuff.

Laminating 2x is stronger than using today's common timbers. The new wood likes to twist, warp, etc.

I don't understand what this floor spans over; as one mentioned, ripping it all out packing in some gravel & pouring concrete would be my choice if that is a possibility.

--->Paul

 

[mooseracing]

Sorry everyone I have been busy, winters getting way to close, then had to hurry friday night to get hay out of the field before rain.

It would help to know the overall dimensions of the barn.

If the sill is supported over its entire length you don't need to replace the whole thing. You don't even need metal plate or bolts. The job of the sill is to spread the load to the foundation, and you want the sill to be reasonably close to the same stiffness for its length, there's no spot where the sill bends and creates a point load on the foundation.

The barn is about 28x45. This is the traditional style built into the hill with a stone foundation and the lower floor is concrete.

I was worried about the building pulling apart without having a solid one piece sill.


Maybe I'll get in there this evening and try to show some progress. I have about a 1/4 of the floor up. The PO put new floor over the old floor, square nails and all.

It has been slow to pop the wood up and try no to disturb too much, as I have a car and tractor below this floor. Once I get the floor up and go to replace the beams then I will move things out.

 

[mooseracing]

The humidity is slowing me down, so I didn't get much of anything done of the barn.

I still need to buy a few jugs of bora-care

Here is a shot from the bottom looking up

I'm only pulling up floor back to the middle posts, I'll do the back half another year, as they are nowhere near as bad.

This beam under the floor is supporting it well

Ughh, it's going so slow

 

[MotorSeven]

If the rest of those round joists are solid, I would just scab a 2x8/10/12(depending on length of span) on either side. You attachment point on the stone is the tough one...I'm thinking a 2x12 PT flat, then one against the wall attatched to it(forms a "L"), tapcon those in, then use joist hangers on the new wood. Hard to make these calls by looking at pic's...kinda like giving a haircut over the phone.

Something like this: